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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 8, 2018 15:22:13 GMT
I'm afraid I disagree with much of this, I think the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street is long overdue and the opening of Crossrail is the perfect opportunity to implement it. I really don't see what is so awful about the 10/23 proposal, there are a lot of similar routes in London that are not designed for end to end journeys, I'd hardly call the 10/23 useless. Having said that I would rather keep the 10 at Kings Cross but via Marylebone Road with the 30 curtailed at Euston or Warren Street. I do agree that Holborn Circus is a poor terminus for the 25, it should go to Holborn Station or Aldwych for easier onward connections and I don't disagree about the 98 still going to Holborn possibly via Marylebone Road? I think the issue with the 10/23 route is that throughout the whole route there are faster alternatives. People for Paddington will use the 27 for example while people for Westbourne Park are more likely to use the 7 into the area or the 295. I think the whole reason this route has come about is so that TfL don't have to faff around when complains will no doubt flare up about the 23s withdrawal, also probably safe to say that's why TfL haven't decided on a number for the route. I don't see the route lasting very long personally, maybe after a year or two if numbers are low the route possible may just vanish into the books of history replaced by frequency increases on the 7 and 9. With the 25 I think it's just a way of pushing people onto Crossrail, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread there will be no connections at all to Oxford Circus from that corridor anymore, it once had two routes. People will have no choice but to use the Central Line or Crossrail. What I would have done with the 25 is to turn it at Tottenham Court Road using the 8s stand, with the 8 sent towards Russell Square. Once/If the 425 is extended to Ilford the 25 won't have an incredibly large PVR nor will it have to deal with as much people. The route's reliability has improved massively and I don't actually see why it would need to be hacked back in such a way.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jan 8, 2018 16:23:56 GMT
I'm afraid I disagree with much of this, I think the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street is long overdue and the opening of Crossrail is the perfect opportunity to implement it. I really don't see what is so awful about the 10/23 proposal, there are a lot of similar routes in London that are not designed for end to end journeys, I'd hardly call the 10/23 useless. Having said that I would rather keep the 10 at Kings Cross but via Marylebone Road with the 30 curtailed at Euston or Warren Street. I do agree that Holborn Circus is a poor terminus for the 25, it should go to Holborn Station or Aldwych for easier onward connections and I don't disagree about the 98 still going to Holborn possibly via Marylebone Road? I think the issue with the 10/23 route is that throughout the whole route there are faster alternatives. People for Paddington will use the 27 for example while people for Westbourne Park are more likely to use the 7 into the area or the 295. I think the whole reason this route has come about is so that TfL don't have to faff around when complains will no doubt flare up about the 23s withdrawal, also probably safe to say that's why TfL haven't decided on a number for the route. I don't see the route lasting very long personally, maybe after a year or two if numbers are low the route possible may just vanish into the books of history replaced by frequency increases on the 7 and 9. With the 25 I think it's just a way of pushing people onto Crossrail, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread there will be no connections at all to Oxford Circus from that corridor anymore, it once had two routes. People will have no choice but to use the Central Line or Crossrail. What I would have done with the 25 is to turn it at Tottenham Court Road using the 8s stand, with the 8 sent towards Russell Square. Once/If the 425 is extended to Ilford the 25 won't have an incredibly large PVR nor will it have to deal with as much people. The route's reliability has improved massively and I don't actually see why it would need to be hacked back in such a way. I can easily see the 9 fully replacing route 10 if frequency increases can cope. The 7 and 23 do have different routeing between Bayswater (Westbourne Grove) and Ladbroke Station. However perhaps the 7 could be diverted via the 23's route with the 70 covering Westbourne Park Road and Chepstow Road. The 452 could then easily be re-routed to Westbourne Park via the 23 instead of Kensal Rise as per TFL's original consultation. With the 7 being cut back to Marble Arch (having already been cut back from Russell Square to Oxford Circus), I think there is scope for a short extension from East Acton to serve the new development and transport hub at Old Oak Common, providing a direct link into central London.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 8, 2018 19:37:36 GMT
With the 7 being cut back to Marble Arch (having already been cut back from Russell Square to Oxford Circus), I think there is scope for a short extension from East Acton to serve the new development and transport hub at Old Oak Common, providing a direct link into central London. It is far more likely that route 7 will disappear entirely if we ever get to the point of Old Oak Common being redeveloped. Assuming there is funding from the redevelopment then it will most likely restructure local services over West London to feed into the new Overground, HS2 and Crossrail station at OOC. Links to the West End by bus will go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 20:16:49 GMT
With the 7 being cut back to Marble Arch (having already been cut back from Russell Square to Oxford Circus), I think there is scope for a short extension from East Acton to serve the new development and transport hub at Old Oak Common, providing a direct link into central London. It is far more likely that route 7 will disappear entirely if we ever get to the point of Old Oak Common being redeveloped. Assuming there is funding from the redevelopment then it will most likely restructure local services over West London to feed into the new Overground, HS2 and Crossrail station at OOC. Links to the West End by bus will go. I agree, although I don’t like the idea. Personally I think the only new routes in the future will be short hop feeder services. However, HS2 may not happen. Carillon are looking increasingly likely to go under. And the chalk aquifers under the Misbourne Valley have been proven to be unstable. www.hs2amersham.org.uk/index.html?News/OurChalk.html
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Post by vjaska on Jan 8, 2018 20:24:53 GMT
It is far more likely that route 7 will disappear entirely if we ever get to the point of Old Oak Common being redeveloped. Assuming there is funding from the redevelopment then it will most likely restructure local services over West London to feed into the new Overground, HS2 and Crossrail station at OOC. Links to the West End by bus will go. I agree, although I don’t like the idea. Personally I think the only new routes in the future will be short hop feeder services. However, HS2 may not happen. Carillon are looking increasingly likely to go under. And the chalk aquifers under the Misbourne Valley have been proven to be unstable. www.hs2amersham.org.uk/index.html?News/OurChalk.htmlSame here - I’d rather see the 7 extended to Ealing Broadway instead though I won’t hold my breath.
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Post by busaholic on Jan 8, 2018 21:51:07 GMT
Personally, although I accept the initial pedestrianisation of Oxford Street is a done deal, I think there is still a possibility that the second (Eastern) phase may not happen so long as it is not too far advanced in planning by the time the effects of the first phase are realised. As for the Marble Arch end, I'm confident it will never happen. Why, when TfL were splashing out all that money for Crossrail (PLEASE don't think I'm knocking Crossrail, by the way, on the whole I think it's admirable) did they not buy/ compulsorily purchase sufficient space around Hanover Square and Centre Point to terminate buses? Absolutely no need to create a bus station in the modern sense, something along the lines of the old Aldgate or Morden or more modern Euston would suffice, so some through routes mixed in with the terminators. That might just about mitigate some of the effects of these proposals. For Marble Arch I have no answers, unless something radical like an underground bus station was considered. Think Kingsway Subway!
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 8, 2018 22:11:17 GMT
The 10/23 is no different at all to the 80 and 163.
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Post by sid on Jan 8, 2018 23:08:54 GMT
I'm afraid I disagree with much of this, I think the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street is long overdue and the opening of Crossrail is the perfect opportunity to implement it. I really don't see what is so awful about the 10/23 proposal, there are a lot of similar routes in London that are not designed for end to end journeys, I'd hardly call the 10/23 useless. Having said that I would rather keep the 10 at Kings Cross but via Marylebone Road with the 30 curtailed at Euston or Warren Street. I do agree that Holborn Circus is a poor terminus for the 25, it should go to Holborn Station or Aldwych for easier onward connections and I don't disagree about the 98 still going to Holborn possibly via Marylebone Road? I think the issue with the 10/23 route is that throughout the whole route there are faster alternatives. People for Paddington will use the 27 for example while people for Westbourne Park are more likely to use the 7 into the area or the 295. I think the whole reason this route has come about is so that TfL don't have to faff around when complains will no doubt flare up about the 23s withdrawal, also probably safe to say that's why TfL haven't decided on a number for the route. I don't see the route lasting very long personally, maybe after a year or two if numbers are low the route possible may just vanish into the books of history replaced by frequency increases on the 7 and 9. With the 25 I think it's just a way of pushing people onto Crossrail, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread there will be no connections at all to Oxford Circus from that corridor anymore, it once had two routes. People will have no choice but to use the Central Line or Crossrail. What I would have done with the 25 is to turn it at Tottenham Court Road using the 8s stand, with the 8 sent towards Russell Square. Once/If the 425 is extended to Ilford the 25 won't have an incredibly large PVR nor will it have to deal with as much people. The route's reliability has improved massively and I don't actually see why it would need to be hacked back in such a way. Somebody else made the point about the proposed 10/23 being similar to route 80. I wondered about rerouting the 25 from Holborn Circus via the 341 route to Aldwych and on to Trafalgar Square with the 8 being returned to Oxford Circus via Mortimer Street. Inevitably there will be some expectation for bus users to switch to Crossrail.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Jan 9, 2018 17:17:40 GMT
An example of a bus only section which is a classic example of it doesn't work is the section of Rye Lane, Peckham between Hanover Park and Peckham High Street. Buses aren't allowed to overtake, pedestrians have to cross a busy cycle lane and the buses to cross the road and isn't generally pleasant at all.
Pedestrianising that part of Rye Lane would be more beneficial to shoppers and cyclists than having double deckers clogging up the road.
Add that to North End, Croydon and see why it wouldn't work.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 9, 2018 18:26:59 GMT
An example of a bus only section which is a classic example of it doesn't work is the section of Rye Lane, Peckham between Hanover Park and Peckham High Street. Buses aren't allowed to overtake, pedestrians have to cross a busy cycle lane and the buses to cross the road and isn't generally pleasant at all. Pedestrianising that part of Rye Lane would be more beneficial to shoppers and cyclists than having double deckers clogging up the road. Add that to North End, Croydon and see why it wouldn't work. And the counter argument is how many people arrive in Peckham town centre by means other than bus? I suspect the proportion is pretty low for cycles, walking, rail and private car. Buses bring in thousands of people from a wide area given the amazing spread of Peckham's bus network. I have no idea where else the buses would divert to so you are really proposing a massive restructuring of bus routes over a wide area to avoid central Peckham thus making it far more difficult for people to reach all those local shops who depend on bus passengers. I have yet to be remotely convinced that ripping bus services out of the heart of town and city centres works for anyone. Forcing bus passengers to walk to remote bus stations or to stops on ring roads or similar does nothing to encourage patronage. I'd argue that there is shed loads of evidence from across the UK that such practices wreck bus services and just shove people into cars. London is slightly different given lower car ownership levels but people will just go to places like Camberwell or Lewisham where bus access is rather easier and more convenient. The simple fact is that public transport, cycling and walking should be able to co-exist effectively in town centres and elsewhere. That is what the Mayor's transport strategy is all about. Whether London can get the balance right remains to be seen as I can't think of an "exemplar" town centre anywhere that has good bus access, a nice walking environment, limited car access / low congestion and is attractive to cyclists. Almost everywhere is a mess.
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Post by sid on Jan 9, 2018 18:33:37 GMT
An example of a bus only section which is a classic example of it doesn't work is the section of Rye Lane, Peckham between Hanover Park and Peckham High Street. Buses aren't allowed to overtake, pedestrians have to cross a busy cycle lane and the buses to cross the road and isn't generally pleasant at all. Pedestrianising that part of Rye Lane would be more beneficial to shoppers and cyclists than having double deckers clogging up the road. Add that to North End, Croydon and see why it wouldn't work. And the counter argument is how many people arrive in Peckham town centre by means other than bus? I suspect the proportion is pretty low for cycles, walking, rail and private car. Buses bring in thousands of people from a wide area given the amazing spread of Peckham's bus network. I have no idea where else the buses would divert to so you are really proposing a massive restructuring of bus routes over a wide area to avoid central Peckham thus making it far more difficult for people to reach all those local shops who depend on bus passengers. I have yet to be remotely convinced that ripping bus services out of the heart of town and city centres works for anyone. Forcing bus passengers to walk to remote bus stations or to stops on ring roads or similar does nothing to encourage patronage. I'd argue that there is shed loads of evidence from across the UK that such practices wreck bus services and just shove people into cars. London is slightly different given lower car ownership levels but people will just go to places like Camberwell or Lewisham where bus access is rather easier and more convenient. The simple fact is that public transport, cycling and walking should be able to co-exist effectively in town centres and elsewhere. That is what the Mayor's transport strategy is all about. Whether London can get the balance right remains to be seen as I can't think of an "exemplar" town centre anywhere that has good bus access, a nice walking environment, limited car access / low congestion and is attractive to cyclists. Almost everywhere is a mess. Buses would simply go via Clayton Road instead so no massive upheaval would be required.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Jan 9, 2018 18:38:43 GMT
And the counter argument is how many people arrive in Peckham town centre by means other than bus? I suspect the proportion is pretty low for cycles, walking, rail and private car. Buses bring in thousands of people from a wide area given the amazing spread of Peckham's bus network. I have no idea where else the buses would divert to so you are really proposing a massive restructuring of bus routes over a wide area to avoid central Peckham thus making it far more difficult for people to reach all those local shops who depend on bus passengers. I have yet to be remotely convinced that ripping bus services out of the heart of town and city centres works for anyone. Forcing bus passengers to walk to remote bus stations or to stops on ring roads or similar does nothing to encourage patronage. I'd argue that there is shed loads of evidence from across the UK that such practices wreck bus services and just shove people into cars. London is slightly different given lower car ownership levels but people will just go to places like Camberwell or Lewisham where bus access is rather easier and more convenient. The simple fact is that public transport, cycling and walking should be able to co-exist effectively in town centres and elsewhere. That is what the Mayor's transport strategy is all about. Whether London can get the balance right remains to be seen as I can't think of an "exemplar" town centre anywhere that has good bus access, a nice walking environment, limited car access / low congestion and is attractive to cyclists. Almost everywhere is a mess. Buses would simply go via Clayton Road instead so no massive upheaval would be required. Indeed, it may even work out faster than being stuck in a bus jam on Rye Lane while the front buses are picking up passengers and would shave off a couple of minutes from routes 36, 171, 436 and 345 which would run into the bus station (345 already starts there) instead of the Aylesham Centre bus stop instead.
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Post by sid on Jan 9, 2018 18:55:13 GMT
Buses would simply go via Clayton Road instead so no massive upheaval would be required. Indeed, it may even work out faster than being stuck in a bus jam on Rye Lane while the front buses are picking up passengers and would shave off a couple of minutes from routes 36, 171, 436 and 345 which would run into the bus station (345 already starts there) instead of the Aylesham Centre bus stop instead. Yes I've never seen the sense in the northbound 36,171 and 436 going via Hanover Park rather than straight on like southbound buses do, the bus station might need to be redesigned to accommodate another stop but it's hardly an insurmountable problem. Rye Lane is rather grotty in its current form, the only reservation I would have is bus/rail connections at Peckham Rye but again not an insurmountable problem.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 9, 2018 19:17:26 GMT
An example of a bus only section which is a classic example of it doesn't work is the section of Rye Lane, Peckham between Hanover Park and Peckham High Street. Buses aren't allowed to overtake, pedestrians have to cross a busy cycle lane and the buses to cross the road and isn't generally pleasant at all. Pedestrianising that part of Rye Lane would be more beneficial to shoppers and cyclists than having double deckers clogging up the road. Add that to North End, Croydon and see why it wouldn't work. Funnily enough, that stop on Rye Lane between Hanover Park & Peckham High Street is a ridiculously busy stop due to it being closer to the shops than the bus station - in contrast, the bus station is not as busy so clearly people prefer to grab the bus from Rye Lane. It’s a shame that there isn’t space on that section of Rye Lane but nothing is ever perfect - besides, Peckham needs major regeneration as the place looks absolutely horrendous. North End has enough room for two way bus only working so isn’t the same.
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Post by CircleLineofLife on Jan 9, 2018 22:23:09 GMT
The 98 should not be curtailed at marble arch as its pretty much useless as a lot of people that that route to oxford circus they are just making it redundant. The 7 should a a westbound extention for all these eastbound curtailments is getting maybe to ealing broadway 94 should also get a westbound extention maybe to Brentford or Richmond but that's probably a massive stretch. I think they should just extend the 9 to kings cross and change to the 10 there is nothing you can do about the 113 or 189 happy that night buses destinations are being left untouched such as the N207
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