First disappearing?

[towerman]

At the turn of the year First operated a few routes in the Northampton area,the 2/3/4/4A/10/12/28 & 30.Now Stagecoach have taken over the 10 & 12 and in the middle of September will take over the 2.Seems it won't be long till First have disappeared from the area altogether.Is the same thing happening in other First strongholds?

[snoggle]

Aug 23, 2013 15:24:55 GMT towerman said:

At the turn of the year First operated a few routes in the Northampton area,the 2/3/4/4A/10/12/28 & 30.Now Stagecoach have taken over the 10 & 12 and in the middle of September will take over the 2.Seems it won't be long till First have disappeared from the area altogether.Is the same thing happening in other First strongholds?

First have basically destroyed what was once a solid and profitable municipal operation in Northampton and yes they are closing down the operation. Stagecoach and UNO buses have picked up the remaining network. There have been articles in Buses Magazine and on the Omnibuses blog setting out the crash errors and mistakes that were taken locally and imposed from Aberdeen. This is what happens when you try to screw every last ounce of money out of an operation but fail to realise that you also have to spend some money on fleet investment. I understand the Trade Unions didn't help at Northampton either. I'd argue that good core businesses at Aberdeen and Leicester have also been laid waste by First Group's approach. It's harder to know about PTE areas as all of them have faced severe turmoil in adjusting to the commercial world. The Moir Lockhead era at First Group has an awful lot to answer for.

As for the rest of First well some bits have been shut (North Devon), some sold (Wigan) and others hacked back badly (Scotland East). It seems a further "hacking to death" is going on in Glasgow with the local MD "standing down" and an earlier predecessor, considered to be innovative, also left First Glasgow. There are some different things being tried out in Cornwall, Southampton and South Yorkshire and bits of Greater Manchester. It remains to be seen how successful these initiatives will be. For the sake of First and those who rely on their services they have to work as the alternative would be even more cuts.

Some people may not like Sir Brian Souter but Stagecoach do, generally, seem to have a clue about how to make money out of buses but also to invest in their fleets and in growing their markets over time. First really, really have decades of catching up to do to get within spitting distance of bits of Stagecoach, Transdev and Go Ahead. Note I said "bits" - there are ropey, poor performing worn out ops in every group.

[ServerKing]

First have strengthened their operations in Manchester by acquiring local independents Finglands. Buses mag were talking as if First have turned the corner financially. Their rail services leave more to be desired though... they are not sure how they will do with the next lot of franchises coming up...

Sent from my GT-I8190N using proboards

[snoggle]

Aug 28, 2013 15:39:47 GMT ServerKing said:

First have strengthened their operations in Manchester by acquiring local independents Finglands. Buses mag were talking as if First have turned the corner financially. Their rail services leave more to be desired though... they are not sure how they will do with the next lot of franchises coming up...

I wonder what First are actually going to do with the Finglands "purchase". They've effectively bought the route registrations and goodwill but no vehicles. If they wanted to expand into South Manchester they could simply have registered some new routes and gone into battle. Sounds to me like the local management have been "let off the leash" a little bit and this is their idea to grow their business. I think they'd do better to just run their existing network really, really well and then bolster it steadily if they're get "bums on seats".

The rail side of things is difficult. No public statements about an extension to Great Western and they're really running out of time. It is also a really difficult franchise for the next few years as there is so much work going on. First Trans Pennine may well vanish in a few years depending on what happens with Northern (and the local PTEs) and First Capital Connect is rolled in with mega Southern. My concern is that First will be so desparate to keep hold of the huge cashflows to keep their share price up that they will overbid for all of these franchises. That could spell ruin for them and ruin for the farepayers as fares will soar to try to pay the huge premuims.

[ServerKing]

Aug 28, 2013 19:16:08 GMT snoggle said:

Aug 28, 2013 15:39:47 GMT ServerKing said:

First have strengthened their operations in Manchester by acquiring local independents Finglands. Buses mag were talking as if First have turned the corner financially. Their rail services leave more to be desired though... they are not sure how they will do with the next lot of franchises coming up...

I wonder what First are actually going to do with the Finglands "purchase". They've effectively bought the route registrations and goodwill but no vehicles. If they wanted to expand into South Manchester they could simply have registered some new routes and gone into battle. Sounds to me like the local management have been "let off the leash" a little bit and this is their idea to grow their business. I think they'd do better to just run their existing network really, really well and then bolster it steadily if they're get "bums on seats".

The rail side of things is difficult. No public statements about an extension to Great Western and they're really running out of time. It is also a really difficult franchise for the next few years as there is so much work going on. First Trans Pennine may well vanish in a few years depending on what happens with Northern (and the local PTEs) and First Capital Connect is rolled in with mega Southern. My concern is that First will be so desparate to keep hold of the huge cashflows to keep their share price up that they will overbid for all of these franchises. That could spell ruin for them and ruin for the farepayers as fares will soar to try to pay the huge premuims.

I fix some of the Ticketing equipment at First Capital Connect, and at times you can cut the atmosphere with a Stanley knife.... it's almost like they know the franchise won't be renewed, even though there's a couple of years left on this one. I think the whole West Coast bid thing unsettled the firm and knocked it for six... I think they are putting on a brave face. It was a shame to see them leave London, but their replacements have done so well, we can't notice they've gone

As for the First Capital Connect / Southern work, I can see Southern taking over. I think they are trying to reduce the number of franchises in general, they want to move the Class 319's up North for the newly electrified lines around Manchester and Liverpool, and perhaps use some of the 313's / 315s in Wales once the wires are up there.

I too am skeptical about the Finglands purchase, it doesn't represent a 'turn-around' financially, it's a step of sorts, but I've seen how they gave up on areas like Northampton which they had only recently gotten into.

[snoggle]

Aug 29, 2013 8:00:38 GMT ServerKing said:

I fix some of the Ticketing equipment at First Capital Connect, and at times you can cut the atmosphere with a Stanley knife.... it's almost like they know the franchise won't be renewed, even though there's a couple of years left on this one. I think the whole West Coast bid thing unsettled the firm and knocked it for six... I think they are putting on a brave face. It was a shame to see them leave London, but their replacements have done so well, we can't notice they've gone

As for the First Capital Connect / Southern work, I can see Southern taking over. I think they are trying to reduce the number of franchises in general, they want to move the Class 319's up North for the newly electrified lines around Manchester and Liverpool, and perhaps use some of the 313's / 315s in Wales once the wires are up there.

I too am skeptical about the Finglands purchase, it doesn't represent a 'turn-around' financially, it's a step of sorts, but I've seen how they gave up on areas like Northampton which they had only recently gotten into.

The West Coast franchise issue has knocked the whole industry sideways but I can see that First companies will be hardest hit in terms of morale. Unfortunately FCC has had more than its fair share of troubles over the years with the Thameslink drivers dispute, several high profile incidents which were mishandled and First keep changing the MD. I see that Abellio, First, Stagecoach, GoVia and MTR Group are shortlisted to bid - that's some tough competition and I've no idea who has deep enough pockets to win although the next franchise is a management contract rather than normal franchise so might change things a bit. While I can see why the DfT have combined the franchises to simplify operation on the Brighton Main line it is still a massive operation to run and will be very complex when all of Thameslink is linked up.

[towerman]

Yeah,in Northampton First used to have quite adequate Wright single deckers(02reg)then about a year ago they all disappeared and were replaced by older examples(R,S,T & V regs)can't see the thinking behind that.

[towerman]

First withdrew from Northampton from Sunday 15th September.Routes 4,4A,28 & 30 withdrawn.To compensate Stagecoach have withdrawn route 15 to Grange Park and rerouted it via the withdrawn 4/4A to Long Acre,route 7 extended from bus station to Grange Park & route 10 extended from bus station to Shelfeley to replace the withdrawn 28.Stagecoach have also taken over route 3.

[Deleted]

First did well competing against western greyhound in Cornwall after purchasing Trurorian.

I am impressed with Arriva & Stagecoach , and would like to see ratp dev and transdev expand nationally .

I cant see first surviving in the long run

[towerman]

I'm not unhappy to see First suffering,back in the early 90s through one of their acquired companies(Capital Citybus)they jumped in and took over routes in the Walthamstow area of London when there was a industrial dispute at the local garage over wage cuts.This caused the closure of said garage.