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Post by allentc on Sept 25, 2023 16:19:51 GMT
I spotted an offshoot of a conversation on another thread. It so happened to be a topic I was going to raise.
As bus enthusiasts many of us like riding and seeking out buses perhaps hunting down (or avoiding!) specific anomalous examples of a batch that might have individual characteristics such as:
- Gearboxes: tuneful noises, shift quality. Differences between Allison, ZF and Voith.
- Engines: roar, burble, rumble, turbo whistle. Differences between generations of Cummins, Volvo, Mercedes etc. engines.
- Performance characteristics: kickdown enabled, engine/gearbox mapping, fast acceleration
But do you get the same enjoyment riding EV buses as you do fully diesel or to an extent hybrid ones?
As an enthusiast I find them all pretty much the same apart from a slight variance in drive-train whine. They all either as a batch or individual examples accelerate, brake and sound the same to me and if there are any differences they aren't as stark as with diesels. I'm not saying they are bad vehicles in fact they offer a very pleasant environment for non-enthusiast passengers with smooth linear acceleration and a quiet ride. Maybe I'm wrong and perhaps in 30 years time the members of this forum will be reminiscing about the qualities of long gone BYD/AD Enviro 400EVs, Wright Electroliners and Caetano E.City Golds! Whilst they are still there I will be hunting down diesels and to a degree hybrids but I'm not so sure if I will have much or any enthusiasm for doing the same with EV buses. Do you feel the same?
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Post by Busboy105 on Sept 25, 2023 16:28:33 GMT
I spotted an offshoot of a conversation on another thread. It so happened to be a topic I was going to raise.
As bus enthusiasts many of us like riding and seeking out buses perhaps hunting down (or avoiding!) specific anomalous examples of a batch that might have individual characteristics such as:
- Gearboxes: tuneful noises, shift quality. Differences between Allison, ZF and Voith.
- Engines: roar, burble, rumble, turbo whistle. Differences between generations of Cummins, Volvo, Mercedes etc. engines.
- Performance characteristics: kickdown enabled, engine/gearbox mapping, fast acceleration
But do you get the same enjoyment riding EV buses as you do fully diesel or to an extent hybrid ones?
As an enthusiast I find them all pretty much the same apart from a slight variance in drive-train whine. They all either as a batch or individual examples accelerate, brake and sound the same to me and if there are any differences they aren't as stark as with diesels. I'm not saying they are bad vehicles in fact they offer a very pleasant environment for non-enthusiast passengers with smooth linear acceleration and a quiet ride. Maybe I'm wrong and perhaps in 30 years time the members of this forum will be reminiscing about the qualities of long gone BYD/AD Enviro 400EVs, Wright Electroliners and Caetano E.City Golds! Whilst they are still there I will be hunting down diesels and to a degree hybrids but I'm not so sure if I will have much or any enthusiasm for doing the same with EV buses. Do you feel the same?
I find EVs bland personally however I do like the BYD single deckers, especially the ex Red Arrow. But they are nothing like the diesels i grew up with (DLA, VLA, DWs etc) |
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Post by yunus on Sept 25, 2023 16:31:50 GMT
Very good thread created, well from my point of view anyway 🙂
As all know by now I am a major Diesel fan, main reason is as I have grown up with them and secondly the quality of ride they offer, the feel / vibration of the bus.
Currently I am doing my best to only travel on Diesel buses "alone" whilst it is still possible. I predict this will be the final year of it being possible as many many routes convert to Hybrid & Electric next year. Probably using all will be needed next year so I would rather spare all my free time to Diesels alone.
Where a Diesel is not available, normally I wl opt for the train but I do a hell lot of walking in Central London where they do not operate.
It feels weird tbh as just 5 - 6 years ago, Diesel buses were the domiant in London (even Hybrids were not popular). Amazing how things can change so quickly!
I do not hate Hybrids or Electrics but simply do not support them being needed (said before), the batteries will cause issues and they are much more expensive than conventional Diesel buses.
Think I have said enough for now. I am glad that counties outside of London are still ordering new Diesels.
Again, nice thread 👌
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Post by abellion on Sept 25, 2023 16:55:04 GMT
No, unless there’s a heatwave  |
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Post by VPL630 on Sept 25, 2023 17:30:47 GMT
No, there is very little I like about an EV bus at all
A Hydrogen bus is slightly more interesting but it's still an EV and I only really like them because I like the technical side of them
BYD and the ADL cheapness have not helped my view of them
I've also had some rides on BYD's that have been awful with the driver only being able to have his foot to the floor and then stamp on the brakes, I just don't like them at all
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Post by greenboy on Sept 25, 2023 17:37:34 GMT
Personally I think they're great,nice smooth ride without the rattles and vibrations you often get with diesels.
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Post by WH241 on Sept 25, 2023 17:42:22 GMT
Personally I think they're great,nice smooth ride without the rattles and vibrations you often get with diesels. The ones I have used haven’t been that great! Perhaps poor road conditions in Newham are to blame. |
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Post by VWH1413 on Sept 25, 2023 18:06:31 GMT
Yes and no. It’s still hard for me to judge properly as I mainly bump into hybrid buses and still feel a preference for diesels and rapid early hybrids (esp Gemini 2s). Barring few VWs an early TEs at UX, most diesels don’t do it for me and are just bog standard now.
That saying I have had an good time using the WHDs on my local 245 and feel they can be thrashy with the right driver (IIRC Sudbury has an nice thrash section), that sat well coming home joyriding on an fast 83 VW.
The 134 OMEs while unreliable are surprisingly fast and on 3 occasions coming home driver didn’t want to mess around.
In fact would much rather ride those than a bog standard Gemini 3. Esp if it has a bad ESS battery.
Don’t care for BYD/ADL stuff barring an X140 stint. Bland and boring.
Can’t comment on WDEs.
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Post by yunus on Sept 25, 2023 18:15:28 GMT
I wish TFL just stayed with Diesel.
Good on operators outside in counties and Sullivans who run a few TFL services.
Do not wish to repeat myself but seems they have a lot of money to spend and feed false info (my opinion) about HEV/EV being clean. They ofc cannot explain the battery disposal side of things.
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Post by ADH45258 on Sept 25, 2023 18:43:02 GMT
Yes and no. It’s still hard for me to judge properly as I mainly bump into hybrid buses and still feel a preference for diesels and rapid early hybrids (esp Gemini 2s). Barring few VWs an early TEs at UX, most diesels don’t do it for me and are just bog standard now. That saying I have had an good time using the WHDs on my local 245 and feel they can be thrashy with the right driver (IIRC Sudbury has an nice thrash section), that sat well coming home joyriding on an fast 83 VW. The 134 OMEs while unreliable are surprisingly fast and on 3 occasions coming home driver didn’t want to mess around. In fact would much rather ride those than a bog standard Gemini 3. Esp if it has a bad ESS battery. Don’t care for BYD/ADL stuff barring an X140 stint. Bland and boring. Can’t comment on WDEs. Having compared the batches of both types at EW, from a passenger perspective the BDEs are generally nicer (apart from the rear seating layout downstairs) - however I think it was mentioned that drivers seem to prefer the WDEs. In my opinion, again as a passenger, the OMEs are my preferred electric DD so far, but obviously have their reliability problems. Not sure what the general opinion is on electric SDs in London so far, with GB Kites, ieTrams and BZLs yet to enter service, and only a small number of Metrocities and Caetanos alongside the E200EVs. Abellio's eCity Golds certainly add more variety, but I can't see them ordering any more for now, with Wrights due for the E7 and possibly the E6 too. The RV1's hydrogens were always interesting too, it's a shame they couldn't be moved to another route after the 444 was lost. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Sept 25, 2023 19:11:03 GMT
I wish TFL just stayed with Diesel. Good on operators outside in counties and Sullivans who run a few TFL services. Do not wish to repeat myself but seems they have a lot of money to spend and feed false info (my opinion) about HEV/EV being clean. They ofc cannot explain the battery disposal side of things. The reason those operators cannot afford to run electric buses is due to them not being able to afford electric infrastructure due to them being relatively small operations. I don't see how moving towards electric buses is a bad thing although I am willing to accept that there would be more environmentally friendly ways of operating buses such as trolleybuses and even trams in some cases where demand is high enough to warrant them. Ultimately the benefits of trolleybuses and trams are they don't require anywhere near the size of a conventional lithium ion battery used in electric buses and instead draw their power from overheard wires which can be powered by renewable energy to generate electricity.
I know it is a slightly bitter pill to swallow but electric buses are still nice to ride. They are new remember - as they get on they could become more interesting. Personally I find far more enjoyment in the sights seen from buses rather than the actual bus itself and generally like riding around on buses for the sake of it, but I'm willing to accept there are plenty of enthusiasts who will think differently. And that's perfectly okay.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Sept 25, 2023 19:18:48 GMT
Personally I think they're great,nice smooth ride without the rattles and vibrations you often get with diesels. The ones I have used haven’t been that great! Perhaps poor road conditions in Newham are to blame. I think the rattling and vibrations really make an EV to be honest. They make it a bit more interesting because as some people have pointed out, ultimately without an engine it's a bit quiet really. |
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Post by VWH1413 on Sept 25, 2023 19:21:53 GMT
Having compared the batches of both types at EW, from a passenger perspective the BDEs are generally nicer (apart from the rear seating layout downstairs) - however I think it was mentioned that drivers seem to prefer the WDEs. In my opinion, again as a passenger, the OMEs are my preferred electric DD so far, but obviously have their reliability problems. Not sure what the general opinion is on electric SDs in London so far, with GB Kites, ieTrams and BZLs yet to enter service, and only a small number of Metrocities and Caetanos alongside the E200EVs. Abellio's eCity Golds certainly add more variety, but I can't see them ordering any more for now, with Wrights due for the E7 and possibly the E6 too. The RV1's hydrogens were always interesting too, it's a shame they couldn't be moved to another route after the 444 was lost. That’s an interesting one. I haven’t rode on the EW BDEs but I imagine I would prefer those far more than the early pre 2022/2023 batches. Not awful but just meh. The electric SDs are definitely more exciting variety wise in in recent years, esp the ones yet to enter service. Quite excited to see those enter service, esp as will be replacing early E200s that are always janky with far few decent ones. Although will be surprised if they can hold an candle to the Euro 3 darts with musical gearboxes. |
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Post by yunus on Sept 25, 2023 19:24:09 GMT
I wish TFL just stayed with Diesel. Good on operators outside in counties and Sullivans who run a few TFL services. Do not wish to repeat myself but seems they have a lot of money to spend and feed false info (my opinion) about HEV/EV being clean. They ofc cannot explain the battery disposal side of things. The reason those operators cannot afford to run electric buses is due to them not being able to afford electric infrastructure due to them being relatively small operations. I don't see how moving towards electric buses is a bad thing although I am willing to accept that there would be more environmentally friendly ways of operating buses such as trolleybuses and even trams in some cases where demand is high enough to warrant them. Ultimately the benefits of trolleybuses and trams are they don't require anywhere near the size of a conventional lithium ion battery used in electric buses and instead draw their power from overheard wires which can be powered by renewable energy to generate electricity.
I know it is a slightly bitter pill to swallow but electric buses are still nice to ride. They are new remember - as they get on they could become more interesting. Personally I find far more enjoyment in the sights seen from buses rather than the actual bus itself and generally like riding around on buses for the sake of it, but I'm willing to accept there are plenty of enthusiasts who will think differently. And that's perfectly okay.
Correct me if I am wrong but the govt are providing grants for operators based in more rural areas to go EV. Btw you will know but operators in counties do not even have a fleet of Hybrids due to again the cost. I recall that Ensign sold theirs due to cost and also mentioned on this article: www.route-one.net/features/1000-hybrids-where-are-they-now/ |
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Post by WH241 on Sept 25, 2023 19:26:53 GMT
The ones I have used haven’t been that great! Perhaps poor road conditions in Newham are to blame. I think the rattling and vibrations really make an EV to be honest. They make it a bit more interesting because as some people have pointed out, ultimately without an engine it's a bit quiet really. To be honest even buses with engines can be quiet. The Stagecoach Smart Hybrids are very smooth when the fans are not going full blast in the summer! |
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