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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 10, 2022 23:49:05 GMT
Tbh I would have thought a night link from Dagenham to Romford would have been more popular for clubbers on Friday/Saturday nights as opposed to Ilford/Leytonstone. It's interesting you say this as a friend of mine who lives along the 174 route and now works for Go-Ahead, has long said a night route via the 174 would be pretty popular - unlike many Outer London areas, Romford does have a night scene from what I've heard I see the 174 in the evening regularly and it is not that busy. Friday & Saturday nights may take a few more people from Romford town centre, but nothing spectacular. Many of the people tend to use Uber or other cabs a lot. Even N128's do not leave Romford heaving. I have used it and has not even had double figures and that is on a Friday/Saturday night going out of Romford. The N145 was mainly for the use of the people coming off the trains. The 174 would not link any night tube at all, so would definitely not happen, unless we get a night tube version of the Elizabeth line or District line
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Post by vjaska on Feb 10, 2022 23:51:50 GMT
Probably a reason why fares need looking at and potentially children paying. To me I do not understand the reason why they can't, more revenue would come into the network & more investment would go out. As someone who is pro investment into the network, getting children to pay outside of school hours and perhaps looking at hours for pensioners to pay is a good idea. I wonder if maybe night routes should charge a small extra premium fare? But probably not practical with daily fare and weekly caps. You start charging premium fares for night routes and we may as well start withdrawing many of them now. Same goes for kids & pensioners - all what will happen is simply speed up the exodus from bus to other modes and we end up with more private vehicles causing jams.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 11, 2022 0:02:41 GMT
Why can't they divert the N86 to Hornchurch or Upminster? No night buses there and it could be useful for residents I've no clue. Every New Year's the 248 operates throughout the night, and usually it runs on a ~25 min frequency; which suggests demand may be more than in other suburban areas. All I know is if the 145N is removed, the residents of Dagenham have a stick to beat the Son of a Bus Driver with. Covid or not, it seems utterly foolish for TfL to remove a well used night link because it didn't hit their projected forecasts. It's not running at a loss, why touch the 145N? And just to say that the 365 does serve Abbs Cross, which is technically in the Hornchurch ward and therefore does have some sort of [meagre] night service. The N365 is not even that busy either
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 11, 2022 0:03:34 GMT
I've no clue. Every New Year's the 248 operates throughout the night, and usually it runs on a ~25 min frequency; which suggests demand may be more than in other suburban areas. All I know is if the 145N is removed, the residents of Dagenham have a stick to beat the Son of a Bus Driver with. Covid or not, it seems utterly foolish for TfL to remove a well used night link because it didn't hit their projected forecasts. It's not running at a loss, why touch the 145N? And just to say that the 365 does serve Abbs Cross, which is technically in the Hornchurch ward and therefore does have some sort of [meagre] night service. The son of a bus driver wants to make sure there are no more sons-of-bus-drivers by decimating buses forever Also read somewhere (unverified) that the dad drove buses for only a year rather than an extended career so sounds like a politician’s gimmick lmfao
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Post by enviroPB on Feb 11, 2022 16:32:03 GMT
It's interesting you say this as a friend of mine who lives along the 174 route and now works for Go-Ahead, has long said a night route via the 174 would be pretty popular - unlike many Outer London areas, Romford does have a night scene from what I've heard I see the 174 in the evening regularly and it is not that busy. Friday & Saturday nights may take a few more people from Romford town centre, but nothing spectacular. Many of the people tend to use Uber or other cabs a lot. Even N128's do not leave Romford heaving. I have used it and has not even had double figures and that is on a Friday/Saturday night going out of Romford. The N145 was mainly for the use of the people coming off the trains. The 174 would not link any night tube at all, so would definitely not happen, unless we get a night tube version of the Elizabeth line or District line Well those people have no choice if TfL want to proclaim that Dagenham is served at night in the form of the N15. To have a 6bph route all night is great but it won't serve everywhere. The 145N, to most Dagenham residents, was a night route to get them to connecting services (N15, N25, N86). As another post mentioned, Leytonstone to Redbridge is already covered by the N8. Very few boarded before The Drive where after people boarded mostly in Ilford town centre and Martins Corner towards Dagenham. The complete reverse towards Leytonstone happened in terms of alighting the 145N at those areas, but crucially the night bus had a good 20+ passengers coming from the Dagenham area before Longbridge Road. TfL's problem is trying to justify this Night Tube route when passenger flows suggests the Night Tube has little to play with demand, particularly on Sunday mornings. Before the 145N the day service on Sundays started around 8am. Tube services start late on Sundays as we know, and the journeys the 145N provided before that time was, pre Covid, standing room only due to the seating capacity reached in the Dagenham area westbound. I'm sure TfL are concerned that the Leytonstone end of the route was lightly used, but the Dagenham end is vitally needed. Coverage of the bus network at night is too tragically poor there, it would be a shame if the 145N were to be pulled with no night replacement.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Feb 11, 2022 17:08:25 GMT
I wonder if maybe night routes should charge a small extra premium fare? But probably not practical with daily fare and weekly caps. You start charging premium fares for night routes and we may as well start withdrawing many of them now. Same goes for kids & pensioners - all what will happen is simply speed up the exodus from bus to other modes and we end up with more private vehicles causing jams. With no disrespect intended that does always seem to be your response to suggestions like this which is a valid point but TFL need to make money somehow & ultimately more money would be made by charging children & pensioners during certain hours which would then allow TFL more money to play with in order to pay off the debt rather than ferociously cutting at bus services. You’ll 100% lose more passengers by reducing frequencies, look at the 384 when it was dropped to x20. It was very clearly a tactical suggestion to then say well demands dropped so let’s start cutting these sections.
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Post by WH241 on Feb 11, 2022 17:40:08 GMT
You start charging premium fares for night routes and we may as well start withdrawing many of them now. Same goes for kids & pensioners - all what will happen is simply speed up the exodus from bus to other modes and we end up with more private vehicles causing jams. With no disrespect intended that does always seem to be your response to suggestions like this which is a valid point but TFL need to make money somehow & ultimately more money would be made by charging children & pensioners during certain hours which would then allow TFL more money to play with in order to pay off the debt rather than ferociously cutting at bus services. You’ll 100% lose more passengers by reducing frequencies, look at the 384 when it was dropped to x20. It was very clearly a tactical suggestion to then say well demands dropped so let’s start cutting these sections. This is what I do get when there is opposition to raising fare even modestly! Yes fares should be kept as low as possible but income needs to be generated! £1.55 is a steal and in reality should have increased years ago. I was only suggesting charging a slight premium on N routes this would still make the bus much cheaper than a Uber.
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Post by WH241 on Feb 11, 2022 17:44:02 GMT
I see the 174 in the evening regularly and it is not that busy. Friday & Saturday nights may take a few more people from Romford town centre, but nothing spectacular. Many of the people tend to use Uber or other cabs a lot. Even N128's do not leave Romford heaving. I have used it and has not even had double figures and that is on a Friday/Saturday night going out of Romford. The N145 was mainly for the use of the people coming off the trains. The 174 would not link any night tube at all, so would definitely not happen, unless we get a night tube version of the Elizabeth line or District line Well those people have no choice if TfL want to proclaim that Dagenham is served at night in the form of the N15. To have a 6bph route all night is great but it won't serve everywhere. The 145N, to most Dagenham residents, was a night route to get them to connecting services (N15, N25, N86). As another post mentioned, Leytonstone to Redbridge is already covered by the N8. Very few boarded before The Drive where after people boarded mostly in Ilford town centre and Martins Corner towards Dagenham. The complete reverse towards Leytonstone happened in terms of alighting the 145N at those areas, but crucially the night bus had a good 20+ passengers coming from the Dagenham area before Longbridge Road. TfL's problem is trying to justify this Night Tube route when passenger flows suggests the Night Tube has little to play with demand, particularly on Sunday mornings. Before the 145N the day service on Sundays started around 8am. Tube services start late on Sundays as we know, and the journeys the 145N provided before that time was, pre Covid, standing room only due to the seating capacity reached in the Dagenham area westbound. I'm sure TfL are concerned that the Leytonstone end of the route was lightly used, but the Dagenham end is vitally needed. Coverage of the bus network at night is too tragically poor there, it would be a shame if the 145N were to be pulled with no night replacement. I am a bit confused about the demand on the N145 maybe I read the report wrong but it suggested a average of 200 passengers a night? but you have seen standing loads? If the N145 is needed so much why was it only weekends? genuine question as surely there would be demand from workers etc other nights if Dagenham needs a night service?
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 11, 2022 19:49:28 GMT
You start charging premium fares for night routes and we may as well start withdrawing many of them now. Same goes for kids & pensioners - all what will happen is simply speed up the exodus from bus to other modes and we end up with more private vehicles causing jams. With no disrespect intended that does always seem to be your response to suggestions like this which is a valid point but TFL need to make money somehow & ultimately more money would be made by charging children & pensioners during certain hours which would then allow TFL more money to play with in order to pay off the debt rather than ferociously cutting at bus services. You’ll 100% lose more passengers by reducing frequencies, look at the 384 when it was dropped to x20. It was very clearly a tactical suggestion to then say well demands dropped so let’s start cutting these sections. However we do need to look at how price elastic bus fares have become over the years. Previously when fares would rise year on year, people would budget for them and people would expect them. Increases were expected and wouldn't usually throw people off and many people had no choice but to put up with them. However after 4 years of no increase, there is noticeably going to be an uproar when fares rise and even if its just as much as it would have risen anyway people will see it as a bigger deal and will try to resist it. People are likely to start looking at switching even if they'd have not done so should it have been a year on year increase. However you do need to look at it other ways. You don't want to stop burning something with fire to just burn it with acid instead. You need to have a solution, it's pointless trying to save public transport by increasing fares but then having a noticeable decline in usage and an increase in traffic which makes public transport even more unbearable. I like using my Westfield example but it's a good one. Why would I spend £3.10 on the bus to Westfield when I need to do a quick shop when I can spend £3 on parking (and a couple of pence on petrol)? Increase the bus fare and you end up paying more for a far inferior experience. In the car I can literally zip down the A13, A406 and A12 and be in Stratford in 15 minutes when in a bus I'd need to walk to the 238 or 262 and then spend around 45 minutes sat on a bus with a load of people. So do you really think inflating fares even more is a good option? I'm not against a fare rise at all, like mentioned a simple 5p increase can certainly help reduce the debt. But you need to weigh it out at a time when you also need to work on attracting people back to public transport. It's hardly going to break anyone's bank, but it can very much be the deciding factor on whether someone uses a bus that day or uses their car. Buses are being stuck in congestion more and more and if I'm going to be stuck in congestion regardless I'd rather be stuck in congestion in my own vehicle where I have access to climate control and can play music out loud and control what's playing, not to mention the far more ergonomic seats. Coming home today I was on a 173 that was freezing like no tomorrow as the AC was on full blast, and I also had a 43 that took forever from Old Street to Bank because of the congestion. Going back to the topic of a night bus premium you need to look at the fact that chances are if you're going out to party on the weekend (who the weekend night routes are generally aimed at) then the target passengers tend to be slightly better off financially, or will at least have saved up for the night and are probably ready to hop into an Uber at a second's notice. I'd not even be surprised if that's why the 145N hasn't been living up to standards, if you live in Dagenham and have taken the train to Redbridge the last thing passengers will want to do is do tour de Dagenham at that hour when they can get an Uber for a cheaper cost than directly using it from Central London. Even I when it's late, and I still could potentially wait 15 minutes for one of the last 62s from Barking Station or was home in the cold I opt for an Uber which only costs a few pounds.
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Post by WH241 on Feb 11, 2022 20:07:12 GMT
With no disrespect intended that does always seem to be your response to suggestions like this which is a valid point but TFL need to make money somehow & ultimately more money would be made by charging children & pensioners during certain hours which would then allow TFL more money to play with in order to pay off the debt rather than ferociously cutting at bus services. You’ll 100% lose more passengers by reducing frequencies, look at the 384 when it was dropped to x20. It was very clearly a tactical suggestion to then say well demands dropped so let’s start cutting these sections. However we do need to look at how price elastic bus fares have become over the years. Previously when fares would rise year on year, people would budget for them and people would expect them. Increases were expected and wouldn't usually throw people off and many people had no choice but to put up with them. However after 4 years of no increase, there is noticeably going to be an uproar when fares rise and even if its just as much as it would have risen anyway people will see it as a bigger deal and will try to resist it. People are likely to start looking at switching even if they'd have not done so should it have been a year on year increase. However you do need to look at it other ways. You don't want to stop burning something with fire to just burn it with acid instead. You need to have a solution, it's pointless trying to save public transport by increasing fares but then having a noticeable decline in usage and an increase in traffic which makes public transport even more unbearable. I like using my Westfield example but it's a good one. Why would I spend £3.10 on the bus to Westfield when I need to do a quick shop when I can spend £3 on parking (and a couple of pence on petrol)? Increase the bus fare and you end up paying more for a far inferior experience. In the car I can literally zip down the A13, A406 and A12 and be in Stratford in 15 minutes when in a bus I'd need to walk to the 238 or 262 and then spend around 45 minutes sat on a bus with a load of people. So do you really think inflating fares even more is a good option? I'm not against a fare rise at all, like mentioned a simple 5p increase can certainly help reduce the debt. But you need to weigh it out at a time when you also need to work on attracting people back to public transport. It's hardly going to break anyone's bank, but it can very much be the deciding factor on whether someone uses a bus that day or uses their car. Buses are being stuck in congestion more and more and if I'm going to be stuck in congestion regardless I'd rather be stuck in congestion in my own vehicle where I have access to climate control and can play music out loud and control what's playing, not to mention the far more ergonomic seats. Coming home today I was on a 173 that was freezing like no tomorrow as the AC was on full blast, and I also had a 43 that took forever from Old Street to Bank because of the congestion. Going back to the topic of a night bus premium you need to look at the fact that chances are if you're going out to party on the weekend (who the weekend night routes are generally aimed at) then the target passengers tend to be slightly better off financially, or will at least have saved up for the night and are probably ready to hop into an Uber at a second's notice. I'd not even be surprised if that's why the 145N hasn't been living up to standards, if you live in Dagenham and have taken the train to Redbridge the last thing passengers will want to do is do tour de Dagenham at that hour when they can get an Uber for a cheaper cost than directly using it from Central London. Even I when it's late, and I still could potentially wait 15 minutes for one of the last 62s from Barking Station or was home in the cold I opt for an Uber which only costs a few pounds. I'm going way off topic here but would love a car that costs a few pence in petrol at today's prices
I do agree a 5p increase would make it a nice route £1.60 and could really help with the finances at TfL.
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Post by SILENCED on Feb 11, 2022 20:44:35 GMT
However we do need to look at how price elastic bus fares have become over the years. Previously when fares would rise year on year, people would budget for them and people would expect them. Increases were expected and wouldn't usually throw people off and many people had no choice but to put up with them. However after 4 years of no increase, there is noticeably going to be an uproar when fares rise and even if its just as much as it would have risen anyway people will see it as a bigger deal and will try to resist it. People are likely to start looking at switching even if they'd have not done so should it have been a year on year increase. However you do need to look at it other ways. You don't want to stop burning something with fire to just burn it with acid instead. You need to have a solution, it's pointless trying to save public transport by increasing fares but then having a noticeable decline in usage and an increase in traffic which makes public transport even more unbearable. I like using my Westfield example but it's a good one. Why would I spend £3.10 on the bus to Westfield when I need to do a quick shop when I can spend £3 on parking (and a couple of pence on petrol)? Increase the bus fare and you end up paying more for a far inferior experience. In the car I can literally zip down the A13, A406 and A12 and be in Stratford in 15 minutes when in a bus I'd need to walk to the 238 or 262 and then spend around 45 minutes sat on a bus with a load of people. So do you really think inflating fares even more is a good option? I'm not against a fare rise at all, like mentioned a simple 5p increase can certainly help reduce the debt. But you need to weigh it out at a time when you also need to work on attracting people back to public transport. It's hardly going to break anyone's bank, but it can very much be the deciding factor on whether someone uses a bus that day or uses their car. Buses are being stuck in congestion more and more and if I'm going to be stuck in congestion regardless I'd rather be stuck in congestion in my own vehicle where I have access to climate control and can play music out loud and control what's playing, not to mention the far more ergonomic seats. Coming home today I was on a 173 that was freezing like no tomorrow as the AC was on full blast, and I also had a 43 that took forever from Old Street to Bank because of the congestion. Going back to the topic of a night bus premium you need to look at the fact that chances are if you're going out to party on the weekend (who the weekend night routes are generally aimed at) then the target passengers tend to be slightly better off financially, or will at least have saved up for the night and are probably ready to hop into an Uber at a second's notice. I'd not even be surprised if that's why the 145N hasn't been living up to standards, if you live in Dagenham and have taken the train to Redbridge the last thing passengers will want to do is do tour de Dagenham at that hour when they can get an Uber for a cheaper cost than directly using it from Central London. Even I when it's late, and I still could potentially wait 15 minutes for one of the last 62s from Barking Station or was home in the cold I opt for an Uber which only costs a few pounds. I'm going way off topic here but would love a car that costs a few pence in petrol at today's prices
I do agree a 5p increase would make it a nice route £1.60 and could really help with the finances at TfL.
Yeah petrol is about £7 per gallon. In London cars to 20-30 miles to the gallon, so we are a pound in fuel every 3-4 miles
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Post by joefrombow on Feb 12, 2022 0:22:17 GMT
Why bother with the Consultation ? I don't remember one when the 8 was "suspended" due to roadworks from Oxford Circus to TCR ?
I say just get rid if (which they will regardless) they are going to , maybe have some earlier and later journeys on Saturday & Sunday Mornings
And as for the Night Tube as far as I know it doesn't run anyway at moment because of the ongoing dispute between RMT and TFL , personally I would say bin the Night Tube for now aswell just apply the same logic again have some later departures say hour or two later and earlier starting times like normal weekday times .
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 12, 2022 6:55:53 GMT
Why bother with the Consultation ? I don't remember one when the 8 was "suspended" due to roadworks from Oxford Circus to TCR ? I say just get rid if (which they will regardless) they are going to , maybe have some earlier and later journeys on Saturday & Sunday Mornings And as for the Night Tube as far as I know it doesn't run anyway at moment because of the ongoing dispute between RMT and TFL , personally I would say bin the Night Tube for now aswell just apply the same logic again have some later departures say hour or two later and earlier starting times like normal weekday times . There wasn't a consultation for the temp cutbacks but there was one when it was decided to make the 8 and 15 cutbacks to TCR and TSQ permanent.
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Post by enviroPB on Feb 12, 2022 11:49:34 GMT
Well those people have no choice if TfL want to proclaim that Dagenham is served at night in the form of the N15. To have a 6bph route all night is great but it won't serve everywhere. The 145N, to most Dagenham residents, was a night route to get them to connecting services (N15, N25, N86). As another post mentioned, Leytonstone to Redbridge is already covered by the N8. Very few boarded before The Drive where after people boarded mostly in Ilford town centre and Martins Corner towards Dagenham. The complete reverse towards Leytonstone happened in terms of alighting the 145N at those areas, but crucially the night bus had a good 20+ passengers coming from the Dagenham area before Longbridge Road. TfL's problem is trying to justify this Night Tube route when passenger flows suggests the Night Tube has little to play with demand, particularly on Sunday mornings. Before the 145N the day service on Sundays started around 8am. Tube services start late on Sundays as we know, and the journeys the 145N provided before that time was, pre Covid, standing room only due to the seating capacity reached in the Dagenham area westbound. I'm sure TfL are concerned that the Leytonstone end of the route was lightly used, but the Dagenham end is vitally needed. Coverage of the bus network at night is too tragically poor there, it would be a shame if the 145N were to be pulled with no night replacement. I am a bit confused about the demand on the N145 maybe I read the report wrong but it suggested a average of 200 passengers a night? but you have seen standing loads? If the N145 is needed so much why was it only weekends? genuine question as surely there would be demand from workers etc other nights if Dagenham needs a night service?
Looked at the document that accompanies the consultation (which I admittedly didn't do) and looked at the 145 timetable. For 220 passengers in a general night divided by the 18 journeys from the 145N, it works out about 12 passengers per trip. Under par for the breakeven 17 passengers per journey but not too far from it. Averages are a funny old thing. I talked about the 145N being very busy on Sunday mornings, however Friday night/Saturday morning journeys towards Leytonstone is where the numbers bring the average down. I'm not being crass, I'm being honest; Dagenham is one of the poorest parts of the country. If the N15 can achieve full seating capacity before it leaves the borough of Barking & Dagenham, on a 10 minute frequency no less, then there's definitely demand in the area for another night bus route.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 12, 2022 12:00:13 GMT
I am a bit confused about the demand on the N145 maybe I read the report wrong but it suggested a average of 200 passengers a night? but you have seen standing loads? If the N145 is needed so much why was it only weekends? genuine question as surely there would be demand from workers etc other nights if Dagenham needs a night service?
Looked at the document that accompanies the consultation (which I admittedly didn't do) and looked at the 145 timetable. For 220 passengers in a general night divided by the 18 journeys from the 145N, it works out about 12 passengers per trip. Under par for the breakeven 17 passengers per journey but not too far from it. Averages are a funny old thing. I talked about the 145N being very busy on Sunday mornings, however Friday night/Saturday morning journeys towards Leytonstone is where the numbers bring the average down. I'm not being crass, I'm being honest; Dagenham is one of the poorest parts of the country. If the N15 can achieve full seating capacity before it leaves the borough of Barking & Dagenham, on a 10 minute frequency no less, then there's definitely demand in the area for another night bus route. However the other question is where this demand is going. The N15 is a straight line into Central London, while the 145 goes around every nook and cranny of Dagenham before almost making it to Barking, diving down a load of side roads to Ilford before it's direct to Leytonstone. People in Dagenham that want a night link are unlikely to need to go to Leytonstone of all places. Not looking far down the road to Barking, you also have the 238N and EL1N running around in the area. The N15 is certainly more popular in Barking, but the 238 still carries crush loads (or at least did pre-pandemic) as that's a straight direct route to Stratford and doesn't tour around houses and goes to a major hub. The EL1N provides a link between two major town centres at night of which both have their share of shift workers. I'm sure an extension of the night 238 towards Dagenham would be greatly appreciated, but then all that'll happen is it parallels the N15 in, unless it goes down Upney Lane and follows the 287 to terminate at Rainham Tesco or the likes. Should there eventually be a night District line the dynamic will end up changing very quickly. The 145N all of a sudden could once again be very useful to commuters.
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