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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 22, 2021 20:27:10 GMT
I wonder what will happen contractually? Could the 271 contract transfer to the 16 and the 16 contract not renewed (obviously LT's still operating on amended contract)? Id say more like the 186. It hasn't been announced yet and there are plenty of existing buses for Metroline to carry it on
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Post by snowman on Nov 22, 2021 20:40:01 GMT
I wonder what will happen contractually? Could the 271 contract transfer to the 16 and the 16 contract not renewed (obviously LT's still operating on amended contract)? As a general rule, any contract expiring doesn’t need any compensation, or a variation. Therefore much easier not to renew and let the route being discontinued take over remainder of another contract. If a variation causes change of costs or profits for an ongoing contract, there is usually a mechanism to compensate the Operator so they are basically about net zero financially. Obviously the detail (size of PVR, mileage etc) means it might not be exact transfer, and bus type might change, but there will be a negotiated agreement to cover this.
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Post by uakari on Nov 22, 2021 21:17:24 GMT
I think the logic behind the N271 to North Finchley is because there is quite a long section along East Finchley High Road north of the East End Road junction, which has quite a few estates but is quite far to walk from the N20. However, that section has never had a night bus so it does seem odd to introduce one now (rather than keeping the current 271 terminus at Highgate Village) when they are supposedly trying to save money/cut services, and there are areas with no night bus that are a lot further to walk to one (New Barnet and Mill Hill East, for example). Perhaps they think there will be night passengers from Finchley Memorial Hospital too. But they are really missing a trick not then extending the N271 either to Mill Hill East via the 221, or to New Barnet via the 221 and 184.
Diverting the 263 via Highgate Village will obviously increase journey times on a route that has quite a few through journeys between either end, but I'm not entirely opposed as it will create new links (eg High Barnet to Highgate Village) while the Northern Line remains the speedier option covering much of the previous routing between High Barnet and Archway. It does leave the 143 effectively shadowing the tube between Finchley Central and Archway though.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 22, 2021 21:30:27 GMT
I think the logic behind the N271 to North Finchley is because there is quite a long section along East Finchley High Road north of the East End Road junction, which has quite a few estates but is quite far to walk from the N20. However, that section has never had a night bus so it does seem odd to introduce one now (rather than keeping the current 271 terminus at Highgate Village) when they are supposedly trying to save money/cut services, and there are areas with no night bus that are a lot further to walk to one (New Barnet and Mill Hill East, for example). Perhaps they think there will be night passengers from Finchley Memorial Hospital too. But they are really missing a trick not then extending the N271 either to Mill Hill East via the 221, or to New Barnet via the 221 and 184. Diverting the 263 via Highgate Village will obviously increase journey times on a route that has quite a few through journeys between either end, but I'm not entirely opposed as it will create new links (eg High Barnet to Highgate Village) while the Northern Line remains the speedier option covering much of the previous routing between High Barnet and Archway. It does leave the 143 effectively shadowing the tube between Finchley Central and Archway though. I don't know how many people would travel between Highgate Village & Barnet however if the demand was there I'd be open to that however I do think the 143 should still retain it's current route between Highgate Wood & Archway and to an extent I do say the same with the 263 because of how long the route is. If I'm honest if there were to be a change to the 263 it would be a diversion to Dalston, it's honestly really hard to believe how close Holloway & Dalston are yet do not have a service linking them.
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Post by evergreenadam on Nov 22, 2021 21:53:16 GMT
I think the logic behind the N271 to North Finchley is because there is quite a long section along East Finchley High Road north of the East End Road junction, which has quite a few estates but is quite far to walk from the N20. However, that section has never had a night bus so it does seem odd to introduce one now (rather than keeping the current 271 terminus at Highgate Village) when they are supposedly trying to save money/cut services, and there are areas with no night bus that are a lot further to walk to one (New Barnet and Mill Hill East, for example). Perhaps they think there will be night passengers from Finchley Memorial Hospital too. But they are really missing a trick not then extending the N271 either to Mill Hill East via the 221, or to New Barnet via the 221 and 184. Diverting the 263 via Highgate Village will obviously increase journey times on a route that has quite a few through journeys between either end, but I'm not entirely opposed as it will create new links (eg High Barnet to Highgate Village) while the Northern Line remains the speedier option covering much of the previous routing between High Barnet and Archway. It does leave the 143 effectively shadowing the tube between Finchley Central and Archway though. I don't know how many people would travel between Highgate Village & Barnet however if the demand was there I'd be open to that however I do think the 143 should still retain it's current route between Highgate Wood & Archway and to an extent I do say the same with the 263 because of how long the route is. If I'm honest if there were to be a change to the 263 it would be a diversion to Dalston, it's honestly really hard to believe how close Holloway & Dalston are yet do not have a service linking them. The proposals are relatively sensible and glad the overbussing between Newington Green and Moorgate is being addressed. The main missed opportunities are not double decking the 143 (will it now have heavier loads on the new Archway Road section?) and leaving the useless stump of the 263 to Highbury Barn when it could now run to Newington Green using the vacated stand for route 21 or in an ideal world, further on to Dalston.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 22, 2021 22:09:34 GMT
I don't know how many people would travel between Highgate Village & Barnet however if the demand was there I'd be open to that however I do think the 143 should still retain it's current route between Highgate Wood & Archway and to an extent I do say the same with the 263 because of how long the route is. If I'm honest if there were to be a change to the 263 it would be a diversion to Dalston, it's honestly really hard to believe how close Holloway & Dalston are yet do not have a service linking them. The proposals are relatively sensible and glad the overbussing between Newington Green and London Bridge is being addressed. The main missed opportunities are not double decking the 143 (will it now have heavier loads on the new Archway Road section?) and leaving the useless stump of the 263 to Highbury Barn when it could now run to Newington Green using the vacated stand for route 21 or in an ideal world, further on to Dalston. I agree with you on your first point, but your second I'm half half.
I can see potential in terms of speeding up the 143 between Highgate Wood & Archway but the question is is it needed. The 263 being diverted via Highgate Village I understand people's reasons but to me I see it not working. When I use the 263 a lot I normally see passengers board between Archway/Highgate and travel across East Finchley up along the busy North Finchley feeder corridor. The 263 is perfect for running along the A1 because since it's multiple extensions in the past 12 years, it's meant more people are using it for journeys that were once previously not made by public transport. I would say the Nags Head extension to the 263 wasn't particularly needed, but my god did the Highbury extension breathe new life into the route. It functions so well as a direct Outer to Inner London bus route and is an example as to if you invest people will come. I think diverting the 263 via Highgate Village would scupper it.
I can see merit in diverting a double deck route to handle heavy East Finchley to Archway loads on the 143 because after all it gets absolutely packed because of the numerous schools along there, however what I think has been failed to bare in mind is the number of people using the 143 between Archway & East Finchley Station continuing their journey onwards onto East End Road. And also, if say passengers had done what TFL were predicting them to do, which is hopper off a 263 onto a 143, then what you'll end up having is a higher number of people boarding at East Finchley, so therefore you have less chance of getting a seat. The Highgate Village to East End Road link has existed for 50 years, don't try to fix what ain't broke!! I understand the circumstances TFL are in with potentially withdrawing the 271, but if I'm honest there would've been no issue in dropping the 271 to 5bph & perhaps cutting the 21 back to Old Street and retaining it on it's old frequency.
I'm not convinced Archway Road passengers would want Finchley Central like TFL are predicting because as I've said, there is the option of the tube and from my passenger observations they seem to more interested in the direct link to the Lido & North Finchley. And I'm not convinced loads will skyrocket either but I imagine the number of people using the 143 from Archway Station will stay the same. You're completely right in decking the 143, with a few resident complaints to get past this would make the route far more bareable to use and you could potentially cut down on SDO/643 journeys that the route seems to have a lot of.
I don't quite agree with sending the 263 to Newington Green but not the worst of ideas, certainly it has some good shops around the Green and also interchange onto other bus services going towards Stoke Newington would be improved, but it would mirror the 393. I don't think there'd be an issue slotting the 263 into Dalston, if a bus only right turn was introduced onto Kingsland Road the route would be all set.
Before cutting well established sections of routes, it would be nice looking into pointless sections of residential routes that don't exactly pick up a lot. I've not seen any passengers using the 382 for example between Mill Hill East & Millbrook Park and also very scarce numbers using it between Finchley Central and MHE.
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Post by uakari on Nov 22, 2021 22:32:26 GMT
The proposals are relatively sensible and glad the overbussing between Newington Green and London Bridge is being addressed. The main missed opportunities are not double decking the 143 (will it now have heavier loads on the new Archway Road section?) and leaving the useless stump of the 263 to Highbury Barn when it could now run to Newington Green using the vacated stand for route 21 or in an ideal world, further on to Dalston. I agree with you on your first point, but your second I'm half half.
I can see potential in terms of speeding up the 143 between Highgate Wood & Archway but the question is is it needed. The 263 being diverted via Highgate Village I understand people's reasons but to me I see it not working. When I use the 263 a lot I normally see passengers board between Archway/Highgate and travel across East Finchley up along the busy North Finchley feeder corridor. The 263 is perfect for running along the A1 because since it's multiple extensions in the past 12 years, it's meant more people are using it for journeys that were once previously not made by public transport. I would say the Nags Head extension to the 263 wasn't particularly needed, but my god did the Highbury extension breathe new life into the route. It functions so well as a direct Outer to Inner London bus route and is an example as to if you invest people will come. I think diverting the 263 via Highgate Village would scupper it.
I can see merit in diverting a double deck route to handle heavy East Finchley to Archway loads on the 143 because after all it gets absolutely packed because of the numerous schools along there, however what I think has been failed to bare in mind is the number of people using the 143 between Archway & East Finchley Station continuing their journey onwards onto East End Road. And also, if say passengers had done what TFL were predicting them to do, which is hopper off a 263 onto a 143, then what you'll end up having is a higher number of people boarding at East Finchley, so therefore you have less chance of getting a seat. The Highgate Village to East End Road link has existed for 50 years, don't try to fix what ain't broke!! I understand the circumstances TFL are in with potentially withdrawing the 271, but if I'm honest there would've been no issue in dropping the 271 to 5bph & perhaps cutting the 21 back to Old Street and retaining it on it's old frequency.
I'm not convinced Archway Road passengers would want Finchley Central like TFL are predicting because as I've said, there is the option of the tube and from my passenger observations they seem to more interested in the direct link to the Lido & North Finchley. And I'm not convinced loads will skyrocket either but I imagine the number of people using the 143 from Archway Station will stay the same. You're completely right in decking the 143, with a few resident complaints to get past this would make the route far more bareable to use and you could potentially cut down on SDO/643 journeys that the route seems to have a lot of.
I don't quite agree with sending the 263 to Newington Green but not the worst of ideas, certainly it has some good shops around the Green and also interchange onto other bus services going towards Stoke Newington would be improved, but it would mirror the 393. I don't think there'd be an issue slotting the 263 into Dalston, if a bus only right turn was introduced onto Kingsland Road the route would be all set.
Before cutting well established sections of routes, it would be nice looking into pointless sections of residential routes that don't exactly pick up a lot. I've not seen any passengers using the 382 for example between Mill Hill East & Millbrook Park and also very scarce numbers using it between Finchley Central and MHE.
I do see your point about the 263; it would be interesting to know how many minutes the diversion via Highgate Village would add to the current journey. I don't agree about cutting residential sections as being preferable though, especially when there aren't alternatives, such as happened with the 384. Yes the 382 has the tube as an alternative but the 382 fills in the gaps and Millbrook Park is also not finished. I think cutting frequencies and reducing duplicated sections of routes is far less damaging than leaving whole roads/areas without a service.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 22, 2021 22:43:45 GMT
I agree with you on your first point, but your second I'm half half.
I can see potential in terms of speeding up the 143 between Highgate Wood & Archway but the question is is it needed. The 263 being diverted via Highgate Village I understand people's reasons but to me I see it not working. When I use the 263 a lot I normally see passengers board between Archway/Highgate and travel across East Finchley up along the busy North Finchley feeder corridor. The 263 is perfect for running along the A1 because since it's multiple extensions in the past 12 years, it's meant more people are using it for journeys that were once previously not made by public transport. I would say the Nags Head extension to the 263 wasn't particularly needed, but my god did the Highbury extension breathe new life into the route. It functions so well as a direct Outer to Inner London bus route and is an example as to if you invest people will come. I think diverting the 263 via Highgate Village would scupper it.
I can see merit in diverting a double deck route to handle heavy East Finchley to Archway loads on the 143 because after all it gets absolutely packed because of the numerous schools along there, however what I think has been failed to bare in mind is the number of people using the 143 between Archway & East Finchley Station continuing their journey onwards onto East End Road. And also, if say passengers had done what TFL were predicting them to do, which is hopper off a 263 onto a 143, then what you'll end up having is a higher number of people boarding at East Finchley, so therefore you have less chance of getting a seat. The Highgate Village to East End Road link has existed for 50 years, don't try to fix what ain't broke!! I understand the circumstances TFL are in with potentially withdrawing the 271, but if I'm honest there would've been no issue in dropping the 271 to 5bph & perhaps cutting the 21 back to Old Street and retaining it on it's old frequency.
I'm not convinced Archway Road passengers would want Finchley Central like TFL are predicting because as I've said, there is the option of the tube and from my passenger observations they seem to more interested in the direct link to the Lido & North Finchley. And I'm not convinced loads will skyrocket either but I imagine the number of people using the 143 from Archway Station will stay the same. You're completely right in decking the 143, with a few resident complaints to get past this would make the route far more bareable to use and you could potentially cut down on SDO/643 journeys that the route seems to have a lot of.
I don't quite agree with sending the 263 to Newington Green but not the worst of ideas, certainly it has some good shops around the Green and also interchange onto other bus services going towards Stoke Newington would be improved, but it would mirror the 393. I don't think there'd be an issue slotting the 263 into Dalston, if a bus only right turn was introduced onto Kingsland Road the route would be all set.
Before cutting well established sections of routes, it would be nice looking into pointless sections of residential routes that don't exactly pick up a lot. I've not seen any passengers using the 382 for example between Mill Hill East & Millbrook Park and also very scarce numbers using it between Finchley Central and MHE.
I do see your point about the 263; it would be interesting to know how many minutes the diversion via Highgate Village would add to the current journey. I don't agree about cutting residential sections as being preferable though, especially when there aren't alternatives, such as happened with the 384. Yes the 382 has the tube as an alternative but the 382 fills in the gaps and Millbrook Park is also not finished. I think cutting frequencies and reducing duplicated sections of routes is far less damaging than leaving whole roads/areas without a service. I'd agree with you on the 384 because some parts of the route especially the Arkley end have quite densely populated housing. I don't think the 382 should've been extended to Millbrook Park anyway, I think it should be cutback to Mill Hill East to be efficient with resources and when it opens up extend it into it.
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Post by busman on Nov 22, 2021 23:18:29 GMT
Glad to see the 21 considered for a small extension (mileage-wise) and given more purpose at its northern end…especially after the constant calls on this forum for it to be chopped back to Moorgate. This route now becomes a really useful North-South route with links between South East London and Holloway Road. A lot of students and Gooners will find that new link incredibly useful. Really smart swapping of the 143 and 263 routes to make this happen. The real kicker will be the frequencies. Will the 21 get a slight peak time frequency decrease to align with the 271 frequency?
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Post by ADH45258 on Nov 23, 2021 0:01:30 GMT
There are some good ideas with these proposals, but the revised 21 could be quite unreliable, and I think generally some changes could improve the proposals overall. Also, with TFL having to make cuts, I'm not sure the N271 is worth introducing, particularly beyond Highgate. Does the section along New North Road need to keep a night service either, especially as it only goes as far as Finsbury Square towards Central London, and the 43 & 76 available for some journeys?
143 - Retain via Highgate Village, but convert to DDs, and extend to Highbury Barn. 143D and 643 withdrawn or merged into the schedule, following the extra capacity available. 263 - Cut back to operate between Archway and Barnet Hospital (via Highgate Station). 271 - Withdrawn as planned.
21 - Rerouted to Holloway as planned, but cut back at the other end to either New Cross Gate or Deptford Bridge. 453 - Rerouted to Lewisham to replace the 21. Also provides a direct link from Lewisham to the West End. N453 - Night service extended to Bexleyheath, replacing the N21. Option for the revised 21 to operate 24 hours if needed.
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Post by CircleLineofLife on Nov 23, 2021 1:23:04 GMT
If they had to withdraw the 271:
I would have the 263 operate between North Finchley and Moorgate via the old 271, then continue up to N finchley via 143 and standard 263. Have the 21 serve Highbury Barn, instead of Holloway nags Head. And extend the 460 to cover the lost link by the 263. Yes I know it duplicates the 125 more, but personally I would have liked it if they extended the 125 eastwards to Edmonton or somewhere further in Enfield instead of extending it to Colindale.
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Post by Busboy105 on Nov 23, 2021 7:18:35 GMT
There are some good ideas with these proposals, but the revised 21 could be quite unreliable, and I think generally some changes could improve the proposals overall. Also, with TFL having to make cuts, I'm not sure the N271 is worth introducing, particularly beyond Highgate. Does the section along New North Road need to keep a night service either, especially as it only goes as far as Finsbury Square towards Central London, and the 43 & 76 available for some journeys? 143 - Retain via Highgate Village, but convert to DDs, and extend to Highbury Barn. 143D and 643 withdrawn or merged into the schedule, following the extra capacity available. 263 - Cut back to operate between Archway and Barnet Hospital (via Highgate Station). 271 - Withdrawn as planned. 21 - Rerouted to Holloway as planned, but cut back at the other end to either New Cross Gate or Deptford Bridge. 453 - Rerouted to Lewisham to replace the 21. Also provides a direct link from Lewisham to the West End. N453 - Night service extended to Bexleyheath, replacing the N21. Option for the revised 21 to operate 24 hours if needed. Cutting the 271 to Archway is a bit much. What you can do is change the Eastern terminus to Newington Green/Dalston Junction
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 23, 2021 7:19:43 GMT
If they had to withdraw the 271: I would have the 263 operate between North Finchley and Moorgate via the old 271, then continue up to N finchley via 143 and standard 263. Have the 21 serve Highbury Barn, instead of Holloway nags Head. And extend the 460 to cover the lost link by the 263. Yes I know it duplicates the 125 more, but personally I would have liked it if they extended the 125 eastwards to Edmonton or somewhere further in Enfield instead of extending it to Colindale. By that point you might as well keep the 271.
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Post by greenboy on Nov 23, 2021 7:23:28 GMT
The 21 change does seem interesting, but I don’t get making an N271 to North Finchley when you have 134 and N20 from Archway The N271 does seem a bit odd and could cause problems if the 271 number is reused at some future date especially if it includes a night service. Wouldn't the number N263 be more appropriate?
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Post by aaron1 on Nov 23, 2021 7:44:41 GMT
The 21 change does seem interesting, but I don’t get making an N271 to North Finchley when you have 134 and N20 from Archway The N271 does seem a bit odd and could cause problems if the 271 number is reused at some future date especially if it includes a night service. Wouldn't the number N263 be more appropriate? For a long time that I want to renumber N20 as N263 that would be better and easier for others
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