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Post by mkay315 on May 14, 2023 7:43:44 GMT
Morning folks. So after reading the pages of comments in the Go Ahead thread I've decided to set up a thread here. Eastlondoner62 and DT 11 FYI.
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Post by mkay315 on May 14, 2023 8:17:28 GMT
So my honest opinion on this discussion is that whilst bus drivers aren't looked at favourably by many people it is still a VITAL role for people as companies need bus drivers to get the masses of the public around from A to B.
There are many people who are drivers that do have degrees on their name but they initially may have wanted the bus driver job just to keep themselves afloat and ended up liking the role thus they stayed on. Like with anything in life you do need skills to learn the mechanical side of things should a bus vehicle malfunction whilst you're operating it. Of course a person that's a surgeon will need an extensive training on this as it is an intensive thing to do and so many factors are involved in it. Both a surgeon and a bus driver has their place in society and people need to understand this.
A DEGREE DOES NOT GUARANTEE SUCCESS. GONE OF THE DAYS WHERE UNIVERSITY WAS SEEN AS THE HOLY GRAIL. Me personally if I had known what I know now I most definitely would have gone down the apprenticeship route.
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Post by Green Kitten on May 14, 2023 8:31:07 GMT
Agreed with your last point. I must say I was arrogant enough to think I would be ‘headhunted’ for having the degree I earned (which ended up as a Desmond Tutu anyway). Deservedly, this wasn’t the case. Probably should have spent more time at the library instead of partying and joining 86 different societies…
I enjoy a rewarding career which has absolutely no relation to my degree. The mistakes I’ve made mean I don’t have some prestigious title in a big 4 company or a finance job, but I’m happy where I am now.
To be honest there aren’t too many high-paying jobs in the industry of my degree’s subject.
I do have some regrets (I’m the first to say I should have worked harder) about uni, especially starting my first year where fees were raised to £9,000 (an utter joke). An ex-coworker of mine did a TfL apprenticeship, and is now moving to service control (another one who went the same path is a service control manager for the sub-surface lines). Imagine 3 more years in my career without the huge ball and chain of a student loan. Then again, I was not thinking about a career in transport as a possibility until after my final year exams.
I think bus driving is a skilled job, dealing with tough road conditions and characters whilst ensuring the safety of up to 90 passengers. I would be interested in getting a PCV and doing some weekend work…
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Post by LondonNorthern on May 14, 2023 8:35:17 GMT
So my honest opinion on this discussion is that whilst bus drivers aren't looked at favourably by many people it is still a VITAL role for people as companies need bus drivers to get the masses of the public around from A to B. There are many people who are drivers that do have degrees on their name but they initially may have wanted the bus driver job just to keep themselves afloat and ended up liking the role thus they stayed on. Like with anything in life you do need skills to learn the mechanical side of things should a bus vehicle malfunction whilst you're operating it. Of course a person that's a surgeon will need an extensive training on this as it is an intensive thing to do and so many factors are involved in it. Both a surgeon and a bus driver has their place in society and people need to understand this. A DEGREE DOES NOT GUARANTEE SUCCESS. GONE OF THE DAYS WHERE UNIVERSITY WAS SEEN AS THE HOLY GRAIL. Me personally if I had known what I know now I most definitely would have gone down the apprenticeship route. Lots of jobs also just require a degree now meaning that when you attend university you don't actually have to specialize in anything and can choose a degree that you enjoy.
I know some people who did engineering degrees and said they could've easily learnt the same things on a degree apprenticeship, which while are hard to get, leave you with 0 student debt and pay you in equally beneficial things such as experience
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Post by northlondon83 on May 14, 2023 8:42:37 GMT
So my honest opinion on this discussion is that whilst bus drivers aren't looked at favourably by many people it is still a VITAL role for people as companies need bus drivers to get the masses of the public around from A to B. There are many people who are drivers that do have degrees on their name but they initially may have wanted the bus driver job just to keep themselves afloat and ended up liking the role thus they stayed on. Like with anything in life you do need skills to learn the mechanical side of things should a bus vehicle malfunction whilst you're operating it. Of course a person that's a surgeon will need an extensive training on this as it is an intensive thing to do and so many factors are involved in it. Both a surgeon and a bus driver has their place in society and people need to understand this. A DEGREE DOES NOT GUARANTEE SUCCESS. GONE OF THE DAYS WHERE UNIVERSITY WAS SEEN AS THE HOLY GRAIL. Me personally if I had known what I know now I most definitely would have gone down the apprenticeship route. Same here, a uni degree is overvalued/overrated especially by schools. And it's not easy. You have to put a huge commitment into your studies to get to where you want to be later in life. Not many people realize this but it's one of the first challenges of adulthood. I went to uni in 2021 not knowing whether it was really for me however dropped out a few months later having found that it wasn't the right thing to do. And I found a job that's got nothing to do with my degree, even when I was at uni I didn't feel like I wanted to do anything with my degree. So it's not for everyone, some people strive in this environment yet some will struggle
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Post by matthieu1221 on May 14, 2023 10:30:58 GMT
Going back to the entire 'low skilled' debate, whether we like it or not, bus driving is perceived as being that by a non negligible part of the population (and not only in the UK). 'Low skilled' with all the preconceptions which come with it: low pay, unsociable working hours, lack of career progression etc... Those perceptions will need to be change if young people in particular are to be attracted to the job.
I think an interesting contrast is how Uber driver is usually not deemed 'low skill'. There's various factors for this which in my opinion include the perception that you've got flexible working hours, it's a (more) comfortable working environment, a feeling of being a sort of entrepreneur of your own (?) and for some, it's simply a side-gig. I wonder if it's possible to replicate some of what makes Uber driving so attractive when compared to bus driving. Things will need to change regardless.
Over in France, some levers being played with include, of course, pay, and more interestingly ad recruitment campaigns which place an importance on the importance of the job to the community, and the career 'satisfaction'/fulfillment you can get from it (along with an emphasis with the fact that there are apprenticeships which make it open for people wanting a career change). Essentially, attempting to get rid of the 'low skilled' stigma.
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Post by DT 11 on May 14, 2023 10:46:58 GMT
Lack of career progression not true. Plenty of other roles within the bus company that you can do other than driving.
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Post by DT 11 on May 14, 2023 10:52:14 GMT
I did not read the remaining paragraphs. I do not have an agenda. I simply do not agree with what you stated originally in relation to low skilled that is all. I have a different point of view you see. I really have no interest in what facts state, the so called “fact finders” need to actually sit in the hot seat of those doing such jobs and soon realise they are talking rubbish and are narrow minded. I also did go to University for three years too and funny enough I found it quite interesting to be one of the only ones on my course to actually take it seriously whilst everyone was out getting drunk etc made sure I did my studies bit by bit. I refused to be a person to stay up all night to complete an assignment the night before it is due. Made sure it was done a least 1 week before! Regardless of what is required to do a job people can bring additional things to the table that they may have knowledge of such as First Aid which could potentially save a life. So the idea of identifying a number of skills is very wrong in my eyes. Sorry for going off topic but I have to say I agree with your points about university. Many people go straight out of high school aged 18 aren't mature enough to go to uni. It's a very big decision to make and whilst there are those who aspire to be surgeons, lawyers, scientists etc a lot of them just go for the partying and the fact that you get a huge maintenance loan. I do think that uni is filled with socially immature people who will end up blowing their money weeks before the next term starts. Of course there are hardworking people like you, but the vast majority of people going to uni do something completely different with their degree. That being said each job has skills and even those professions that people sometimes look down on, like bin men are still an integral part of society. Yes they don't get paid much and work unsociable hours but if bin men didn't exist our streets would be full of rubbish Taken from the Go Ahead London thread. I agree with all of the above. I experienced a lot of the above when I went to University and many other things. For some yes as soon as they got their loan spend it on every and everything.
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Post by DT 11 on May 14, 2023 10:55:28 GMT
Sorry for going off topic but I have to say I agree with your points about university. Many people go straight out of high school aged 18 aren't mature enough to go to uni. It's a very big decision to make and whilst there are those who aspire to be surgeons, lawyers, scientists etc a lot of them just go for the partying and the fact that you get a huge maintenance loan. I do think that uni is filled with socially immature people who will end up blowing their money weeks before the next term starts. Of course there are hardworking people like you, but the vast majority of people going to uni do something completely different with their degree. That being said each job has skills and even those professions that people sometimes look down on, like bin men are still an integral part of society. Yes they don't get paid much and work unsociable hours but if bin men didn't exist our streets would be full of rubbish Actually bin men get paid really well, mostly due to attracting people to an unattractive job. The average pay is 31,000 in London, with the lorry operator getting a couple grand extra for the HGV operation and memory of the rounds. Needless to say I've had many chats with my bin men! Cannot encourage this action enough; they normally stick to the same rounds so why not grab a chat with people who viist your house every week? They're human beings too! Taken from the Go Ahead London thread I am not surprised to hear this. Who would want to live in a city where bins and not emptied and streets not cleaned. Place would be swarming with Rats and Mice. The same goes for cleaners who clean various public places.
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TA242
Conductor
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Post by TA242 on May 14, 2023 10:58:05 GMT
Lack of career progression not true. Plenty of other roles within the bus company that you can do other than driving. The 'traditional' way of progressing is starting off as a driver and seeking promotion, for example to an operations manager at a garage or as a controller. Quite a few people I know in the industry have done this, thus proving your point.
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Post by mkay315 on May 14, 2023 12:03:56 GMT
Agreed with your last point. I must say I was arrogant enough to think I would be ‘headhunted’ for having the degree I earned (which ended up as a Desmond Tutu anyway). Deservedly, this wasn’t the case. Probably should have spent more time at the library instead of partying and joining 86 different societies… I enjoy a rewarding career which has absolutely no relation to my degree. The mistakes I’ve made mean I don’t have some prestigious title in a big 4 company or a finance job, but I’m happy where I am now. To be honest there aren’t too many high-paying jobs in the industry of my degree’s subject. I do have some regrets (I’m the first to say I should have worked harder) about uni, especially starting my first year where fees were raised to £9,000 (an utter joke). An ex-coworker of mine did a TfL apprenticeship, and is now moving to service control (another one who went the same path is a service control manager for the sub-surface lines). Imagine 3 more years in my career without the huge ball and chain of a student loan. Then again, I was not thinking about a career in transport as a possibility until after my final year exams. I think bus driving is a skilled job, dealing with tough road conditions and characters whilst ensuring the safety of up to 90 passengers. I would be interested in getting a PCV and doing some weekend work… Adding onto what you said about service control in tfl. Those are also jobs that require a lot of training before one can get into the role. There are many jobs out there that people think it's pee easy to do until its your neck on the line to make a key decision. From what I know about the service control in tfl they deal with the running of the train, some deal with the line information, others deal with the signalling aspect of things and so all of those roles together are very important in the operational sense. For instance to be a signaller it requires you to know where each trains are and what to do should an incident occur. Should one make a fatal mistake then loads of questions will be asked and you will have to account for EVERY decision you make as they do record calls. For those that remembered a few years back you only have to look at the Peckham Rye fiasco that happened with Overground back in 2017 as an example on what not to do.
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Post by dave12345 on May 14, 2023 12:41:03 GMT
I have a good point here, some people complain about fast driving and dangerous driving from all the companies..... But have they stopped and thought about how they are obsessed with old low floor buses at running days and open days and forever demanding the drivers to give those buses a good thrashing etc? use kick down, do this, do that etc
Asking drivers to thrash out those buses is just as dangerous as what they are moaning about it the 1st place!
As for how TFL is run, blame Sadiq Khan and what he signs off and spends funds on.
Do we need new buses? No we don't, we need cycle lane schemes which make roads smaller and causes more traffic, no we don't and other schemes he likes to throw money at to look good.
What needs doing, is tube station upgrades, new trains, improved service, more affordable fares and cost of living in London.
He is obsessed with ULEZ he is, stupid idea.
Who ever voted for this clown. Both Khan and our PM Sunak need to be shown the door.
As for TFL, they could not run a bath, yet alone a transport network. Long gone are the days where people stay in the job and work there way up, companies now take people straight from uni who have not the basic clue as to what is what.
Enough said.
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pilk
Conductor
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Post by pilk on May 14, 2023 13:26:24 GMT
I have a good point here, some people complain about fast driving and dangerous driving from all the companies..... But have they stopped and thought about how they are obsessed with old low floor buses at running days and open days and forever demanding the drivers to give those buses a good thrashing etc? use kick down, do this, do that etc Asking drivers to thrash out those buses is just as dangerous as what they are moaning about it the 1st place! As for how TFL is run, blame Sadiq Khan and what he signs off and spends funds on. Do we need new buses? No we don't, we need cycle lane schemes which make roads smaller and causes more traffic, no we don't and other schemes he likes to throw money at to look good. What needs doing, is tube station upgrades, new trains, improved service, more affordable fares and cost of living in London. He is obsessed with ULEZ he is, stupid idea. Who ever voted for this clown. Both Khan and our PM Sunak need to be shown the door. As for TFL, they could not run a bath, yet alone a transport network. Long gone are the days where people stay in the job and work there way up, companies now take people straight from uni who have not the basic clue as to what is what. Enough said. Good point? Do you really think drivers thrash buses to keep enthusiasts happy? Of course we do need new buses and cycle lanes. A lot of operators have long serving staff.
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Post by vjaska on May 14, 2023 13:41:05 GMT
I have a good point here, some people complain about fast driving and dangerous driving from all the companies..... But have they stopped and thought about how they are obsessed with old low floor buses at running days and open days and forever demanding the drivers to give those buses a good thrashing etc? use kick down, do this, do that etc Asking drivers to thrash out those buses is just as dangerous as what they are moaning about it the 1st place! As for how TFL is run, blame Sadiq Khan and what he signs off and spends funds on. Do we need new buses? No we don't, we need cycle lane schemes which make roads smaller and causes more traffic, no we don't and other schemes he likes to throw money at to look good. What needs doing, is tube station upgrades, new trains, improved service, more affordable fares and cost of living in London. He is obsessed with ULEZ he is, stupid idea. Who ever voted for this clown. Both Khan and our PM Sunak need to be shown the door. As for TFL, they could not run a bath, yet alone a transport network. Long gone are the days where people stay in the job and work there way up, companies now take people straight from uni who have not the basic clue as to what is what. Enough said. Thrashing buses and dangerous driving are two completely different things - I’ve been on many buses that have been thrashed yet were within the speed limit and were causing no danger to other road users. Most running days now take place outside of London due to the many blocks put in place against older vehicles and outside London, roads generally have higher speed limits Every operator will refresh their bus stock every so often and of course, new awards are more difficult to source existing stock for it so new buses will always be needed
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on May 14, 2023 13:46:13 GMT
I have a good point here, some people complain about fast driving and dangerous driving from all the companies..... But have they stopped and thought about how they are obsessed with old low floor buses at running days and open days and forever demanding the drivers to give those buses a good thrashing etc? use kick down, do this, do that etc Asking drivers to thrash out those buses is just as dangerous as what they are moaning about it the 1st place! As for how TFL is run, blame Sadiq Khan and what he signs off and spends funds on. Do we need new buses? No we don't, we need cycle lane schemes which make roads smaller and causes more traffic, no we don't and other schemes he likes to throw money at to look good. What needs doing, is tube station upgrades, new trains, improved service, more affordable fares and cost of living in London. He is obsessed with ULEZ he is, stupid idea. Who ever voted for this clown. Both Khan and our PM Sunak need to be shown the door. As for TFL, they could not run a bath, yet alone a transport network. Long gone are the days where people stay in the job and work there way up, companies now take people straight from uni who have not the basic clue as to what is what. Enough said. Every operator will refresh their bus stock every so often and of course, new awards are more difficult to source existing stock for it so new buses will always be needed Apart from Arriva London
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