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Post by ctrh136 on Nov 22, 2018 15:53:20 GMT
Isn't this all similar to what they did last? year when they had the roadworks on Wellesley Road? I remember the 403 terminating at Croydon Town Centre for a while
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Post by sid on Nov 22, 2018 17:04:18 GMT
Isn't this all similar to what they did last? year when they had the roadworks on Wellesley Road? I remember the 403 terminating at Croydon Town Centre for a while Something similar when West Croydon bus station was rebuilt, with what I suggested the 403,405 and 412 would set down outside the former Nestlé tower and pick up for the return journey in Wellesley Road outside the home office.
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on Nov 22, 2018 17:47:48 GMT
Having taken some time to digest the information in this consultation, there some pretty bad changes and some changes that I can understand. I just want to say thank god they leaving my 109 alone for the most part!
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frank
Conductor
Posts: 64
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Post by frank on Nov 22, 2018 20:35:32 GMT
Not exactly what we were expecting. Basically coming south you have to walk the rest of the way and coming from the north you have to walk the rest of the way. Sounds a bit like the budgey airline joke where the flight to New York is cheap because you land in Dublin. What happened to the 130/466 sensibly being altered to reduce costs. Now that the 412 will terminate in central croydon it may as well merge with the 312 as the one unique thing about the route was West Croydon. SouthLondbus..... “sounds a bit like the budget airline joke where the flight to New York is cheap because you land in Dublin” Spot on. The best summarisation I have seen of vast majority of TfL’s Network changes over the last few years. Exactly how I feel about the 25 landing in Holborn Circus and the 97 which is due to skip Walthamstow Central bus station.
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Post by 700101 on Nov 22, 2018 21:11:37 GMT
Surprised about the 75, a lot of college students use it to drop them to the door step of Croydon college, I used it regularly until the Horsham stopped at NXG. As mentioned the 468 needs to serve the bus station so it has a common stop with the 50. Thought they would of thrown 250N and 64N merger or at least let the 250N terminate at East Croydon for interchange with the overnight services
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 23, 2018 0:31:41 GMT
Those from Penge, Anerley and South Norwood who attend Croydon College and really don't have two feet to walk from West Croydon to Croydon College will be able to get the 197 to Croydon College instead of the 75.
The proposals aren't as extreme as feared by many, it's a sensible swap of bus stops for some, while Tramlink can take some of the slack of routes that are terminating at the edge of Croydon. Changing from the 197 at East Croydon for example for George Street is perfectly fine. Those passengers from Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge and Norwood Junction are likely to use the Overground or the 75 to West Croydon which takes them closer to the shops than the 197.
With Westfield works imminent, the demand for buses along Wellesley Road will diminish with the Whitgift closed.
I'll agree though the Fairfield Halls is a grotty place to wait for a bus, I've waited many a time over the years for a bus on a windy and rainy day.
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Post by Steve80 on Nov 23, 2018 1:20:08 GMT
Those from Penge, Anerley and South Norwood who attend Croydon College and really don't have two feet to walk from West Croydon to Croydon College will be able to get the 197 to Croydon College instead of the 75. The proposals aren't as extreme as feared by many, it's a sensible swap of bus stops for some, while Tramlink can take some of the slack of routes that are terminating at the edge of Croydon. Changing from the 197 at East Croydon for example for George Street is perfectly fine. Those passengers from Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge and Norwood Junction are likely to use the Overground or the 75 to West Croydon which takes them closer to the shops than the 197. With Westfield works imminent, the demand for buses along Wellesley Road will diminish with the Whitgift closed. I'll agree though the Fairfield Halls is a grotty place to wait for a bus, I've waited many a time over the years for a bus on a windy and rainy day. Looking at it now, I generally agree with your comments. Looking at the 197 as an example, it has the 312 as well as buses and trains from Norwood Junction and you can get the tram from East Croydon to the town centre. But at the same time, why change it? Will cutting two bus stops away from a route save that much money or reduce traffic congestion? My worry now is that if TfL go ahead with these changes then I hope they would still let the 197 serve the stops on Fairfield halls/park lane (like they currently do). I get the impression that they would instead send the 197 to the back of Fairfield halls when going towards East Croydon and Peckham (like the X26 currently does towards East and West Croydon)
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Post by vjaska on Nov 23, 2018 2:26:04 GMT
Those from Penge, Anerley and South Norwood who attend Croydon College and really don't have two feet to walk from West Croydon to Croydon College will be able to get the 197 to Croydon College instead of the 75. The proposals aren't as extreme as feared by many, it's a sensible swap of bus stops for some, while Tramlink can take some of the slack of routes that are terminating at the edge of Croydon. Changing from the 197 at East Croydon for example for George Street is perfectly fine. Those passengers from Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge and Norwood Junction are likely to use the Overground or the 75 to West Croydon which takes them closer to the shops than the 197. With Westfield works imminent, the demand for buses along Wellesley Road will diminish with the Whitgift closed. I'll agree though the Fairfield Halls is a grotty place to wait for a bus, I've waited many a time over the years for a bus on a windy and rainy day. Whilst those who use the 250 don't have that luxury not to mention the 197 regularly arrives at Norwood Junction full so I can't see much demand transferring - what will now happen is people will probably switch to the Tramlink swamping that instead or the students will end up being driven to getting cars or lifts via mates - more nails into the bus network's coffin. Meanwhile, the old dears coming in on the 403, 405 & 412 (and there a good number who these services) are left with long walks to the outside shopping area which will still be there during the works. The services still running to West Croydon will become even more busy than usual as well - poor 166 for example. Wellesley Road is not just served by Whitgift but by the many offices along there including the Home Office so workers particularly on the low paid end will still need to use that section. And then we have the already busy 109 which will suffer upon losing it's comrade the 250 - a busy route in it's own right even if not on the level of the 250. There is a very good reason why the 250 follows the 109 bar the detour through Thorn Heath & the Green Lane area and thats because demand from Croydon to Streatham & Brixton is high and has been for as long as I've been alive - sorry but these changes are an absolute joke and I fail to see any sense in practically any of them - Croydon had a 8% increase in patronage but these changes will certainly reverse that.
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Post by sid on Nov 23, 2018 7:54:35 GMT
Those from Penge, Anerley and South Norwood who attend Croydon College and really don't have two feet to walk from West Croydon to Croydon College will be able to get the 197 to Croydon College instead of the 75. The proposals aren't as extreme as feared by many, it's a sensible swap of bus stops for some, while Tramlink can take some of the slack of routes that are terminating at the edge of Croydon. Changing from the 197 at East Croydon for example for George Street is perfectly fine. Those passengers from Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge and Norwood Junction are likely to use the Overground or the 75 to West Croydon which takes them closer to the shops than the 197. With Westfield works imminent, the demand for buses along Wellesley Road will diminish with the Whitgift closed. I'll agree though the Fairfield Halls is a grotty place to wait for a bus, I've waited many a time over the years for a bus on a windy and rainy day. Looking at it now, I generally agree with your comments. Looking at the 197 as an example, it has the 312 as well as buses and trains from Norwood Junction and you can get the tram from East Croydon to the town centre. But at the same time, why change it? Will cutting two bus stops away from a route save that much money or reduce traffic congestion? My worry now is that if TfL go ahead with these changes then I hope they would still let the 197 serve the stops on Fairfield halls/park lane (like they currently do). I get the impression that they would instead send the 197 to the back of Fairfield halls when going towards East Croydon and Peckham (like the X26 currently does towards East and West Croydon) I'm pretty sure that the 197 will do exactly what it does now, the X26 from Heathrow has to go that way to serve East Croydon and double back on itself.
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Post by rj131 on Nov 23, 2018 7:57:36 GMT
Those from Penge, Anerley and South Norwood who attend Croydon College and really don't have two feet to walk from West Croydon to Croydon College will be able to get the 197 to Croydon College instead of the 75. The proposals aren't as extreme as feared by many, it's a sensible swap of bus stops for some, while Tramlink can take some of the slack of routes that are terminating at the edge of Croydon. Changing from the 197 at East Croydon for example for George Street is perfectly fine. Those passengers from Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge and Norwood Junction are likely to use the Overground or the 75 to West Croydon which takes them closer to the shops than the 197. With Westfield works imminent, the demand for buses along Wellesley Road will diminish with the Whitgift closed. I'll agree though the Fairfield Halls is a grotty place to wait for a bus, I've waited many a time over the years for a bus on a windy and rainy day. Whilst those who use the 250 don't have that luxury not to mention the 197 regularly arrives at Norwood Junction full so I can't see much demand transferring - what will now happen is people will probably switch to the Tramlink swamping that instead or the students will end up being driven to getting cars or lifts via mates - more nails into the bus network's coffin. Meanwhile, the old dears coming in on the 403, 405 & 412 (and there a good number who these services) are left with long walks to the outside shopping area which will still be there during the works. The services still running to West Croydon will become even more busy than usual as well - poor 166 for example. Wellesley Road is not just served by Whitgift but by the many offices along there including the Home Office so workers particularly on the low paid end will still need to use that section. And then we have the already busy 109 which will suffer upon losing it's comrade the 250 - a busy route in it's own right even if not on the level of the *250*. There is a very good reason why the 250 follows the 109 bar the detour through Thorn Heath & the Green Lane area and thats because demand from Croydon to Streatham & Brixton is high and has been for as long as I've been alive - sorry but these changes are an absolute joke and I fail to see any sense in practically any of them - Croydon had a 8% increase in patronage but these changes will certainly reverse that. 109?
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Post by YY13VKP on Nov 23, 2018 9:15:30 GMT
Well I thank TfL for finally bringing me back to this site because of their random and astonishing email about changes to the Croydon town centre. What is the need for such changes Must admit that I hardly use the buses anymore but I assume nothing has changed that much as when I did used them as frequently as I did last year or so. I already filled out the online survey and made my concerns regarding the routes 109, 154, 250 and the 264 at nights. I would also question the 50 and 197. Obviously these routes I use more than the others and although I have driven the 433 in the past, I can understand that as the route parallels with the 64. I look at the stops on park street and I find it incredible that they want to curtail 3 routes form that stop. Imagine getting to a stop full of shopping bags and now you are forced to cram on another bus that's already rammed packed just to two stops down the road. And what's good is a one hour hopping service when you trying to get home from work on the 264 and now you have to walk to get the N68 or wait upto 20 minutes (or walk over 10 minutes) to get a connecting 119 bus at night. And If I want to go to Waddon or Stafford road areas, I will no longer have the option of choosing if I want to use the 157 or the 154. What happens if the trams are disrupted from running in the Croydon area? Why is the 367 not on this list? Is it any wonder why most of us prefer to take the car or use online shopping if they going to make buses harder to use than before Good to see you back again!
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 24, 2018 12:24:36 GMT
Given the cost of the planning, consultation, and then implementation I am trying to work out the potential cost savings?
Doubt given the circuitous terminal arrangement for the buses being curtailed to Central Croydon 154,403,405,412 there will be much room for saving here .... probably a maximum of 1 bus across all 4 routes if you are lucky. Same goes for 433.
Suppose the saving must be on routes 50,75,250,264 which will now terminate at West Croydon and no longer require to perform the long winded terminal arrangements .... do you think they could save 1 buses per route here ... 250 probably easily .... But rest debatable in my eyes.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 24, 2018 15:01:19 GMT
Given the cost of the planning, consultation, and then implementation I am trying to work out the potential cost savings? Doubt given the circuitous terminal arrangement for the buses being curtailed to Central Croydon 154,403,405,412 there will be much room for saving here .... probably a maximum of 1 bus across all 4 routes if you are lucky. Same goes for 433. Suppose the saving must be on routes 50,75,250,264 which will now terminate at West Croydon and no longer require to perform the long winded terminal arrangements .... do you think they could save 1 buses per route here ... 250 probably easily .... But rest debatable in my eyes. I don't think this consultation is about immediate cost savings. As you say they are likely to be small but to coin a phrase "every little helps". Less resource intensive schedules may also ease recruitment and retention pressures on operators. However I think this set of changes is an insurance policy against possible future PVR increases due to increased congestion in Croydon during Westfield construction. Therefore it is extra cost avoided. TfL are doing more of these changes these days - Chiswick High Road is another example to avoid increased PVRs during the cycle superhighway works. Some of the Central London changes take buses away from Aldwych and Waterloo which both have large highway schemes planned. As I have said before I think these Croydon changes give us a clue as to what may happen in other town centres. The removal of overlaps, even at the cost of worse interchange for some people, is deemed a price worth paying. I can see this splitting apart of terminals and breaking of bus / rail interchange happening in a lot of other places if TfL can find stand space. Bromley, Romford and Harrow all have high bus movements with long overlaps in order to serve shops etc. Harrow has a very congested bus station. I can see the same thing that is proposed for Croydon being done in other places in order to reduce the ridiculously termed "Bus on Bus" congestion, trim PVRs and to force people to walk. These schemes have that as an ulterior motive. I feel sorry for people who live to the east or south of Croydon, whose buses will in future terminate in the south end of the town centre, if they actually need to catch trains or the Overground at West Croydon. TfL's plans also ignore people like me who value the easy-ish bus - rail interchange at West Croydon as I use the Overground as my link to the north.
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Post by southlondonbus on Dec 11, 2018 13:31:40 GMT
I wonder if we will get the 404/434 consultation. As these seem to involve increasing the services then they will be forgotten about now?
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Post by ibus246 on Dec 11, 2018 16:52:22 GMT
I wonder if we will get the 404/434 consultation. As these seem to involve increasing the services then they will be forgotten about now? They can both be extended at very minimal cost - if any. The 434 has over 20 minutes stand time at Whyteleafe currently so you just redistribute the time to cater for the extension. The extension isn’t miles and miles; it’s just down the road. It is not an extension that will require an extra bus on the pvr
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