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Post by DT 11 on May 14, 2023 14:13:25 GMT
I have a good point here, some people complain about fast driving and dangerous driving from all the companies..... But have they stopped and thought about how they are obsessed with old low floor buses at running days and open days and forever demanding the drivers to give those buses a good thrashing etc? use kick down, do this, do that etc Asking drivers to thrash out those buses is just as dangerous as what they are moaning about it the 1st place! As for how TFL is run, blame Sadiq Khan and what he signs off and spends funds on. Do we need new buses? No we don't, we need cycle lane schemes which make roads smaller and causes more traffic, no we don't and other schemes he likes to throw money at to look good. What needs doing, is tube station upgrades, new trains, improved service, more affordable fares and cost of living in London. He is obsessed with ULEZ he is, stupid idea. Who ever voted for this clown. Both Khan and our PM Sunak need to be shown the door. As for TFL, they could not run a bath, yet alone a transport network. Long gone are the days where people stay in the job and work there way up, companies now take people straight from uni who have not the basic clue as to what is what. Enough said. Most buses are now being fitted with ISA now so the bus cannot exceed the local speed limit. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 14, 2023 15:15:06 GMT
So my honest opinion on this discussion is that whilst bus drivers aren't looked at favourably by many people it is still a VITAL role for people as companies need bus drivers to get the masses of the public around from A to B. There are many people who are drivers that do have degrees on their name but they initially may have wanted the bus driver job just to keep themselves afloat and ended up liking the role thus they stayed on. Like with anything in life you do need skills to learn the mechanical side of things should a bus vehicle malfunction whilst you're operating it. Of course a person that's a surgeon will need an extensive training on this as it is an intensive thing to do and so many factors are involved in it. Both a surgeon and a bus driver has their place in society and people need to understand this. A DEGREE DOES NOT GUARANTEE SUCCESS. GONE OF THE DAYS WHERE UNIVERSITY WAS SEEN AS THE HOLY GRAIL. Me personally if I had known what I know now I most definitely would have gone down the apprenticeship route. The part in the second paragraph was me. I was the first year in uni to be under tuition fees from New Labour; at the time I remember many students then saying not to vote for Blair because of what he proposed, I did not think they would do it, in the end they did to my disappointment. It cost me a lot of money £1000 where my brother who went years before did not have to pay. I remember a lot of students started and dropped out mid term when the uni kept demanding the fees from them, it was such a shame! After year 2, stupidly I wanted to get a part time job and could not get anything and went to look for a bus driving job. I had interviews on the same day for both Arriva & Stagecoach as I wanted to drive the Metrobus or the Titan (I was more fond of the Titan though). Arriva said to me that I could not go part time, then Stagecoach said the same thing. I was going out the door, then changed my mind and said I would do it for a few months and take a year out from uni, as I probably would never get to drive a Titan in service as they were on the way out. In the end I never went back to uni and got too comfortable with the job.  At least I got to drive the Titan in service, even if it was only for 4 months. A lot of people at uni from my classes never got jobs within the field they studied for. One lecturer did warn us of this and said if we are expecting to, then go out the door and leave the campus as you would be disappointed if you do not get a job in the field. |
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Post by VPL630 on May 14, 2023 18:39:03 GMT
I think one of the main problems now is that the job is incentivised as a quick way to make money and so many people just don’t care about the job they are doing or take pride in any of it, the way you are treated by the public, management and controllers can easily get too much for people and in other industries wouldn’t be tolerated. I’ve just spoken to someone working in an office up London only on about £33k that gets 3 well-being hours a week to take off their normal working hours which are also flexible
Even with the money being paid which to a degree isn’t great, the lack of proper training and proper driving assessments just aren’t at the level they need to be at for the majority of people to drive in a professional manner. The shocking lack of familiarity some drivers have about the vehicles they are driving for up to 10 hours a day really concerns me, I’ve seen staff notices while I was at Stagecoach explaining how to operate the heating controls on an Enviro, the mind boggles, but moving into more concerning things, ferry lift. Ferry lift is a feature that raises the suspension of the bus and allows it to have greater ground clearance, this has got me out of so many sticky situations and has prevented damage being caused to the bus yet I bet 75% of drivers don’t know what it is, how to operate it or have the forward thinking to use it when needed and end up damaging panels/components unnecessarily. The thing with driving assessments that really bothers me is that some of them carried out by TfL don’t even last for 10mins, in 10 mins what are you really judging?
Another issue regardless of how you drive, professionally or unprofessionally, fast or slow, calm or aggressive, ultimately you are paid the same and lot of people see that as why bother doing the job properly and start messing about without a care for the people that are trying to or have to put up with the service.
As much as some people will say it’s a nightmare driving up London with all the cyclists and other idiots in the road, spend a good few weeks doing various rail replacement routes outside of London for Southern and Southeastern, that can be a real nightmare, having low trees that will smash the blind glass out of a single decker, blind bends that you need to completely occupy the other lane to make the turn, camber where the bus will ground out if you take the corner at the wrong angle/have a full bus/don’t use ferry lift, the list of challenges doing rail is far worse that service driving in London.
I don’t think many people enjoy the job anymore but I wouldn’t say that going to HGV’s is much different, depending on the work you do it can be just as bad and thankless
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Post by mkay315 on May 14, 2023 18:46:33 GMT
So my honest opinion on this discussion is that whilst bus drivers aren't looked at favourably by many people it is still a VITAL role for people as companies need bus drivers to get the masses of the public around from A to B. There are many people who are drivers that do have degrees on their name but they initially may have wanted the bus driver job just to keep themselves afloat and ended up liking the role thus they stayed on. Like with anything in life you do need skills to learn the mechanical side of things should a bus vehicle malfunction whilst you're operating it. Of course a person that's a surgeon will need an extensive training on this as it is an intensive thing to do and so many factors are involved in it. Both a surgeon and a bus driver has their place in society and people need to understand this. A DEGREE DOES NOT GUARANTEE SUCCESS. GONE OF THE DAYS WHERE UNIVERSITY WAS SEEN AS THE HOLY GRAIL. Me personally if I had known what I know now I most definitely would have gone down the apprenticeship route. The part in the second paragraph was me. I was the first year in uni to be under tuition fees from New Labour; at the time I remember many students then saying not to vote for Blair because of what he proposed, I did not think they would do it, in the end they did to my disappointment. It cost me a lot of money £1000 where my brother who went years before did not have to pay. I remember a lot of students started and dropped out mid term when the uni kept demanding the fees from them, it was such a shame! After year 2, stupidly I wanted to get a part time job and could not get anything and went to look for a bus driving job. I had interviews on the same day for both Arriva & Stagecoach as I wanted to drive the Metrobus or the Titan (I was more fond of the Titan though). Arriva said to me that I could not go part time, then Stagecoach said the same thing. I was going out the door, then changed my mind and said I would do it for a few months and take a year out from uni, as I probably would never get to drive a Titan in service as they were on the way out. In the end I never went back to uni and got too comfortable with the job. At least I got to drive the Titan in service, even if it was only for 4 months. A lot of people at uni from my classes never got jobs within the field they studied for. One lecturer did warn us of this and said if we are expecting to, then go out the door and leave the campus as you would be disappointed if you do not get a job in the field. Of course these things do happen and I'm guessing you've learnt a lot of life experiences along the way. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on May 14, 2023 20:29:28 GMT
Lack of career progression not true. Plenty of other roles within the bus company that you can do other than driving. Then perhaps emphasis should be placed on that. The recruitment ads that have been popping up in France emphasise this. For people who've been told all their life that bus driving is 'low skilled' it's not immediately obvious. |
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Post by redbus on May 14, 2023 21:10:35 GMT
I have a good point here, some people complain about fast driving and dangerous driving from all the companies..... But have they stopped and thought about how they are obsessed with old low floor buses at running days and open days and forever demanding the drivers to give those buses a good thrashing etc? use kick down, do this, do that etc Asking drivers to thrash out those buses is just as dangerous as what they are moaning about it the 1st place! As for how TFL is run, blame Sadiq Khan and what he signs off and spends funds on. Do we need new buses? No we don't, we need cycle lane schemes which make roads smaller and causes more traffic, no we don't and other schemes he likes to throw money at to look good. What needs doing, is tube station upgrades, new trains, improved service, more affordable fares and cost of living in London. He is obsessed with ULEZ he is, stupid idea. Who ever voted for this clown. Both Khan and our PM Sunak need to be shown the door. As for TFL, they could not run a bath, yet alone a transport network. Long gone are the days where people stay in the job and work there way up, companies now take people straight from uni who have not the basic clue as to what is what. Enough said. Most buses are now being fitted with ISA now so the bus cannot exceed the local speed limit. Indeed, and it will be interesting to see what impact ISA has on injuries and deaths from buses. My fear is that it will make little, if any, difference as bus drivers are professional drivers who arguably drive safely at a sensible speed. I could be wrong but I don't think there are many bus accidents involving TfL buses where injuries or death have resulted due to speed limits being broken. |
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Post by gwiwer on May 14, 2023 21:20:42 GMT
Most buses are now being fitted with ISA now so the bus cannot exceed the local speed limit. Indeed, and it will be interesting to see what impact ISA has on injuries and deaths from buses. My fear is that it will make little, if any, difference as bus drivers are professional drivers who arguably drive safely at a sensible speed. I could be wrong but I don't think there are many bus accidents involving TfL buses where injuries or death have resulted due to speed limits being broken. That might also have a significant impact on timekeeping especially of night buses. It is known that when the roads are clear buses will often travel at closer to 30mph than 20mph in 20mph limits in order to maintain or catch up time. Police seem to turn a blind eye as buses are driven by professionals who are invariably fighting the clock and doing their best against the odds. So long as the vehicle is being driven well and courteously there seems to be no action taken in regard to excess speed. I use the N22 on a fairly regular basis. Often inbound in the early hours (so one of the later journeys on that timetable). They start from Fulwell on time but will be late by Richmond if 20mph is adhered to. Then there's the guessing game as to how the driver will tackle the awkward mini-roundabout at Crown Road. Correctly it's all the way around to the left. Often it's straight over the bump and occasionally it's on the right-hand side of it. But never in a manner I (as a coach / bus licence holder and experienced driver) consider to be dangerous in the conditions. There's very little traffic around at 3 or 4am. |
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Post by redbus on May 14, 2023 21:47:28 GMT
Indeed, and it will be interesting to see what impact ISA has on injuries and deaths from buses. My fear is that it will make little, if any, difference as bus drivers are professional drivers who arguably drive safely at a sensible speed. I could be wrong but I don't think there are many bus accidents involving TfL buses where injuries or death have resulted due to speed limits being broken. That might also have a significant impact on timekeeping especially of night buses. It is known that when the roads are clear buses will often travel at closer to 30mph than 20mph in 20mph limits in order to maintain or catch up time. Police seem to turn a blind eye as buses are driven by professionals who are invariably fighting the clock and doing their best against the odds. So long as the vehicle is being driven well and courteously there seems to be no action taken in regard to excess speed. I use the N22 on a fairly regular basis. Often inbound in the early hours (so one of the later journeys on that timetable). They start from Fulwell on time but will be late by Richmond if 20mph is adhered to. Then there's the guessing game as to how the driver will tackle the awkward mini-roundabout at Crown Road. Correctly it's all the way around to the left. Often it's straight over the bump and occasionally it's on the right-hand side of it. But never in a manner I (as a coach / bus licence holder and experienced driver) consider to be dangerous in the conditions. There's very little traffic around at 3 or 4am. Bus timetables should have sufficient time for traffic conditions, even at night. 20 mph limits will mean journeys take longer and more buses will be required to maintain headway. Longer journey times may also mean fewer passengers. If TfL and local authorities decide on these lower speed limits then they need to find the consequential additional funds which includes funding buses. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 14, 2023 21:53:37 GMT
I think one of the main problems now is that the job is incentivised as a quick way to make money and so many people just don’t care about the job they are doing or take pride in any of it, the way you are treated by the public, management and controllers can easily get too much for people and in other industries wouldn’t be tolerated. I’ve just spoken to someone working in an office up London only on about £33k that gets 3 well-being hours a week to take off their normal working hours which are also flexible Even with the money being paid which to a degree isn’t great, the lack of proper training and proper driving assessments just aren’t at the level they need to be at for the majority of people to drive in a professional manner. The shocking lack of familiarity some drivers have about the vehicles they are driving for up to 10 hours a day really concerns me, I’ve seen staff notices while I was at Stagecoach explaining how to operate the heating controls on an Enviro, the mind boggles, but moving into more concerning things, ferry lift. Ferry lift is a feature that raises the suspension of the bus and allows it to have greater ground clearance, this has got me out of so many sticky situations and has prevented damage being caused to the bus yet I bet 75% of drivers don’t know what it is, how to operate it or have the forward thinking to use it when needed and end up damaging panels/components unnecessarily. The thing with driving assessments that really bothers me is that some of them carried out by TfL don’t even last for 10mins, in 10 mins what are you really judging? Another issue regardless of how you drive, professionally or unprofessionally, fast or slow, calm or aggressive, ultimately you are paid the same and lot of people see that as why bother doing the job properly and start messing about without a care for the people that are trying to or have to put up with the service. As much as some people will say it’s a nightmare driving up London with all the cyclists and other idiots in the road, spend a good few weeks doing various rail replacement routes outside of London for Southern and Southeastern, that can be a real nightmare, having low trees that will smash the blind glass out of a single decker, blind bends that you need to completely occupy the other lane to make the turn, camber where the bus will ground out if you take the corner at the wrong angle/have a full bus/don’t use ferry lift, the list of challenges doing rail is far worse that service driving in London. I don’t think many people enjoy the job anymore but I wouldn’t say that going to HGV’s is much different, depending on the work you do it can be just as bad and thankless Many see the job as though it is a job at Mc Donalds now, with no intention of staying for a few years. It is shocking that many do not even know the basics of the drivers cab and sit in it hours in the day. Some do not bother to read any literature, manuals etc. notices. The TfL driving assessments used to be longer years ago, I cannot remember when it changed. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 14, 2023 21:55:17 GMT
Most buses are now being fitted with ISA now so the bus cannot exceed the local speed limit. Indeed, and it will be interesting to see what impact ISA has on injuries and deaths from buses. My fear is that it will make little, if any, difference as bus drivers are professional drivers who arguably drive safely at a sensible speed. I could be wrong but I don't think there are many bus accidents involving TfL buses where injuries or death have resulted due to speed limits being broken. The vast majority are down to harsh braking, mainly drivers been cut up by other vehicles or lack of attention. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 14, 2023 21:56:43 GMT
That might also have a significant impact on timekeeping especially of night buses. It is known that when the roads are clear buses will often travel at closer to 30mph than 20mph in 20mph limits in order to maintain or catch up time. Police seem to turn a blind eye as buses are driven by professionals who are invariably fighting the clock and doing their best against the odds. So long as the vehicle is being driven well and courteously there seems to be no action taken in regard to excess speed. I use the N22 on a fairly regular basis. Often inbound in the early hours (so one of the later journeys on that timetable). They start from Fulwell on time but will be late by Richmond if 20mph is adhered to. Then there's the guessing game as to how the driver will tackle the awkward mini-roundabout at Crown Road. Correctly it's all the way around to the left. Often it's straight over the bump and occasionally it's on the right-hand side of it. But never in a manner I (as a coach / bus licence holder and experienced driver) consider to be dangerous in the conditions. There's very little traffic around at 3 or 4am. Bus timetables should have sufficient time for traffic conditions, even at night. 20 mph limits will mean journeys take longer and more buses will be required to maintain headway. Longer journey times may also mean fewer passengers. If TfL and local authorities decide on these lower speed limits then they need to find the consequential additional funds which includes funding buses. hahah, you would be lucky, there way around this is to reduce the pvr or frequency to give additional running time. |
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Post by redbus on May 14, 2023 22:43:02 GMT
Bus timetables should have sufficient time for traffic conditions, even at night. 20 mph limits will mean journeys take longer and more buses will be required to maintain headway. Longer journey times may also mean fewer passengers. If TfL and local authorities decide on these lower speed limits then they need to find the consequential additional funds which includes funding buses. hahah, you would be lucky, there way around this is to reduce the pvr or frequency to give additional running time. You are right that is what will happen, but that is because those that lead fail to account for the consequences of their actions. |
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Post by VPL630 on May 15, 2023 7:47:57 GMT
Lack of career progression not true. Plenty of other roles within the bus company that you can do other than driving. Then perhaps emphasis should be placed on that. The recruitment ads that have been popping up in France emphasise this. For people who've been told all their life that bus driving is 'low skilled' it's not immediately obvious. While there is career progression depending on the company you work for it might not be something you particularly want to do, at Stagecoach went up to assistant garage supervisor which I applied for multiple times, I sort of enjoyed it but the rota was rubbish, 1 weekend off every 4 weeks wasn’t my idea of fun, I did do it for a year and sucked it up but ultimately I was offered something better at Ensign and I didn’t really lose money, at Ensign I was offered the same job but knowing what it entailed I declined, I was much happier just doing driving, towards the end I was offered a fixed job that I’d been after for a while, I throughly enjoyed that it left me open to opportunities that just wouldn’t normally happen, going from doing a early morning E rail in Southend to a film job in Twickenham in the same day, carrying approx 100 police officers round London during the queen’s funeral, reversing a bendy bus onto a low loader after driving it back from Brighton, helping out in the office and explaining to TfL that we can’t just magic up 20 buses at 6pm on a Friday evening that all need to be on tacho for a route that we’ve never done over 60 miles away which is also high risk due to various low bridges. That was something that I enjoyed but at Ensign there wasn’t much that was higher that I had any interest in, at Stagecoach I could never deal with that rota full time as a GS, I could apply to go on a management course but believe it or not in the long run it still would have been a pay cut and I think another problem would be is that I would find it hard to discipline someone for doing something I know that I’ve done in the past, I’m just not that sort of person, we all make mistakes at the end of the day, we are not perfect and while some mistakes are worse than others it’s what you learn from your mistakes that matters. Unless you have an insight into how it all works, the things I’ve known drivers get disciplinary meetings for is just ridiculous “Not stopping at a bus stop when out of service” and various other things along those lines that shouldn’t even be brought to the drivers attention yet are and in some cases given such a harsh punishment when they have done very little wrong is 100% a great way for them to have little enjoyment of the job, I’m not saying everyone deserves a break but I think most management need to know the drivers they have working for them and try to understand situations better, I had an accident which was 100% my fault and I fully admitted to it, when pulled in about it a while later, I was asked how I felt about it, I asked if they watched the CCTV they said no, if they had, they would have clearly seen how I felt about it, how can you bring someone in for something they have done and not check the CCTV when it’s available and working? Anyway I think you have to look at what you want to do before you even apply to drive buses, for me buses was a back up plan for an apprenticeship that never came to be, I honestly didn’t want to drive buses but I couldn’t stand being at college anymore, I applied for a laugh as they got back to me in like 45 mins if that, the money was good so I stayed but moved about about a lot as I get bored easily and the parking restrictions at Leyton were just an unnecessary restriction, I got to work at any garage I wanted, drove over 60 routes and drove every type of bus in the fleet at the time bar the mirror cam buses, I did enjoy it and thought being a supervisor was what I wanted to do, in reality it was a headache, I still enjoyed some aspects of it, 8 drivers not turning up one morning was not one them and this was pre Covid. Ensign was a way out but now I’m doing something completely different outside of the bus industry and I’m much happier, I’ve never had so much time off work, the career progression exists and there are roles that I hope to work towards, the working environment is really enjoyable and training is thorough and extensive. |
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Post by gwiwer on May 15, 2023 18:43:53 GMT
Re speed limits and PVR yes there are many examples where PVR has been altered and running time increased due to the imposition of 20mph speed limits. Most roads are controlled by the local London Borough not TfL; the latter only has control of the trunk road network and most of those roads are still 30mph outside the very centre of London.
Boroughs are free to set their own standards which means constantly-changing rather than consistent limits. Crossing from one borough into the next the default limit can go up or down by 10mph.
20mph limits cause severe congestion. It is increasingly hard for motor traffic to overtake cyclists meaning everyone creeps along at the speed of the bike in front (they aren't all ridden by hares in lycra) until someone gets brave enough to dodge past. Buses by definition stop frequently. Every stop both slows the service speed and impacts overall road traffic speeds. BoJo might have been keen on us all walking but that will not save the London Bus as a species. Most bus journeys cannot be made reasonably by walking (or cycling) as he wished. Either due to the mobility of the passenger (or lack of it), the load they have with them (shopping, buggy or school bags) or simply the distance involved. Many bus passengers do not have access to a car as another option; in any case the bus should be seen as a means to reduce car use not as the option of last-resort.
Passengers are abandoning buses in droves. It is faster by other means when one is available. A bus constrained to 20mph maximum will achieve an average of perhaps 7mph if it makes a typical number of stops. Horse-and-cart was faster. The padding in some schedules also means buses hang around for ages at stop after stop while iBus merrily plays that little recording telling us that "The driver has been instructed to wait ..... " In other words they are running early. Usually through no fault of their own but because of excessive padding. Speed the services up and passengers will return. I used an 11 between Victoria and Liverpool Street in its last week of operation which took above an hour; that section used to be about a half-hour but could be done in 15 - 20 minutes in the evening given a clear road.
Increasing run times will not help night routes which are mostly on 30-minute headways now. Pad them out and you lose the even 30-minute headway or cut the stand times and risk late running. Adding another bus especially at night to the PVR is expensive.
TfL are their own worst enemies but the Boroughs must play their part too. Other than on purely local residential roads all bus routes should be a 30mph limit (or more on those few sections where the limit is already above that). I'm preaching to the converted in here. It is TfL, the Mayor and the leaders of the London Boroughs who need to be told and forced to get London moving once again.
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Post by northlondon83 on May 16, 2023 1:32:19 GMT
Re speed limits and PVR yes there are many examples where PVR has been altered and running time increased due to the imposition of 20mph speed limits. Most roads are controlled by the local London Borough not TfL; the latter only has control of the trunk road network and most of those roads are still 30mph outside the very centre of London. Boroughs are free to set their own standards which means constantly-changing rather than consistent limits. Crossing from one borough into the next the default limit can go up or down by 10mph. 20mph limits cause severe congestion. It is increasingly hard for motor traffic to overtake cyclists meaning everyone creeps along at the speed of the bike in front (they aren't all ridden by hares in lycra) until someone gets brave enough to dodge past. Buses by definition stop frequently. Every stop both slows the service speed and impacts overall road traffic speeds. BoJo might have been keen on us all walking but that will not save the London Bus as a species. Most bus journeys cannot be made reasonably by walking (or cycling) as he wished. Either due to the mobility of the passenger (or lack of it), the load they have with them (shopping, buggy or school bags) or simply the distance involved. Many bus passengers do not have access to a car as another option; in any case the bus should be seen as a means to reduce car use not as the option of last-resort. Passengers are abandoning buses in droves. It is faster by other means when one is available. A bus constrained to 20mph maximum will achieve an average of perhaps 7mph if it makes a typical number of stops. Horse-and-cart was faster. The padding in some schedules also means buses hang around for ages at stop after stop while iBus merrily plays that little recording telling us that "The driver has been instructed to wait ..... " In other words they are running early. Usually through no fault of their own but because of excessive padding. Speed the services up and passengers will return. I used an 11 between Victoria and Liverpool Street in its last week of operation which took above an hour; that section used to be about a half-hour but could be done in 15 - 20 minutes in the evening given a clear road. Increasing run times will not help night routes which are mostly on 30-minute headways now. Pad them out and you lose the even 30-minute headway or cut the stand times and risk late running. Adding another bus especially at night to the PVR is expensive. TfL are their own worst enemies but the Boroughs must play their part too. Other than on purely local residential roads all bus routes should be a 30mph limit (or more on those few sections where the limit is already above that). I'm preaching to the converted in here. It is TfL, the Mayor and the leaders of the London Boroughs who need to be told and forced to get London moving once again. I feel that a 30mph speed limit should be enforced again in most areas that are currently 20. Traffic levels are pretty bad in the day and in my part of London traffic constantly builds up on most stretches of Uxbridge Road in the borough of Ealing where it is 20mph. In most cases it will be quicker to take a train and if you have a rail card cheaper if you're avoiding zone 1. |
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At least I got to drive the Titan in service, even if it was only for 4 months.
