R5 / R10

[Mokujin]

Oct 29, 2013 20:09:55 GMT snoggle said:

Oct 28, 2013 14:38:38 GMT westhamgeezer said:

Quite Complex this, I'm sure that it could be made more simple somehow, just haven't worked it out yet! Incidentally, is there any reason why on the on-line TFL map of route R5/R10, it only shows them going as far as Green St. Green??

Probably the simpler thing to do is to break the loop and create two separate out and back services. You could do something like Orpington - Cudham - Halstead as one service. The other could be Orpington - Pratts Bottom - Halstead. I've no idea at all how much or how little traffic there is around the current loop service which would be a crucial factor in deciding if you did break the loop.

The other thing that might be possible given the short distance involved is to run the R3 on from Chelsfield and run down to Halstead up to, say, Green St Green or Orpington Hospital via either side of the loop. The link into Orpington could be made by changing buses at GSG or simply by travelling via Chelsfield. The key to that sort of change would be running time and if it required more buses than now. Restructuring the loop services might give options, as previously suggested, to link to other hourly routes like the R6, R7 or R8.

I suspect the current R5/10 is the simplest and cheapest way of providing a service to that part of the rural London / Kent fringe. Let's be honest - a broadly hourly service round the loop is pretty good for fairly marginal territory. There are other routes, like the W10 or 399, which have far fewer journeys despite there being reasonable levels of housing on both routes. The only compensation is Crews Hill and Hadley Wood do have a reasonable train service instead.

The 464 to Tatsfield is also reasonable for people although Tatsfield don't have train service but 464 runs half-hourly during the day.

[westhamgeezer]

Oct 29, 2013 20:09:55 GMT snoggle said:

Oct 28, 2013 14:38:38 GMT westhamgeezer said:

Quite Complex this, I'm sure that it could be made more simple somehow, just haven't worked it out yet! Incidentally, is there any reason why on the on-line TFL map of route R5/R10, it only shows them going as far as Green St. Green??

Probably the simpler thing to do is to break the loop and create two separate out and back services. You could do something like Orpington - Cudham - Halstead as one service. The other could be Orpington - Pratts Bottom - Halstead. I've no idea at all how much or how little traffic there is around the current loop service which would be a crucial factor in deciding if you did break the loop.

The other thing that might be possible given the short distance involved is to run the R3 on from Chelsfield and run down to Halstead up to, say, Green St Green or Orpington Hospital via either side of the loop. The link into Orpington could be made by changing buses at GSG or simply by travelling via Chelsfield. The key to that sort of change would be running time and if it required more buses than now. Restructuring the loop services might give options, as previously suggested, to link to other hourly routes like the R6, R7 or R8.

I suspect the current R5/10 is the simplest and cheapest way of providing a service to that part of the rural London / Kent fringe. Let's be honest - a broadly hourly service round the loop is pretty good for fairly marginal territory. There are other routes, like the W10 or 399, which have far fewer journeys despite there being reasonable levels of housing on both routes. The only compensation is Crews Hill and Hadley Wood do have a reasonable train service instead.

Snoggle, I had actually been thinking of the exact same thing. The whole network could possibly do with a bit of a revamp, certainly it is a bit of an anomoly to have circular services now especially ones with odd headways althoughh this is quite a unique and rural bit for London. The Halstead bit must also take a few extra mins.

[Paul]

I route learned these two routes (along with the R7) today; are they ever going to be fun! I can definitely see why late running occurs. Cudham Lane is really not suited to buses; the rest of the country loop isn't as bad as I had been led to believe but one is going to need to be very careful along Cudham Lane

[lonmark]

I wondering Anyone heard about the changes to Route R5/R10 yet? i mean timetable changes for run every 75 mins instead of every 60 mins?

I found nothing to say about start for sat 7th Dec yet!

[Paul]

Nov 22, 2013 15:52:07 GMT lonmark said:

I wondering Anyone heard about the changes to Route R5/R10 yet? i mean timetable changes for run every 75 mins instead of every 60 mins?

I found nothing to say about start for sat 7th Dec yet!

The consultation is still open (for another few hours anyway!) so there won't be any announcement about a timetable change just yet

[snoggle]

Nov 22, 2013 15:52:07 GMT lonmark said:

I wondering Anyone heard about the changes to Route R5/R10 yet? i mean timetable changes for run every 75 mins instead of every 60 mins?

I found nothing to say about start for sat 7th Dec yet!

The consultation only closes today!

I can't prove anything but I would be astonished if the change to the lower frequency of every 75 mins did not happen. TfL have already decided to accept a bid from Stagecoach that I'm convinced includes a longer running time so they run the service reliably. They are not going to sign up to an impossible timetable because it would cost them too much money in contract deductions.

If I was going to be horribly cynical I would simply say the consultation is a "sticking plaster" to show intent and they'll implement the revised frequency no matter what people say. The consultation page says TfL will send timetables to households along the route - they haven't got long between today and the 7th Dec to read all the comments, review them, have a review / approval meeting, decide what to do, confirm the decision with Stagecoach, confirm the timetable, get it printed and then distributed. All that in a fortnight? Pull the other one . The leaflets are already at the printers because the change will go ahead regardless!

The only catch is making sure that peak time connections are not too changed from now. I'm sure Stagecoach and TfL will have paid attention to that.

[eggmiester]

Knockholt pound is the boundary point, and actually is inside the tfl zone 6 area as is knockholt station. I know as I have family that live there. The 402 also passes knockholt pound on its section between halstead and Dunton Green so effectively re-enters the tfl area for about half a mile on that section.

[lonmark]

It def go ahead with every 75 minutes each on route R5/R10. I don't know how local people will take it when they find out on next saturday!!!

[Paul]

Nov 29, 2013 16:02:22 GMT lonmark said:

It def go ahead with every 75 minutes each on route R5/R10. I don't know how local people will take it when they find out on next saturday!!!

They'll be too busy being pleasantly surprised by the better drivers on the routes

[Deleted]

Consultation and compromise - the enemy of creativity

[danorak]

Nov 29, 2013 17:11:00 GMT @gnicholass said:

Consultation and compromise - the enemy of creativity

An enigmatic (but accurate!) statement... Although I appreciate you probably can't share it, that does rather sound like Stagecoach may have had a more imaginative idea rejected.

[Paul]

Nov 29, 2013 17:50:06 GMT danorak said:

Nov 29, 2013 17:11:00 GMT @gnicholass said:

Consultation and compromise - the enemy of creativity

An enigmatic (but accurate!) statement... Although I appreciate you probably can't share it, that does rather sound like Stagecoach may have had a more imaginative idea rejected.

Certainly sounds that way; a second bus with a scheduled meeting point at The Three Horseshoes at Knockholt Pound maybe? Would definitely make things more reliable although maybe the new schedule should be given a chance

[markyl]

The change has been confirmed

www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/livetravelnews/realtime/buses/bus-service-changes.pdf

[danorak]

The consultation report & response to issues raised make interesting reading.
consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/routes-r5-and-r10/consult_view

"There were 92 responses in total (all received online) 80 from members of the public and 12 from stakeholders. There were 87 responses which were generally opposed to the proposals, and 5 responses which were generally supportive."

In the light of other discussions, the entry for Bromley Council is worth noting:
"There was no final response from the Council itself but they requested more information for the reasons for the change."

And one of the reasons for not linking with the R7 is a bit unconvincing:
"Route R7 currently runs every 60 minutes between the Aquila Estate and Orpington. It currently operates reliably. Combining it with routes R5 / R10 would compromise its reliability as the resulting service would be relatively long. Additionally there would not be enough time to run along Station Approach to and from Orpington Station affecting over 60 passengers per day.

The reliability argument is fair enough but I think the Station Approach comment stretches the point.

[Deleted]

Doesn't this just prove tfl don't listen to the results of consultation?