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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2019 18:23:58 GMT
A minute from the previous TfL Board Meeting. One or two interesting points esp the observation from Board Members that not enough has been done to "sell" the proposals. Well what a bleep bleep surprise. Note also the ludicrous way the proposals are branded as "modernisation" as if no "modernisation" had taken place on the bus network for half a century.
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Post by danorak on Jan 23, 2019 21:10:59 GMT
A minute from the previous TfL Board Meeting. One or two interesting points esp the observation from Board Members that not enough has been done to "sell" the proposals. Well what a bleep bleep surprise. Note also the ludicrous way the proposals are branded as "modernisation" as if no "modernisation" had taken place on the bus network for half a century. Pah. It's all very well for them to trot out the old 'Outer London' line but unless it's backed by something tangible, no-one will swallow it. OK, so we have the 404/434 change but that hardly seems like a fair return on the cuts, and the trimming elsewhere in Croydon probably covers most of that resource anyway.
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Post by MoEnviro on Jan 23, 2019 21:20:16 GMT
A minute from the previous TfL Board Meeting. One or two interesting points esp the observation from Board Members that not enough has been done to "sell" the proposals. Well what a bleep bleep surprise. Note also the ludicrous way the proposals are branded as "modernisation" as if no "modernisation" had taken place on the bus network for half a century. Pah. It's all very well for them to trot out the old 'Outer London' line but unless it's backed by something tangible, no-one will swallow it. OK, so we have the 404/434 change but that hardly seems like a fair return on the cuts, and the trimming elsewhere in Croydon probably covers most of that resource anyway. The 232 increases from 15 to 12 minutely at the new contract in August, there will be more on the way. Probably in upcoming new contracts.
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Post by dennistas on Jan 23, 2019 21:41:42 GMT
A minute from the previous TfL Board Meeting. One or two interesting points esp the observation from Board Members that not enough has been done to "sell" the proposals. Well what a bleep bleep surprise. Note also the ludicrous way the proposals are branded as "modernisation" as if no "modernisation" had taken place on the bus network for half a century. Thanks for posting. Will the bus cuts not go ahead now?
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Post by busaholic on Jan 23, 2019 22:56:12 GMT
Pah. It's all very well for them to trot out the old 'Outer London' line but unless it's backed by something tangible, no-one will swallow it. OK, so we have the 404/434 change but that hardly seems like a fair return on the cuts, and the trimming elsewhere in Croydon probably covers most of that resource anyway. The 232 increases from 15 to 12 minutely at the new contract in August, there will be more on the way. Probably in upcoming new contracts. The 232 is mirroring the recent increase in the 112's frequency: not unnaturally, as it's effectively the former eastern end of that route!
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2019 23:36:44 GMT
A minute from the previous TfL Board Meeting. One or two interesting points esp the observation from Board Members that not enough has been done to "sell" the proposals. Well what a bleep bleep surprise. Note also the ludicrous way the proposals are branded as "modernisation" as if no "modernisation" had taken place on the bus network for half a century. Thanks for posting. Will the bus cuts not go ahead now? Err that's not the interpretation I would put on that Board minute. As I've said before I think they will all proceed as planned because TfL desperately need to save the money. There would have to have been some very strong political arm bending going on in the shadows to force City Hall to tell TfL to row back on what was planned. I just can't see that happening. I think this lot of changes *has* to go through for a load of reasons within TfL. TfL will happily ignore all the criticism from the public because they have to. Even if 100% of respondents opposed a change I can still see it going ahead. The fact that 15m kms worth of cuts due 2019/20 simply vanished in the updated Business Plan shows that City Hall have already been scared but not enough to cancel this tranche of changes. I think that is to avoid bad news and virulent campaigns in the run up to the 2020 election. Unfortunately no one in the London Assembly is paying enough attention to buses to make the issue a real headache for the Mayor. The Tories simply won't be believed if they suddenly try to turn themselves into the saviour of the bus network and the Lib Dems and Greens have other priorities that conflict with maintaining buses in Central London. Remember it was Caroline Pidgeon who wrote to the Mayor telling him to cut buses in Central London so she's got no basis to change her tune. The Greens want everything paved over or with cycle lanes and all buses to have a man with a red flag in front of them so they're conflicted despite allegedly supporting better public transport. Labour AMs won't rock the boat in the year before an election - that's simple politics.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2019 23:46:11 GMT
Pah. It's all very well for them to trot out the old 'Outer London' line but unless it's backed by something tangible, no-one will swallow it. OK, so we have the 404/434 change but that hardly seems like a fair return on the cuts, and the trimming elsewhere in Croydon probably covers most of that resource anyway. Perfectly reasonable comment but who's doing the swallowing? If it's the public then we know TfL just ignore them anyway. I doubt many other people including politicians are that bothered to be frank. I've set out in another post the issues with Assembly Members. MPs are in logjam over the "B word" and some local councillors might get bolshy as they face no elections this year but party loyalties will still kick in esp for Labour councils. We already know that the cuts in "Inner" London vastly outweigh any increase in "Outer" London so there's a net overall loss in kilometrage. There may even have to be cuts in Outer London to create headroom for other improvements. I can readily see Saturday and evening services in Outer London being lined up for cuts given those days / times are when patronage falls are heaviest.
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Post by dennistas on Jan 24, 2019 0:01:46 GMT
Thanks for posting. Will the bus cuts not go ahead now? Err that's not the interpretation I would put on that Board minute. As I've said before I think they will all proceed as planned because TfL desperately need to save the money. There would have to have been some very strong political arm bending going on in the shadows to force City Hall to tell TfL to row back on what was planned. I just can't see that happening. I think this lot of changes *has* to go through for a load of reasons within TfL. TfL will happily ignore all the criticism from the public because they have to. Even if 100% of respondents opposed a change I can still see it going ahead. The fact that 15m kms worth of cuts due 2019/20 simply vanished in the updated Business Plan shows that City Hall have already been scared but not enough to cancel this tranche of changes. I think that is to avoid bad news and virulent campaigns in the run up to the 2020 election. Unfortunately no one in the London Assembly is paying enough attention to buses to make the issue a real headache for the Mayor. The Tories simply won't be believed if they suddenly try to turn themselves into the saviour of the bus network and the Lib Dems and Greens have other priorities that conflict with maintaining buses in Central London. Remember it was Caroline Pidgeon who wrote to the Mayor telling him to cut buses in Central London so she's got no basis to change her tune. The Greens want everything paved over or with cycle lanes and all buses to have a man with a red flag in front of them so they're conflicted despite allegedly supporting better public transport. Labour AMs won't rock the boat in the year before an election - that's simple politics. I agree. Just wonder if the cuts happen sooner than later? I thought 2nd March would be the date but we shall see.
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Post by danorak on Jan 24, 2019 0:03:25 GMT
Pah. It's all very well for them to trot out the old 'Outer London' line but unless it's backed by something tangible, no-one will swallow it. OK, so we have the 404/434 change but that hardly seems like a fair return on the cuts, and the trimming elsewhere in Croydon probably covers most of that resource anyway. The 232 increases from 15 to 12 minutely at the new contract in August, there will be more on the way. Probably in upcoming new contracts. A drop in the ocean compared to what's being taken out elsewhere. A look at any of the service change updates over the last year will show any number of other routes, including in outer London, going from x10 down to x12 for example.
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Post by danorak on Jan 24, 2019 0:26:04 GMT
While I think of it, something I've found a little odd is the lack of a detailed consultation response from London Travelwatch. Yes, they did issue a hand-wringing press release but I would have expected to see something more substantial from them. They certainly did so for the earlier Oxford Street consultation but I can't see anything on their site or in their board papers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 4:27:00 GMT
Pah. It's all very well for them to trot out the old 'Outer London' line but unless it's backed by something tangible, no-one will swallow it. OK, so we have the 404/434 change but that hardly seems like a fair return on the cuts, and the trimming elsewhere in Croydon probably covers most of that resource anyway. Perfectly reasonable comment but who's doing the swallowing? If it's the public then we know TfL just ignore them anyway. I doubt many other people including politicians are that bothered to be frank. I've set out in another post the issues with Assembly Members. MPs are in logjam over the "B word" and some local councillors might get bolshy as they face no elections this year but party loyalties will still kick in esp for Labour councils. We already know that the cuts in "Inner" London vastly outweigh any increase in "Outer" London so there's a net overall loss in kilometrage. There may even have to be cuts in Outer London to create headroom for other improvements. I can readily see Saturday and evening services in Outer London being lined up for cuts given those days / times are when patronage falls are heaviest. Saturdays ? Surprised at that.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 24, 2019 12:03:31 GMT
Saturdays ? Surprised at that. Well Saturday and evenings have now been quoted by TfL in two periodic reports as the times when patronage has fallen. They say they are still investigating why. While I can understand why TfL like to be as certain as possible about statistical trends we've discussed the likely causes of patronage drops on here many times. If TfL reach the same conclusions then it won't surprise me if cuts are made to many bus services at these times. Although it's an unpopular view with some people on here I've long felt Saturdays have been over provided for and Sundays under provided on some routes / corridors. Making a re-adjustment would not necessarily be easy but if it meant a fall in waiting times and reduced overcrowding on Sundays a modest shift of resources might be popular. I certainly think TfL should at least ask people the question.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 24, 2019 12:24:31 GMT
Saturdays ? Surprised at that. Well Saturday and evenings have now been quoted by TfL in two periodic reports as the times when patronage has fallen. They say they are still investigating why. While I can understand why TfL like to be as certain as possible about statistical trends we've discussed the likely causes of patronage drops on here many times. If TfL reach the same conclusions then it won't surprise me if cuts are made to many bus services at these times. Although it's an unpopular view with some people on here I've long felt Saturdays have been over provided for and Sundays under provided on some routes / corridors. Making a re-adjustment would not necessarily be easy but if it meant a fall in waiting times and reduced overcrowding on Sundays a modest shift of resources might be popular. I certainly think TfL should at least ask people the question. Yes, I’d be very disappointed if they tinkered with Saturdays on a number of routes as those routes would begin to have issues. I get Sunday’s are busy as I’ve seen for myself but it should not be at the cost of Saturday’s.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 12:48:04 GMT
Saturdays ? Surprised at that. Well Saturday and evenings have now been quoted by TfL in two periodic reports as the times when patronage has fallen. They say they are still investigating why. While I can understand why TfL like to be as certain as possible about statistical trends we've discussed the likely causes of patronage drops on here many times. If TfL reach the same conclusions then it won't surprise me if cuts are made to many bus services at these times. Although it's an unpopular view with some people on here I've long felt Saturdays have been over provided for and Sundays under provided on some routes / corridors. Making a re-adjustment would not necessarily be easy but if it meant a fall in waiting times and reduced overcrowding on Sundays a modest shift of resources might be popular. I certainly think TfL should at least ask people the question. I wouldn't agree that Saturday's are over provided, but definitely agree with Sunday's being under.
I would say however that in most cases I would agree with the trimming out of evening and late night service. Generally on the buses I have used and seen, beyond 8-9pm, there is a lot of over providing. Yes I admit there would be more frustration at having to wait longer for a bus at that time of night, but it is far better to have a bus than to have the service cut, to save money.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 25, 2019 19:02:18 GMT
Well Saturday and evenings have now been quoted by TfL in two periodic reports as the times when patronage has fallen. They say they are still investigating why. While I can understand why TfL like to be as certain as possible about statistical trends we've discussed the likely causes of patronage drops on here many times. If TfL reach the same conclusions then it won't surprise me if cuts are made to many bus services at these times. Although it's an unpopular view with some people on here I've long felt Saturdays have been over provided for and Sundays under provided on some routes / corridors. Making a re-adjustment would not necessarily be easy but if it meant a fall in waiting times and reduced overcrowding on Sundays a modest shift of resources might be popular. I certainly think TfL should at least ask people the question. I wouldn't agree that Saturday's are over provided, but definitely agree with Sunday's being under.
I would say however that in most cases I would agree with the trimming out of evening and late night service. Generally on the buses I have used and seen, beyond 8-9pm, there is a lot of over providing. Yes I admit there would be more frustration at having to wait longer for a bus at that time of night, but it is far better to have a bus than to have the service cut, to save money.
I'd agree with that providing the right routes are chosen - for example, you couldn't thin out the 37's evening or night service because it plays a crucial role in the areas of Brixton, Clapham Common & Clapham Junction. Saturdays are more busier than people give credit for - most of my bus journeys around London over the last 10 years have been on Saturdays and many of these routes still remain busy on this day.
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