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Post by redexpress on Nov 7, 2017 20:06:56 GMT
The endless stream of consultations about central London make it very difficult for me to picture what through journeys will be possible after all this goes ahead. And information about the interchange possibilities at Marble Arch would be useful to make sense of this one. I would like to see a '2018 map' of the area so I can get my head around all this. It would help if they could come up with a single coherent plan for the 23 and stick to it. Through journeys? By bus? Nah mate, not round here. If you want a through journey, it's Crossrail. Or maybe the tube, but mostly Crossrail. That investment needs to pay off you know. Buses are for the elderly and/or disabled to make short trips (even though simple journeys like Edgware Road to Oxford Circus will no longer be possible).
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Post by sid on Nov 7, 2017 20:12:45 GMT
The endless stream of consultations about central London make it very difficult for me to picture what through journeys will be possible after all this goes ahead. And information about the interchange possibilities at Marble Arch would be useful to make sense of this one. I would like to see a '2018 map' of the area so I can get my head around all this. It would help if they could come up with a single coherent plan for the 23 and stick to it. Through journeys? By bus? Nah mate, not round here. If you want a through journey, it's Crossrail. Or maybe the tube, but mostly Crossrail. That investment needs to pay off you know. Buses are for the elderly and/or disabled to make short trips (even though simple journeys like Edgware Road to Oxford Circus will no longer be possible). Well as far as I'm aware there will still be regular bus services to faraway places like West Norwood, Putney, Hammersmith, Willesden and North Finchley.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 7, 2017 20:18:16 GMT
Obviously it's going to be done in chunks, it's just not logistically possible to do the whole thing in one go. I meant the consultation and revealing the impacts on the bus network is being done in chunks. I suspect there is some form of "end state" in mind for buses and traffic but they don't want to tell people about it as it would cause an outcry. There has to be an "end state" view to allow the increments to be designed in a coherent way that does not cause issues for later phases. Clearly the physical works will be phased as you say - no disagreement there.
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Post by redexpress on Nov 7, 2017 20:22:21 GMT
Did you know the CCTV in Oxford Street isn't even monitored by anyone routinely. Bear that in mind when you're walking around in early hours across Marble Arch to find your night bus home. Because of how short termist all the plans look and the lack of thought put into issues such as this I wonder if pedestrianisation will end up halted halfway. The first half will be closed, then the public will start complaining then all the problems will arise etc Thing is, it's not going to be that straightforward. There are lots of benefits to pedestrianisation - look at the artists' impressions of what they want to do with the street, and I can well imagine it becoming quite pleasant during the daytime. If the streetlong artwork is attractive enough that alone will bring people in. People even turned up to gawp at something as simple as the diagonal crossings at Oxford Circus when those were installed a few years ago. That even made the national news FFS. There are certainly lots of drawbacks to pedestrianisation but I don't think it will be unanimously viewed as a disaster. Bus users will be among the biggest losers of the scheme, but bus users are the least likely to get their voices heard anyway. The loudest complaints are likely to come from residents of the surrounding streets. That's not good news for buses either. If roads like Wigmore Street end up suffering, you can bet there'll be a local campaign to get rid of the two bus routes that will be running through there, and the resulting bus network will be even worse off.
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 7, 2017 20:26:22 GMT
Because of how short termist all the plans look and the lack of thought put into issues such as this I wonder if pedestrianisation will end up halted halfway. The first half will be closed, then the public will start complaining then all the problems will arise etc Thing is, it's not going to be that straightforward. There are lots of benefits to pedestrianisation - look at the artists' impressions of what they want to do with the street, and I can well imagine it becoming quite pleasant during the daytime. If the streetlong artwork is attractive enough that alone will bring people in. People even turned up to gawp at something as simple as the diagonal crossings at Oxford Circus when those were installed a few years ago. That even made the national news FFS. There are certainly lots of drawbacks to pedestrianisation but I don't think it will be unanimously viewed as a disaster. Bus users will be among the biggest losers of the scheme, but bus users are the least likely to get their voices heard anyway. The loudest complaints are likely to come from residents of the surrounding streets. That's not good news for buses either. If roads like Wigmore Street end up suffering, you can bet there'll be a local campaign to get rid of the two bus routes that will be running through there, and the resulting bus network will be even worse off.
It will be like ripples on a pond
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 20:44:10 GMT
Did you know the CCTV in Oxford Street isn't even monitored by anyone routinely. Bear that in mind when you're walking around in early hours across Marble Arch to find your night bus home. Oh come on this really is beginning to sound like project fear allover again. No need to be so alarmist mate, calm down !
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Post by rmz19 on Nov 7, 2017 21:07:20 GMT
I really don't understand the rationale behind fusing the 10 and 23 together, the route will end up being a very awkward and indirect 'S' shape route. A silly idea IMO.
It's also ridiculous that the 98 will be curtailed to Marble Arch, the route is very popular to and from Holborn and shortening it will result in a significant amount of passengers overcrowding other routes. It wouldn't be much of an issue sending the 98 down Wigmore Street, three routes along Wigmore Street is a sensible amount.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 7, 2017 21:28:29 GMT
I really don't understand the rationale behind fusing the 10 and 23 together, the route will end up being a very awkward and indirect 'S' shape route. A silly idea IMO. It's also ridiculous that the 98 will be curtailed to Marble Arch, the route is very popular to and from Holborn and shortening it will result in a significant amount of passengers overcrowding other routes. It wouldn't be much of an issue sending the 98 down Wigmore Street, three routes along Wigmore Street is a sensible amount. My only objection to sending the 98 down there is all three routes run much further north than they do south especially in the case of the 139 & 390 which run at night and run no further south than Victoria and Waterloo. The 159 would keep a direct night link to South London then. Otherwise, I’ve no objection.
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Post by Green Kitten on Nov 7, 2017 21:44:16 GMT
If only there was more money in the kitty, London Buses could have done a bit more with the routes in question instead of chopping them. I love the idea of merging (sort-of) the 94 and 137 to create a Shepherd's Bush - Streatham Hill route. Why not swap the 94 and E3 south-west of Turnham Green to link South Chiswick into Central London. The 98 becomes a short route indeed - in place of the 23 plans why not extend the 98 to Wembley or further along where the N98 goes? (You all are better at this than I am haha).
The 390 can cling onto Oxford Street all it wants but you're gonna go some time mate! Divert it via Trafalgar Square, perhaps?
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 7, 2017 21:44:27 GMT
The pedestrianisation of Oxford Street should have happened years ago. Suburban high streets have been pedestrianised over the last 30 years. Can anyone really imagine vehicles going across North End in Croydon in 2017?
Oxford Street has lost out to the two Westfield Shopping Centres which offer a car free shopping experience while offering similar shops. Car free weekends have proven to be successful in the past running up to Christmas. Not to mention the increase in pedestrian/vehicle RTA's in the affected Oxford St. West.
From a bus point of view, two routes running along Wigmore Street is no compensation for the loss of the routes currently. TfL I suspect are expecting customers to use the Central line and Crossrail/Elizabeth line to compensate for the lack of bus services. Would be great if Sadiq offered a £1.50 fare between TCR and Marble Arch to compensate for the lack of buses, but there's no money thanks to the fares freeze and cuts in subsidation.
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Post by ian on Nov 7, 2017 21:50:47 GMT
I am surprised they don't have a clearer analysis of what is going to happen at night, e.g. a map of remaining night bus services.
Are many people (myself included) really going to trek from areas where there is - er, huh, nightlife - to Marble Arch to get a 7, 94, 113 etc?
Not to mention a massacring of night time bus connections. (Is The Elizabeth Line 24/7?)
I can see a whole lot more business for Uber.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 7, 2017 22:02:22 GMT
The pedestrianisation of Oxford Street should have happened years ago. Suburban high streets have been pedestrianised over the last 30 years. Can anyone really imagine vehicles going across North End in Croydon in 2017? Oxford Street has lost out to the two Westfield Shopping Centres which offer a car free shopping experience while offering similar shops. Car free weekends have proven to be successful in the past running up to Christmas. Not to mention the increase in pedestrian/vehicle RTA's in the affected Oxford St. West. From a bus point of view, two routes running along Wigmore Street is no compensation for the loss of the routes currently. TfL I suspect are expecting customers to use the Central line and Crossrail/Elizabeth line to compensate for the lack of bus services. Would be great if Sadiq offered a £1.50 fare between TCR and Marble Arch to compensate for the lack of buses, but there's no money thanks to the fares freeze and cuts in subsidation. With a proper policy regarding congestion, I could of seen North End working with buses only. Croydon is gigantic mess of a place as it stands because there is too much traffic being forced a variety of different roads. Mitcham has recently reverted the pedestrian part of London Road to a bus only road which I think is a brilliant idea which has greatly improved interchange and actually leaves people right by the shops rather than at the side of a former Blockbuster building which had seen better days. Pedestrian areas only work if the right roads are converted such as in Brixton although most of these roads still retain limited vehicle access outside of shopping hours.
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Post by sid on Nov 7, 2017 23:03:36 GMT
The pedestrianisation of Oxford Street should have happened years ago. Suburban high streets have been pedestrianised over the last 30 years. Can anyone really imagine vehicles going across North End in Croydon in 2017? Oxford Street has lost out to the two Westfield Shopping Centres which offer a car free shopping experience while offering similar shops. Car free weekends have proven to be successful in the past running up to Christmas. Not to mention the increase in pedestrian/vehicle RTA's in the affected Oxford St. West. From a bus point of view, two routes running along Wigmore Street is no compensation for the loss of the routes currently. TfL I suspect are expecting customers to use the Central line and Crossrail/Elizabeth line to compensate for the lack of bus services. Would be great if Sadiq offered a £1.50 fare between TCR and Marble Arch to compensate for the lack of buses, but there's no money thanks to the fares freeze and cuts in subsidation. I totally agree and as you say Oxford Street has lost out to the Westfield Centres. North End in Croydon is a good case in point, there were objections to that at the time but would anybody really want to turn the clock back now? Two bus routes along Wigmore Street is probably all that could be reasonably accommodated, yes there is some inconvenience to some bus users but totally outweighed by the benefits of Crossrail.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 7, 2017 23:09:03 GMT
I totally agree and as you say Oxford Street has lost out to the Westfield Centres. North End in Croydon is a good case in point, there were objections to that at the time but would anybody really want to turn the clock back now? Two bus routes along Wigmore Street is probably all that could be reasonably accommodated, yes there is some inconvenience to some bus users but totally outweighed by the benefits of Crossrail. Totally outweighed? hmm, I don't see Crossrail stopping at John Lewis, Oxford Circus or Selfridges. I can see some benefits pedestrianisation will bring but Crossrail does not "totally outweigh" the inconvenience.
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Post by sid on Nov 7, 2017 23:12:07 GMT
I totally agree and as you say Oxford Street has lost out to the Westfield Centres. North End in Croydon is a good case in point, there were objections to that at the time but would anybody really want to turn the clock back now? Two bus routes along Wigmore Street is probably all that could be reasonably accommodated, yes there is some inconvenience to some bus users but totally outweighed by the benefits of Crossrail. Totally outweighed? hmm, I don't see Crossrail stopping at John Lewis, Oxford Circus or Selfridges. I can see some benefits pedestrianisation will bring but Crossrail does not "totally outweigh" the inconvenience. Of course it does, people from as far as Reading and Shenfield are whisked in the west end as well as the capacity freed up on the Central Line.
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