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Post by redbus on Apr 11, 2024 19:56:47 GMT
I am not sure exactly what benefits it will bring. Bus services are specified to minute detail in the tender document, and having competing bus companies can bring a lower price. What perhaps could change is TfLs tolerance when bus companies don't perform as well as they might on a route. It is all very well having financial penalties but when triggered that does not improve the service for passengers. What would a state controlled bus company do differently? What would it bring to the table that would benefit passengers? I am not against it as such, but it is has to have positive benefits for passengers. What happens if it fails to meet performance targets for a route, there may be less desire to penalise it than a private company.
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Post by southlondon413 on Apr 11, 2024 20:05:11 GMT
I am not sure exactly what benefits it will bring. Bus services are specified to minute detail in the tender document, and having competing bus companies can bring a lower price. What perhaps could change is TfLs tolerance when bus companies don't perform as well as they might on a route. It is all very well having financial penalties but when triggered that does not improve the service for passengers. What would a state controlled bus company do differently? What would it bring to the table that would benefit passengers? I am not against it as such, but it is has to have positive benefits for passengers. What happens if it fails to meet performance targets for a route, there may be less desire to penalise it than a private company. Then of course the same issues with the unions and staffing exist with a key difference being that TfL would have to deal with any of those issues themselves. Currently TfL somewhat benefits from being the middle man in union labour disputes with the private bus companies as it can be a third part mediator seeking the best outcome.
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Post by redbus on Apr 11, 2024 20:56:09 GMT
I am not sure exactly what benefits it will bring. Bus services are specified to minute detail in the tender document, and having competing bus companies can bring a lower price. What perhaps could change is TfLs tolerance when bus companies don't perform as well as they might on a route. It is all very well having financial penalties but when triggered that does not improve the service for passengers. What would a state controlled bus company do differently? What would it bring to the table that would benefit passengers? I am not against it as such, but it is has to have positive benefits for passengers. What happens if it fails to meet performance targets for a route, there may be less desire to penalise it than a private company. Then of course the same issues with the unions and staffing exist with a key difference being that TfL would have to deal with any of those issues themselves. Currently TfL somewhat benefits from being the middle man in union labour disputes with the private bus companies as it can be a third part mediator seeking the best outcome. Whilst true, it does depend how this is setup. It could be a company under the auspices of say the GLA so it's arm's length from TfL.
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Post by yunus on Apr 11, 2024 22:30:15 GMT
All being well, I plan to ride some night bus routes tomm on the handful left operating with Diesels.
Thankfully the Night tube will assist me to make some decent connections & progress.
Plan to ride the routes with the N prefix as the 24hr ones can be rode at any time.
Main route I have observed that has some Diesel workings is the N266 which would be the 1st time riding it! Is the route worth riding and anyway to tell what time the Diesel will come on from which end? Or is it just chancing?
If the N266 fails, plan is riding the N83 again which is a decent route imo.
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 11, 2024 22:54:07 GMT
All being well, I plan to ride some night bus routes tomm on the handful left operating with Diesels. Thankfully the Night tube will assist me to make some decent connections & progress. Plan to ride the routes with the N prefix as the 24hr ones can be rode at any time. Main route I have observed that has some Diesel workings is the N266 which would be the 1st time riding it! Is the route worth riding and anyway to tell what time the Diesel will come on from which end? Or is it just chancing? If the N266 fails, plan is riding the N83 again which is a decent route imo. My advice to you if you are planning to do the N266 is to start at Brent Cross, preferably before 1am. Timings between this route and the 189N mean a hefty 20-25 minute gap if you change there, and Brent Cross bus station is not the most pleasant place at night. It is completely desolate and an addict's dream spot to beg as there's no chance to feasibly walk to the next stop. During the day the place is bustling, at night Brent Cross is very dystopian.
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Post by yunus on Apr 11, 2024 23:07:02 GMT
All being well, I plan to ride some night bus routes tomm on the handful left operating with Diesels. Thankfully the Night tube will assist me to make some decent connections & progress. Plan to ride the routes with the N prefix as the 24hr ones can be rode at any time. Main route I have observed that has some Diesel workings is the N266 which would be the 1st time riding it! Is the route worth riding and anyway to tell what time the Diesel will come on from which end? Or is it just chancing? If the N266 fails, plan is riding the N83 again which is a decent route imo. My advice to you if you are planning to do the N266 is to start at Brent Cross, preferably before 1am. Timings between this route and the 189N mean a hefty 20-25 minute gap if you change there, and Brent Cross bus station is not the most pleasant place at night. It is completely desolate and an addict's dream spot to beg as there's no chance to feasibly walk to the next stop. During the day the place is bustling, at night Brent Cross is very dystopian. Thanks for the thumbs up, my plan is to take the night tube (Piccadilly Line) to Hammersmith later on if there happens to be a ADE on the N266 if not I could ride an N33 or N72! On a personal note, I have many experiences with night buses back in the good old days when we would fly up and down without messing around regulating etc haha
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 11, 2024 23:55:34 GMT
My advice to you if you are planning to do the N266 is to start at Brent Cross, preferably before 1am. Timings between this route and the 189N mean a hefty 20-25 minute gap if you change there, and Brent Cross bus station is not the most pleasant place at night. It is completely desolate and an addict's dream spot to beg as there's no chance to feasibly walk to the next stop. During the day the place is bustling, at night Brent Cross is very dystopian. Thanks for the thumbs up, my plan is to take the night tube (Piccadilly Line) to Hammersmith later on if there happens to be a ADE on the N266 if not I could ride an N33 or N72! On a personal note, I have many experiences with night buses back in the good old days when we would fly up and down without messing around regulating etc haha Outside of Covid, I don't believe I have ever been on a night bus that was held for regulation. Schedules are fairly tight and if you plan to do this on a weekend, even more so with generally more punters eating up timings with dwell times. You should be fine.
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Post by matthieu1221 on Apr 12, 2024 2:44:38 GMT
It's so people can board at the big Tesco at Three Mills Island and stay on the bus for the return journey. The big Tesco at Three Mills is where the 488 starts and finishes, so shoppers don't need to stay aboard.
The ability to stay aboard goes back to the introduction of the 488 in 2008 when it terminated at Twelvetrees Crescent and Tesco users did need to stay aboard to get home. Its predecessor, the S2, travelled in a big loop and there was no issue.
In 2010 the 488's terminus was cut back two stops to Tesco, and the concession is now only useful for passengers boarding before the terminus, north of the A11, wishing to stay on board until (for example) Bromley-by-Bow station.
I'd be interested to see how this would work with RPI checks for instance as I was under the impression that the system reset at each end, wiping out records of taps of the previous journey? Is there a special arrangement for these routes on the technical side?
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Post by Catford94 on Apr 13, 2024 10:01:41 GMT
The big Tesco at Three Mills is where the 488 starts and finishes, so shoppers don't need to stay aboard.
The ability to stay aboard goes back to the introduction of the 488 in 2008 when it terminated at Twelvetrees Crescent and Tesco users did need to stay aboard to get home. Its predecessor, the S2, travelled in a big loop and there was no issue.
In 2010 the 488's terminus was cut back two stops to Tesco, and the concession is now only useful for passengers boarding before the terminus, north of the A11, wishing to stay on board until (for example) Bromley-by-Bow station.
I'd be interested to see how this would work with RPI checks for instance as I was under the impression that the system reset at each end, wiping out records of taps of the previous journey? Is there a special arrangement for these routes on the technical side?
I'm not sure that the ticket machine is involved when it comes to RPI checks - I haven't any personal involvement with it, but would expect that the gadget the RPI's carry can show when and where the card was last tapped in. That's what shows up on the journey history online if you have an Oyster card (so it's not wiped off the central system at the end of each journey) - I don't know if it records (and lets RPI see) things like bus fleet number and / or journey number as well.
There are a few routes with a loop terminus and a 'hesitation point' where the bus 'officially' changes from the journey from A to B in to the journey from B to A but passengers can and do travel on journeys that cross the 'terminus' point.
The first one that comes to mind is route B15, where there's a loop round the Horn Park Estate, west of Eltham, but the 'terminus' is the first stop on the estate (although the second stop on the loop), so anyone travelling from the Bexleyheath direction to a stop further round the estate will technically be travelling on two 'journeys' on a single 'tap' but that's how loop terminus arrangements work.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 13, 2024 10:36:05 GMT
I'd be interested to see how this would work with RPI checks for instance as I was under the impression that the system reset at each end, wiping out records of taps of the previous journey? Is there a special arrangement for these routes on the technical side?
I'm not sure that the ticket machine is involved when it comes to RPI checks - I haven't any personal involvement with it, but would expect that the gadget the RPI's carry can show when and where the card was last tapped in. That's what shows up on the journey history online if you have an Oyster card (so it's not wiped off the central system at the end of each journey) - I don't know if it records (and lets RPI see) things like bus fleet number and / or journey number as well.
There are a few routes with a loop terminus and a 'hesitation point' where the bus 'officially' changes from the journey from A to B in to the journey from B to A but passengers can and do travel on journeys that cross the 'terminus' point.
The first one that comes to mind is route B15, where there's a loop round the Horn Park Estate, west of Eltham, but the 'terminus' is the first stop on the estate (although the second stop on the loop), so anyone travelling from the Bexleyheath direction to a stop further round the estate will technically be travelling on two 'journeys' on a single 'tap' but that's how loop terminus arrangements work.
I don't believe that's how all loops work, the 62 as a loop around what is now becoming Weavers Quarter but passengers cannot stay on the loop. You can see this on all the spider maps where the 62 has a dead end on them, but the route itself doesn't.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 13, 2024 11:14:54 GMT
I'm not sure that the ticket machine is involved when it comes to RPI checks - I haven't any personal involvement with it, but would expect that the gadget the RPI's carry can show when and where the card was last tapped in. That's what shows up on the journey history online if you have an Oyster card (so it's not wiped off the central system at the end of each journey) - I don't know if it records (and lets RPI see) things like bus fleet number and / or journey number as well.
There are a few routes with a loop terminus and a 'hesitation point' where the bus 'officially' changes from the journey from A to B in to the journey from B to A but passengers can and do travel on journeys that cross the 'terminus' point.
The first one that comes to mind is route B15, where there's a loop round the Horn Park Estate, west of Eltham, but the 'terminus' is the first stop on the estate (although the second stop on the loop), so anyone travelling from the Bexleyheath direction to a stop further round the estate will technically be travelling on two 'journeys' on a single 'tap' but that's how loop terminus arrangements work.
I don't believe that's how all loops work, the 62 as a loop around what is now becoming Weavers Quarter but passengers cannot stay on the loop. You can see this on all the spider maps where the 62 has a dead end on them, but the route itself doesn't. Same as the P5 and in fact, the last 366 journey I did was the same at Falmouth Gardens
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2024 11:19:33 GMT
I'd be interested to see how this would work with RPI checks for instance as I was under the impression that the system reset at each end, wiping out records of taps of the previous journey? Is there a special arrangement for these routes on the technical side? I'm not sure that the ticket machine is involved when it comes to RPI checks - I haven't any personal involvement with it, but would expect that the gadget the RPI's carry can show when and where the card was last tapped in. That's what shows up on the journey history online if you have an Oyster card (so it's not wiped off the central system at the end of each journey) - I don't know if it records (and lets RPI see) things like bus fleet number and / or journey number as well.
There are a few routes with a loop terminus and a 'hesitation point' where the bus 'officially' changes from the journey from A to B in to the journey from B to A but passengers can and do travel on journeys that cross the 'terminus' point.
The first one that comes to mind is route B15, where there's a loop round the Horn Park Estate, west of Eltham, but the 'terminus' is the first stop on the estate (although the second stop on the loop), so anyone travelling from the Bexleyheath direction to a stop further round the estate will technically be travelling on two 'journeys' on a single 'tap' but that's how loop terminus arrangements work.
On the trams, you don't actually have to tap in to come up as valid. As long as your card is valid and has sufficient funds it shows up as valid.
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Post by Catford94 on Apr 13, 2024 11:27:01 GMT
I don't believe that's how all loops work, the 62 as a loop around what is now becoming Weavers Quarter but passengers cannot stay on the loop. You can see this on all the spider maps where the 62 has a dead end on them, but the route itself doesn't.
Is that what is / used to be Gascoine Estate? If so, yes, that isn't operated as a loop terminus, it's more a terminus where bus follows a one way system (I think in this case it's so bus can head north again, rather than a formal 'one way system' for all traffic - fairly sure it's been like that since the 70s at least.
Operationally, the snag with a true loop terminus with a 'hesitation point' (TFL specify bus not to be there more than 2 minutes rather than have recovery time) is that if the timetable is too tight, there will be many occasions when buses end up arriving at that point late so have no chance of leaving on time. The alternative approach is to put 'padding' in the running time leading up to the hesitation point, so there will be many occasions where the bus sits and waits more than 2 minutes, which annoys passengers who want to travel further round the loop.
In terms of getting close to where passengers want to be, loop terminus arrangements are good, and in some cases are the only solution where there isn't anywhere that can be used as a conventional terminus / stand. But operationally they can be difficult, and dealing with them in a way that ticket machines, real time and journey planners can all cope with passenger journeys that cross the notional 'terminus' - and with journeys where the bus starts or end on the loop - can be a pain.
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Post by ronnie on Apr 13, 2024 11:29:01 GMT
I'm not sure that the ticket machine is involved when it comes to RPI checks - I haven't any personal involvement with it, but would expect that the gadget the RPI's carry can show when and where the card was last tapped in. That's what shows up on the journey history online if you have an Oyster card (so it's not wiped off the central system at the end of each journey) - I don't know if it records (and lets RPI see) things like bus fleet number and / or journey number as well.
There are a few routes with a loop terminus and a 'hesitation point' where the bus 'officially' changes from the journey from A to B in to the journey from B to A but passengers can and do travel on journeys that cross the 'terminus' point.
The first one that comes to mind is route B15, where there's a loop round the Horn Park Estate, west of Eltham, but the 'terminus' is the first stop on the estate (although the second stop on the loop), so anyone travelling from the Bexleyheath direction to a stop further round the estate will technically be travelling on two 'journeys' on a single 'tap' but that's how loop terminus arrangements work.
I don't believe that's how all loops work, the 62 as a loop around what is now becoming Weavers Quarter but passengers cannot stay on the loop. You can see this on all the spider maps where the 62 has a dead end on them, but the route itself doesn't. I think there are 2 different things. There are some routes (e.g. 62 as you mentioned; also the 11, R1, 174, 175, 193, 247 and I am sure there are lots more!) which terminate in a one-way loop hence you need to get off. In contrast there are some routes with only a hesitation point where the destination changes and you can stay on (e.g.: 138, 499, R5, R8, R10, B12, B13, B15 and a fair number more!). The 488 seems to be an exception to the former
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Post by mkay315 on Apr 13, 2024 11:33:24 GMT
Hi folks
So something really came to my head about some particular years and how major changes occurred in that year.
So let's start with 1992, I think that year was a big change involving a lot of Central London buses where a lot of diversions and splits occurred.
1993 was the Newham changes,
1994 was when the privatisation occurred.
1999 now this one and 2003 (I'll come to that in a bit) was a very big one. It involved the Jubilee line extension, the DLR extension. The low floor revolution was really taking it's foothold from this point
2000 the tramlink and Croydon bus changes
2003 was the year the congestion charge was introduced along with some new routes, 30th August 2003 being a famous date for a lot of bus changes on that day. Some in South London, others in East London.
2005 being the last year that step entrance buses were allowed to roam the streets of London
2010 being the last year that the overlapping service was the norm
2011 being the year that the roundels came back onto the London buses and bendy buses being removed from the London streets
2014 being the year of the bus and the time being displayed on the buses.
2019 the Central London bus changes again!!
That's all I can think of from the top of my head
If there's anymore please feel free to add some.
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