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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 21, 2019 23:33:52 GMT
Looking at the 12 measures, it is missing a 'Whole journey experience' measure ... they seem to have picked pretty safe measures, with the exception of maybe the 'value for money' one. Note average bus speed is down ... 😂🤣😂 Is it slower than the average cycling speed i wonder! Much slower, in fact it is slower than an average snails pace.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 21, 2019 23:46:00 GMT
Out of interest, did anyone attend the 159 “last day” ? Was it chaotic as it looked? I attended, it was chaotic, it was mental.
It really wasn't that bad, there was a good atmosphere, the bus was late, it was probably one of the better last days. The road space and forecourt of the garage had enough area to accommodate the masses.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 21, 2019 23:51:25 GMT
Out of interest, did anyone attend the 159 “last day” ? Was it chaotic as it looked? Yes and I thought it was very enjoyable and I didn't find it chaotic at all. Many ordinary members of the public who wouldn't normally have any interest in buses were involved and there was something of a carnival atmosphere albeit tinged with sadness. I seem to recall police closing the road outside BN for a while as crowds grew, there were some wheelchair users who had come to celebrate the demise of the Routemaster which caused a bit of friction, apparently they had arrived by taxi despite numerous accessible buses passing BN which was totally at odds with what they were supposed to be celebrating. The feeling was that they had only attended to incite trouble, whether they were actually genuine wheelchair users is anybody's guess. Anyway as far as I'm aware the whole event passed off without any serious problems? I was a bit peed off at the wheelchair users lobby, bunch of hypocrites that didn't need to be there and as usual with the pathetic BBC they gave them air time. At least let the bus die in peace, talk about kicking a man when he is down!
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 22, 2019 0:02:51 GMT
Agreed although a couple of points: This sort of thing is not restricted to the Isle of Dogs - Effra Road sees this almost daily and has had fatal accidents as a result of speeding before & after speed cameras & a 20mph limit were introduced which shows how pointless these borough wide schemes are whilst cameras only move the problem from one place to another. The blame should not be laid at 20mph limits and speed cameras. The blame must be laid at the people who deliberately and recklessly drive at speeds well in excess of the posted limit. Let's be clear, we are not talking about people doing 30mph on a road that previously had that limit. And let us not use the term accident - they are collisions. Driving at well in excess of the speed limit is not an accident, it is a deliberate and premeditated act. Disagree, its recklessness not speed. Define speed? After all driving at 20 is still classed as going at speed. I blame 20mph zones being pathetically over used by corrupt local councils for Londons traffic and pollution problems. The same way they were brainwashing people 20+ years ago to go and buy a "deezul" I always saw it as pointless unless you did around 30000 miles a year.
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Post by SILENCED on Mar 22, 2019 1:08:44 GMT
People are far more willing to accept waiting at a bus stop, rather than having their journeys artificially delayed so companies can inflate their bonus payments. Let's be honest, if it was not for the bonus payments, you would not be regulating the buses. Waiting at the bus stop is an accepted part of the bus users experience, a deterimentally delayed journey is not ... especially when that delay causes you to miss connections .... with hopper fares many rely on a second journey now. Sorry capital, I normally give your posts the greatest respect, but this sounds like someone has swallowed the corporate Bible and repeating it verse for verse. Is there any correlation that passenger numbers started to drop off about the time this procedure become commonplace? If it is, maybe the companies operating practice are destroying London Buses, the very market they make money from ... Not the Mayor, but then it is his tender regime that drives this .... So not completely absolved of blame. To counter your waiting argument, is the gap between the late bus and the bus in front not growing, causing those passengers to wait excessively. Would it not be better to allow the bus behind to catch up, so they can work in tandem to close the gap on the bus in front? The current system just seem to be the worse of both worlds for those waiting and on the bus ... as the passengers waiting at the stops beyond the regulation have to wait the extra 3 minutes ... there is absolutely no benefit to passengers with the current operating practices. You are basically disadvantaging the many passengers for the benefit of the odd two or three, does that really make sound sense to you? At end of day all the operating companies care about is boosting revenue, even if it is to the detriment of customers. I would like to see bonuses/fines introduced for customer satisfaction results ... that way they may take some interest in what the customer actually wants. Hmmm so you think buses have been "detrimentally delayed" since around the time people have been deserting buses. Wrong on this account, it has been happening since ibus came out around 2008 and just before. In part these measures that have created a even and reliable service what attracted passenger growth. It isn't always about bonus payments, it can also be the case of fines of not making the minimum criteria. With measures being introduced not to allow speeding etc. how would you then make the bus behind catch up as you say, because I cannot see it happening.
If you can not see the bus catching the one in front then surely you have just countered the argument for regulating it OK ibus has been around since 2008, but it is only been the the past 5 or so years that regulating service has been as common as it was, once it was rare ... today I had one regulated and the other was approaching the dead of night. Having a service being regulated is not the exception it used to be ... it is becoming the norm ... if you do 4 journies, the chances are one will be regulated. By regulating a single bus for 3 minutes means the bus behind catches it up, meaning it gets regulated and so on. Come on is this really the most efficient method of operating a bus service from the passengers perspective!
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Post by 6HP502C on Mar 22, 2019 9:41:43 GMT
I have the impression that the 227 often is very fast at night. What kind of time would you guys say that is? preferably earlier It probably is fast as you don't have traffic about at night. It should be quite fast from 8 PM onwards. Perhaps we have different perceptions of what fast is. Some may consider cruising at 25mph unhindered by traffic as fast which may be plausible if the average speed is around 11mph. I think fast is this sort of thing, where the driver is holding the pedal to the metal, going as fast as the bus/road allows within acceptable bounds of comfort but perhaps not safety or legality. However this is not very common these days!
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Post by LVF_Admin on Mar 22, 2019 10:45:08 GMT
Just wondering if anyone received this months TLB today? always like to double check as my post can be a bit funny and very rare for the it to arrive late. Still havent got mine yet within the CR4....' post code, presumably tomorrow. Received yesterday
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Post by redbus on Mar 22, 2019 12:23:49 GMT
Would removing the readers do anything? People could still quite easily evade it!? Am I missing something here? I'm assuming there will be some level of publicity campaign coupled with revenue hit squads to enforce the new rules. At the end of the day I am guessing drivers will become responsible for revenue rule enforcement on NB4Ls as they are on other routes. Therefore if people dodge then it will be a case of the bus not moving until people touch in. They effectively become like any other double decker but with two exit doors and one entry door. Of course there will still be the issue of buggy wielding people and wheelchair users being entitled to use the centre doors. It will be interesting to see how TfL effect the changeover - a "big bang" change or by route or by area / corridor. I suspect it will be the latter thus allowing a phased changeover by area allowing readers to be removed in short order garage by garage as well as targeted local advertising and revenue checks. Zone 1 will be the most confusing area for a period of time if a phased approach is allowed as you could single door / multi door boarding NB4L vehicles running on the same roads. There's running a bus service and there's politics. Sure it was a political decision to introduce the NB4L, and for that matter the bendy bus before it and the removal of the bendy bus. The idea of N4BL was to mimic the Routemaster with open boarding and a conductor. The conductor if used to collect fares could have ensured compliance and reduce fare dodging. Politics meant having card readers and a Customer Services Assistant (only on routes with open boarding). Since their introduction politics has meant the removal of the CSA. Given all of this why is anyone surprised that there is a greater level of fare evasion on NB4L than other buses. I believe there is less fare evasion than there was on bendy buses and that should be a pleasant surprise in itself. So for me if you want to introduce NB4L you either accept some fare evasion or you put on a conductor or have some other means of enforcement (more enforcement officers as I have said before). What you don't do is change the politics mid-way and collectively punish all the law abiding fare paying passengers by forcing them to board at the front. Who is the bus service being run for, the law abiding passenger or TfL?
As I have said before some areas and routes will be more prone to fare evasion, so why are NB4Ls being put on routes through those areas? A quick simple win would be to swap them to other routes.
One question I'd like to know is what is the level of fare evasion on a normal bus route, and route by route on NB4L. I would also like to know how this figures are measured. If NB4L is made front entry only, it will be interesting to see what the level of fare evasion will be afterwards.
There will definitely be longer boarding times at some stops, at certain times of the day. Berlin is a very different city to London and I don't think it is fair a comparison to use here, sorry sid . I accept there aren't exactly lots of comparison cities you can use, but Berlin is too different to make a proper comparison. As for the number of extra buses as a result of this I will go for either 0, or maybe for some routes -1 or -2! I think many routes won't be impacted significantly in terms of overall running because simply because the extra boarding time will often be accommodated in the already padded schedule. If schedules were tighter it would be a different matter. The -1 or -2 may result from routes which will need a new schedule, on a reduced frequency with a PVR saving of 1 or 2!!!!
If this does happen it will be on a route or area basis and there will be additional enforcement officers. TfL simply don't have enough enforcement officers (in my opinion) to provide the necessary level of enforcement and convert all NB4L routes to front boarding at the same time. TfL I suspect will start on those NB4L routes they think suffer the worst fare evasion.
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Post by sid on Mar 22, 2019 12:35:40 GMT
I'm assuming there will be some level of publicity campaign coupled with revenue hit squads to enforce the new rules. At the end of the day I am guessing drivers will become responsible for revenue rule enforcement on NB4Ls as they are on other routes. Therefore if people dodge then it will be a case of the bus not moving until people touch in. They effectively become like any other double decker but with two exit doors and one entry door. Of course there will still be the issue of buggy wielding people and wheelchair users being entitled to use the centre doors. It will be interesting to see how TfL effect the changeover - a "big bang" change or by route or by area / corridor. I suspect it will be the latter thus allowing a phased changeover by area allowing readers to be removed in short order garage by garage as well as targeted local advertising and revenue checks. Zone 1 will be the most confusing area for a period of time if a phased approach is allowed as you could single door / multi door boarding NB4L vehicles running on the same roads. There's running a bus service and there's politics. Sure it was a political decision to introduce the NB4L, and for that matter the bendy bus before it and the removal of the bendy bus. The idea of N4BL was to mimic the Routemaster with open boarding and a conductor. The conductor if used to collect fares could have ensured compliance and reduce fare dodging. Politics meant having card readers and a Customer Services Assistant (only on routes with open boarding). Since their introduction politics has meant the removal of the CSA. Given all of this why is anyone surprised that there is a greater level of fare evasion on NB4L than other buses. I believe there is less fare evasion than there was on bendy buses and that should be a pleasant surprise in itself. So for me if you want to introduce NB4L you either accept some fare evasion or you put on a conductor or have some other means of enforcement (more enforcement officers as I have said before). What you don't do is change the politics mid-way and collectively punish all the law abiding fare paying passengers by forcing them to board at the front. Who is the bus service being run for, the law abiding passenger or TfL?
As I have said before some areas and routes will be more prone to fare evasion, so why are NB4Ls being put on routes through those areas? A quick simple win would be to swap them to other routes.
One question I'd like to know is what is the level of fare evasion on a normal bus route, and route by route on NB4L. I would also like to know how this figures are measured. If NB4L is made front entry only, it will be interesting to see what the level of fare evasion will be afterwards.
There will definitely be longer boarding times at some stops, at certain times of the day. Berlin is a very different city to London and I don't think it is fair a comparison to use here, sorry sid . I accept there aren't exactly lots of comparison cities you can use, but Berlin is too different to make a proper comparison. As for the number of extra buses as a result of this I will go for either 0, or maybe for some routes -1 or -2! I think many routes won't be impacted significantly in terms of overall running because simply because the extra boarding time will often be accommodated in the already padded schedule. If schedules were tighter it would be a different matter. The -1 or -2 may result from routes which will need a new schedule, on a reduced frequency with a PVR saving of 1 or 2!!!!
If this does happen it will be on a route or area basis and there will be additional enforcement officers. TfL simply don't have enough enforcement officers (in my opinion) to provide the necessary level of enforcement and convert all NB4L routes to front boarding at the same time. TfL I suspect will start on those NB4L routes they think suffer the worst fare evasion.
What are the routes with the worst levels of fare evasion? Nobody can know because there is no record of how many people travel without paying. We'll have to wait and see about longer journey times but I don't envisage any significant increase, most LT routes see the odd dual doored non open boarding bus and they seem to have no particular problem keeping to time. LT's probably won't be as busy as they are now, you won't get people ignoring standard buses and waiting especially for an LT for a free ride anymore. I would imagine it will have to be done one route at a time with TfL staff enforcing the new rules initially although a large no entry sign on the centre and rear doors does rather get the message across. So what do TfL do, allow fare evasion to continue unabated or do something about it? Installing ticket barriers at railway stations has seen big increases in revenue just as removing open boarding on buses in Berlin has and whether it's a different city to London or not is somewhat irrelevant.
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Post by redbus on Mar 22, 2019 12:37:50 GMT
I am not saying law doesn't apply, or perhaps there are not enough people to watch cctvs and fine those drivers who do break the law...but just have a feeling in many cases they do turn blind eye on buses/cabs/police cars when it comes to red light or box junction infraction. Because the amount of infractions just on one road I sit for 5 minutes per hour at least 4 bus drivers would be out of job for the things they do or 'happen' due to nature of bad congestion and so on. Driving offences are not always black and white and sometimes discretion will be used to determine what action to take. It is possible that in such cases where there is discretion that certain groups such as bus drivers might be more favourably looked upon, I don't know. I would not expect a blind eye to be turned though.
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Post by met120 on Mar 22, 2019 17:52:37 GMT
But does nothing to improve the passenger experience ... you do sometimes wonder if public transport is operated for the benefit of the general public. Well if people were not to complain I have waited x amount of time for a bus this would never happen. Be careful what you wish for. End of the day, those on the bus are suffering, while those that may have turned up at the stop and missed it wouldn't have to wait longer as the service would be evened out. If you get the case where the driver does not wait and near the one in front, you then get an extended gap behind and likely causes for bunching as the one behind picks up loads of passengers, gets later then the one behind that catches it up.
I can understand this when it comes to low frequency routes but they need to find a balance on high frequency routes especially those ones which are advertised as anywhere between 4-8 or 5-10 minutes.
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Post by Londonbuses54 on Mar 22, 2019 23:03:30 GMT
Would you guys say the 20 is a safe route? Just wondering beachside I might get it tomorrow if the E400CITY come out
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Mar 22, 2019 23:08:09 GMT
Would you guys say the 20 is a safe route? Just wondering beachside I might get it tomorrow if the E400CITY come out It's about as safe as all other routes in London are, you can't predict crime. It can happen anywhere at any time.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 22, 2019 23:30:19 GMT
Would you guys say the 20 is a safe route? Just wondering beachside I might get it tomorrow if the E400CITY come out Yes I would say it's safe. It's relatively lightly used outside of school times and even the schools it serves are well behaved (all the private ones in Woodford). It's positively rural out through Buckhurst Hill to Loughton. The only potentially "rough" end is the large Debden estate but even then it's not exactly the depths of depravity. I discount Walthamstow and Leyton simply because I live in the area and I've not personally encountered trouble in decades (I'll probably get beaten up tomorrow having said that ). I had to use it a fair bit a few months ago and it seemed that the drivers knew a lot of the passengers and many of those, at least at off peaks, were older people. Nowt to worry about from them.
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Post by ronnie on Mar 23, 2019 0:43:26 GMT
Would you guys say the 20 is a safe route? Just wondering beachside I might get it tomorrow if the E400CITY come out Yes I would say it's safe. It's relatively lightly used outside of school times and even the schools it serves are well behaved (all the private ones in Woodford). It's positively rural out through Buckhurst Hill to Loughton. The only potentially "rough" end is the large Debden estate but even then it's not exactly the depths of depravity. I discount Walthamstow and Leyton simply because I live in the area and I've not personally encountered trouble in decades (I'll probably get beaten up tomorrow having said that ). I had to use it a fair bit a few months ago and it seemed that the drivers knew a lot of the passengers and many of those, at least at off peaks, were older people. Nowt to worry about from them. The question got me thinking - what are potentially “unsafe” routes (esp late in the evening once it’s dark)? I have done a bunch of end to ends over the past few months and while there hasn’t been anything unpleasant, maybe discretion is better nowadays ....
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