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Post by vjaska on Dec 7, 2013 14:35:06 GMT
Doesn't this just prove tfl don't listen to the results of consultation? Yep, especially when looking through past consultations as well. As for Bromley Council, it doesn't surprise me that they couldn't even be bothered to make a final response - they seem to dislike public transport.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 14:43:49 GMT
Doesn't this just prove tfl don't listen to the results of consultation? Yep, especially when looking through past consultations as well. As for Bromley Council, it doesn't surprise me that they couldn't even be bothered to make a final response - they seem to dislike public transport. No doesn't surprise me either about Bromley Council. They are shocking when it comes to public services. Look at the 354 & 352 for example. Both still mon-sat despite serving areas quite deep into Beckenham and Bromley/Ravensbourne which is a fair old walk to the nearest Sunday service. Actually, as a borough, it probably has the most mon-sat only services.
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Post by jay38a on Dec 7, 2013 15:14:57 GMT
Yep, especially when looking through past consultations as well. As for Bromley Council, it doesn't surprise me that they couldn't even be bothered to make a final response - they seem to dislike public transport. No doesn't surprise me either about Bromley Council. They are shocking when it comes to public services. Look at the 354 & 352 for example. Both still mon-sat despite serving areas quite deep into Beckenham and Bromley/Ravensbourne which is a fair old walk to the nearest Sunday service. Actually, as a borough, it probably has the most mon-sat only services. I can understand why some routes in the Bromley borough are only Mon - Sat like the R5/R10 and R8, as the passenger numbers just don't justify a Sunday service and are very rural services. There was a proposal to reintroduce the 402 from Knockholt Pound to Bromley on a Sunday with subsidy from TfL a few years ago but that proposal didn't seem to get far. The R7, 352 and 354 on the other hand do get used more and should have Sunday services and for the R7 an evening service too. The R3, R4 and R6 need to get looked into as the Sunday and evening service is only hourly. Sutton have Routes S3 and S4 which are every 20 mins during the day but have no evening or Sunday service, and are well used, so that's another two that need to be looked at.
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Post by danorak on Dec 7, 2013 15:43:26 GMT
Doesn't this just prove tfl don't listen to the results of consultation? I suppose we should bear in mind that a consultation isn't a referendum. In fairness, TfL do sometimes make changes to plans post-consultation: the services to Kidbrooke Village being an example although that was another case of a local council failing to appreciate the effect of their own actions on the bus network. What raises an eyebrow here is that the five 'generally supportive' responses are from members of the public. Normally, bodies like TfL give more weight to 'stakeholders' views. So, perhaps unsurprisingly, this proposal has been very poorly received.
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Post by DT 11 on Dec 7, 2013 20:16:33 GMT
The consultation report & response to issues raised make interesting reading. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/routes-r5-and-r10/consult_view"There were 92 responses in total (all received online) 80 from members of the public and 12 from stakeholders. There were 87 responses which were generally opposed to the proposals, and 5 responses which were generally supportive." In the light of other discussions, the entry for Bromley Council is worth noting: "There was no final response from the Council itself but they requested more information for the reasons for the change." And one of the reasons for not linking with the R7 is a bit unconvincing: "Route R7 currently runs every 60 minutes between the Aquila Estate and Orpington. It currently operates reliably. Combining it with routes R5 / R10 would compromise its reliability as the resulting service would be relatively long. Additionally there would not be enough time to run along Station Approach to and from Orpington Station affecting over 60 passengers per day. The reliability argument is fair enough but I think the Station Approach comment stretches the point. From Reading the Consultation Report final.pdf "Use smaller buses to prevent them getting stuck when in conflict with larger vehicles""Remove Halstead loop to improve reliability""Move driver change over to the end of the route to improve reliability"The three best things I read in that Consultation. The only thing about that is some people would have to walk a bit further in the Halstead area. In all honesty I think the service would be better off with Optare Solos. The R8 seems to cope with 8.9m buses more than the R5/R10 IMO. I do feel it for the residents of these routes who now have to wait 1Hr 30 mins for the same bus now. Now that it has new buses the same size and length and a new timetable I wonder how many complaints TFL will recieve. I personally think that in the AM/PM peaks that two buses should work the route instead of one to maintain the hourly link. Just have to ensure the buses are not in Cudham Lane at the same time. "Knockholt Pound / Three Horseshoes" would be a good passing point for both buses. A bit like the 464 cannot have two buses up Salt Box Hill at once. The driver changeover has already been sorted by Stagecoach Selkent as TB change drivers at Orpington Station. I don't see the point of Low Frequency services changing driver mid route tbh as all it does it's makes the service late.... Reading the second PDF "Responses to the Issues Raised" "The route can be busy from Green Street Green and Orpington so if smaller buses were used these is a risk that short distance passengers from Orpington could crowd out longer distance passengers for the southern section of the service"This is pure rubbish IMO. Passengers in Green Street Green have the 358, R1, R8 & R11 to get to Orpington, the majority will just get on any bus that turns up a smaller bus on the R5/R10 would mean nothing. The whole purpose of the service is to serve areas that are NOT served by buses, it seems TFL want to keep the 8.9m buses just so that the Green Street Green - Orpington section maintains a decent sized bus, where is the common sense in this? Shouldn't the main focus be Cudham, Knockholt and Halstead?, Green Street Green - Orpington has quite a few services. So it is a risk to put smaller buses on the route? I think that is pure rubbish IMO, seems like an excuse. Solos have done the route many times. The R5/R10 according to the London Assembly is the most unused service in the Network. What sense does this make " The route can be busy from Green Street Green and Orpington". I myself have done the routes end to end and never have seen the bus get very very busy in Green Street Green, about 10-15 passengers really. The 358 is something I would call really busy.
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R5 / R10
Dec 7, 2013 20:28:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2013 20:28:40 GMT
Yes the 358 ideally needs double deckers but you would have to split the route up to do so. Its a very long route prone to delays and the frequency doesn't help when you get a gap. Maybe needs a frequency increase to every 10 mins and a bit more running time.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 7, 2013 22:25:16 GMT
A couple of comments.
I think it is unrealistic to expect any London Borough to provide funding for bus services these days. They don't have the cash unless it is from a developer's contribution. To criticise Bromley for not supporting Sunday services is unfair - it's not their job. They have enough problem delivering their core obligations to house people, educate people and provide social care.
On the subject of routes that don't run on Sundays or Evenings it is worth considering that it might be the case that residents have demanded that they do not have buses in the evening disturbing their peace. That was the case with the 395/398 change up near Greenford. Given how the Sutton routes twist and turn round the back streets I'd not be surprised if there were some restrictions. Parked cars may also be an issue. I can see why people wonder about Sunday services on some routes but it's the old money thing again.
The R5 and R10 are not the least used (non School) bus service on the TfL network. The 399 wins that particular accolade. Taken together the R5 and R10 have nearly 60k pax per annum which is a little way up from the bottom of the list.
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Post by danorak on Dec 9, 2013 12:46:33 GMT
Probably spending a bit too much time pondering this but...
I found it quite interesting that the report said most of the Halstead passengers are bound for Orpington, which answers one of the queries I had. So the Halstead loop does not necessarily need to be part of the R5/R10 - I wonder if there is any scope for incorporating it into an unravelled and simplified R3. It's also a little curious that TfL has paid any attention to the needs of Halstead given that it's in Kent and has an alternative service.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2013 19:48:03 GMT
Yes, taking the R3 down to Knockholt Pound to terminate, removing the Halstead jaunt from the R5/10 in the process. The loop itself could be broken on the Sevenoaks Road, instead of following the 402, it could go the other way to Knockholt station.
The Consultation response response does seem to be a bit of a stitch up as it is. It doesn't even apologise for being so bullish in sticking to its proposal. Could this be a trial of a 'sulky service'?
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