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Post by vjaska on Mar 19, 2014 18:39:23 GMT
But there ain't other routes that goes from Paddington to Queens Park, the 36 is the only route that goes from Paddington to Queens Park and there is demand. Then surely the 332 can be re-routed via route 36 towards Queens Park, then turn onto Carlton Vale and then onto Kilburn High Road? I wonder what could also be done about 436 as it is well used. Why not just leave it as it is, I mean, it's not broke so why fix it? The 436 was only a renumbering of the Lewisham to Paddington journeys that were run as the 36 (the 36 ran as two overlapping sections so having a 36 running from Queens Park right through Lewisham is a big no no) and both routes serve there purpose as it is. Don't forget that Crossrail could bring a lot of people to Queens Park with it being close to the line as well as bringing many passengers from the south who may want to miss out the overcrowded Central London stations.
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Post by sid on Mar 19, 2014 19:11:21 GMT
I don't mean to offend anybody but wouldn't it be easier if those who don't want to change anything stayed out of this thread? Surely the whole point of it is to throw around a few ideas on how things could be changed?
Just a thought...........I'll now take cover!
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Post by Mokujin on Mar 19, 2014 19:16:01 GMT
I don't mean to offend anybody but wouldn't it be easier if those who don't want to change anything stayed out of this thread? Surely the whole point of it is to throw around a few ideas on how things could be changed? Just a thought...........I'll now take cover! Yes, but its also to discuss about these changes. Its basically like a debate.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 19, 2014 19:35:27 GMT
I don't mean to offend anybody but wouldn't it be easier if those who don't want to change anything stayed out of this thread? Surely the whole point of it is to throw around a few ideas on how things could be changed? Just a thought...........I'll now take cover! And part of any valid debate is for those who support the status quo to argue their point just as much as those who advocate change. I have yet to see anyone come up with a valid reason for changing two of the busiest routes in London and how the millions who use those routes would see an improvement to their journeys or, at the very least, have the disbenefits minimised. Do people really want to slow down journeys for a proportion of 17,000,000m+ trips per year? Yes some people *might* benefit from the diverted 18 route through Paddington but I fear many would not. The disbenefit calculation would be huge. The arguments so far seem to be Route 36 takes too long No one uses route 36 north of Paddington You can merge the 36 and 436 even though the route corridor has had sectional working for decades. TfL just formalised it into 2 contracts. We don't like there being two route numbers. Can someone say how any of the above affects *passengers*? - you know those pour souls who pay money to travel from a to b. Anyone know how many people travel on the Paddington - Queens Park section? I don't have the data - does anyone? How many people travel across Paddington on route 36? How many people travel on route 18 between Royal Oak and Edgware Road and / or board and alight on this section? Oh I'll just throw in "Notting Hill Carnival" as a handy catch phrase and issue for people to think about. By all means have a discussion but it would be really, really, really helpful to say what the benefits would be from the change and how any downside would be dealt with by other changes, a new route, whatever. Otherwise we might as well play a game of "hammer the jelly to the wall".
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Post by sid on Mar 19, 2014 20:07:16 GMT
Well as I see it the main advantage of the 36 change would be a high frequency (every 3mins?) service between Paddington and Lewisham, rather than the 36 and 436 both running at different frequencies, possibly using larger buses which probably wouldn't be suitable for the Queens Park section. There would also be more buses to and from Lewisham, as somebody else mentioned most passengers who get off the 36 at NX then wait for another bus towards Lewisham.
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 19, 2014 20:22:09 GMT
Well as I see it the main advantage of the 36 change would be a high frequency (every 3mins?) service between Paddington and Lewisham, rather than the 36 and 436 both running at different frequencies, possibly using larger buses which probably wouldn't be suitable for the Queens Park section. There would also be more buses to and from Lewisham, as somebody else mentioned most passengers who get off the 36 at NX then wait for another bus towards Lewisham. The 36/436 currently run at the same frequency plus, every 3 minutes is not needed as off peak between Lewisham & New Cross the 21/436 carries lighter loads. Tbh all that needs to be done is the frequency of the 436 during the peaks increased slightly to provide extra capacity, but then again with what stand space which is currently now taken by 108, 178 & 261 now standing in Molesworth Street. The Lewisham Gateway project has actually made it a lot worse for buses standing in the area.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 19, 2014 20:39:41 GMT
I don't mean to offend anybody but wouldn't it be easier if those who don't want to change anything stayed out of this thread? Surely the whole point of it is to throw around a few ideas on how things could be changed? Just a thought...........I'll now take cover! No, the whole point of this thread is for anyone to discuss advantages & disadvantages of routes to be axed, there would be little point of having the thread if it were for just people to agree with each other and/or agree with every suggestion made. I won't staying out of the thread just for the fact that I think the 36 & 436 should remain as they are.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 19, 2014 21:24:29 GMT
Well as I see it the main advantage of the 36 change would be a high frequency (every 3mins?) service between Paddington and Lewisham, rather than the 36 and 436 both running at different frequencies, possibly using larger buses which probably wouldn't be suitable for the Queens Park section. There would also be more buses to and from Lewisham, as somebody else mentioned most passengers who get off the 36 at NX then wait for another bus towards Lewisham. I don't know the relative density of use of the 36, 436 and other buses on the corridor in SE London. What I do know is that there is merit in having services which overlap or which start / finish part way along a corridor as that means people stand a chance of having some buses that are not jammed solid with people. We must also remember the 136 which supplements the 436 east of Peckham and someone has also mentioned the 21 and 321 joining in the fun from New Cross. I've no doubt it is a very busy corridor but doing the old "core route" concept of just one service is possibly not the right answer in this case. In some respects today's route structure of 36/136/436 is not that much different than the old 36/36A/36B although termini and frequencies vary. People in London are also fairly well attuned to changing buses to make quick journeys rather than necessarily waiting for a direct bus (it does, of course, depend on the journey being made).
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Post by Nathan on Mar 19, 2014 22:07:42 GMT
The thing is with Crossrail and changes to the Underground going on, I still believe that my idea for the 36 change is doable. As mentioned before, other links are provided for the missed out areas.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 19, 2014 23:11:02 GMT
The thing is with Crossrail and changes to the Underground going on, I still believe that my idea for the 36 change is doable. As mentioned before, other links are provided for the missed out areas. I really, really do not see Crossrail as providing any justification for playing around with the 36. If it ran north - south or even NW - SE then yes there would be huge merit in looking at the 36. I recognise Crossrail touches Woolwich but that hardly helps New Cross, Peckham and Lewisham. We also keep forgetting that we are talking about areas which are relatively poor which means there is disproportionate use of buses because they are cheap and if you can do a long journey for £1.45 rather than forking out over £3 to use rail / tube then people will do it. If a future Mayor ever gets the tube into the Camberwell / Peckham / New Cross / Lewisham corridor then there will be massive changes to the bus network and they'll have a strong justification. However I feel that we may never get there given the prospect of extending the Bakerloo Line never ever gets to the top of the money list.
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Post by sid on Mar 20, 2014 7:03:00 GMT
Well as I see it the main advantage of the 36 change would be a high frequency (every 3mins?) service between Paddington and Lewisham, rather than the 36 and 436 both running at different frequencies, possibly using larger buses which probably wouldn't be suitable for the Queens Park section. There would also be more buses to and from Lewisham, as somebody else mentioned most passengers who get off the 36 at NX then wait for another bus towards Lewisham. The 36/436 currently run at the same frequency plus, every 3 minutes is not needed as off peak between Lewisham & New Cross the 21/436 carries lighter loads. Tbh all that needs to be done is the frequency of the 436 during the peaks increased slightly to provide extra capacity, but then again with what stand space which is currently now taken by 108, 178 & 261 now standing in Molesworth Street. The Lewisham Gateway project has actually made it a lot worse for buses standing in the area.[/ quote] According to the London bus routes site the 36 and 436 run at different intervals. More buses to Lewisham are needed for reasons already given. Queens Park would be better with a more localised service rather than one operated from a garage on the other side of town.
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 20, 2014 7:44:36 GMT
When it last checked it was 6-10 mins for both routes. Also you should really read snoggle's posts above, which are the most sensible posts on this thread, not trying to patronise, but he has hit the nail on this head for this topic
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Post by Nathan on Mar 20, 2014 9:52:46 GMT
The thing is with Crossrail and changes to the Underground going on, I still believe that my idea for the 36 change is doable. As mentioned before, other links are provided for the missed out areas. I really, really do not see Crossrail as providing any justification for playing around with the 36. If it ran north - south or even NW - SE then yes there would be huge merit in looking at the 36. I recognise Crossrail touches Woolwich but that hardly helps New Cross, Peckham and Lewisham. We also keep forgetting that we are talking about areas which are relatively poor which means there is disproportionate use of buses because they are cheap and if you can do a long journey for £1.45 rather than forking out over £3 to use rail / tube then people will do it. If a future Mayor ever gets the tube into the Camberwell / Peckham / New Cross / Lewisham corridor then there will be massive changes to the bus network and they'll have a strong justification. However I feel that we may never get there given the prospect of extending the Bakerloo Line never ever gets to the top of the money list. But how many people are really going to stay on a bus from South East London to North West London? Doesn't that sound a bit TOO long? Think about it...you're not exactly going to see a crowded bus of people going from places as far as New Cross, Peckham and Camberwell ALL THE WAY to areas such as Harrow Road. Even though it may be cheaper, its a long journey. And there's only a minority of people who would be willing to do this, and I don't see the point in running a route that long just for a minority. And just for the record, if anyone was to travel from Peckham/Camberwell to Queen's Park, getting the tube from Elephant & Castle would probably be far more appealing. Now no one cam really argue that Elephant to Queens Park has no direct link.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 20, 2014 10:07:09 GMT
The 36/436 currently run at the same frequency plus, every 3 minutes is not needed as off peak between Lewisham & New Cross the 21/436 carries lighter loads. Tbh all that needs to be done is the frequency of the 436 during the peaks increased slightly to provide extra capacity, but then again with what stand space which is currently now taken by 108, 178 & 261 now standing in Molesworth Street. The Lewisham Gateway project has actually made it a lot worse for buses standing in the area. According to the London bus routes site the 36 and 436 run at different intervals. More buses to Lewisham are needed for reasons already given. Queens Park would be better with a more localised service rather than one operated from a garage on the other side of town. In the peaks, evenings and Sundays the 36 and 436 run at the same frequencies. Off peak the 436 offers 8 bph rather than the 36's 10 bph. East of Peckham the 136 provides an extra 6 tph. East of New Cross Gate you have another 17 bph from the 21 / 321 onwards to Lewisham. One has to ask just how many buses to Lewisham are really neeed if 31 bph is somehow not adequate. I've left the 47 and 185 out of this debate given they serve different corridors. No one here has set out a cogent case that shows that there is demand *from Paddington* for more than 8 bph to Lewisham. I don't have the data on boarding and alighting on the full corridor from Paddington to Lewisham - does anybody? Given that most, but not all, bus journeys are relatively short in length it makes sense to concentrate resources on those areas with dense demand which is probably why there are loads of buses on the Vauxhall - Camberwell, Camberwell - New Cross and New Cross - Lewisham sections. Lewisham is hardly devoid of transport options given the very frequent DLR service and regular main line trains although they're more costly to use. Where is the evidence that a localised service for Queens Park is what is needed? Are we to declare that routes run from "faraway" garages are somehow invalid? On that basis most routes in Zone 1 should run because they're run from garages in the suburbs by and large. Route 55 run from Leyton - dreadful. Route 2 run from Norwood - disgraceful. Route 6 run from Willesden - appalling. And as for route 113 run from bleeping Edgware - stop it immediately. Meanwhile back on planet earth it is perfectly clear that long routes can be run effectively *provided* there are adequate resources to do so. The 36 does have a fair amount of lost mileage but it's no worse than many other high frequency Z1 services. It is worth bearing in mind that the rail works at Paddington and Victoria are quite likely to be a significant factor in those losses given the local congestion. Lewisham is about to become a nightmare for years and so is Vauxhall when they start removing the gyratory. We also need to consider where people travel to and from on the 36 and before chopping it to bits you need to think where a curtailed route would stand - there is not a surplus of stand space for high frequency routes.There is no space at Victoria nor Vauxhall so where would it go? Leon Daniels told people at the Bus Seminar that demands for more and more services are all very well but people don't want more bus stops, bus stands, drivers' toilet facilities built in town centres or in local areas. In short he was carefully suggesting that people were not being rational in their expectations by wanting more service but not wanting the associated infrastructure.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 20, 2014 10:21:35 GMT
I really, really do not see Crossrail as providing any justification for playing around with the 36. If it ran north - south or even NW - SE then yes there would be huge merit in looking at the 36. I recognise Crossrail touches Woolwich but that hardly helps New Cross, Peckham and Lewisham. We also keep forgetting that we are talking about areas which are relatively poor which means there is disproportionate use of buses because they are cheap and if you can do a long journey for £1.45 rather than forking out over £3 to use rail / tube then people will do it. If a future Mayor ever gets the tube into the Camberwell / Peckham / New Cross / Lewisham corridor then there will be massive changes to the bus network and they'll have a strong justification. However I feel that we may never get there given the prospect of extending the Bakerloo Line never ever gets to the top of the money list. But how many people are really going to stay on a bus from South East London to North West London? Doesn't that sound a bit TOO long? Think about it...you're not exactly going to see a crowded bus of people going from places as far as New Cross, Peckham and Camberwell ALL THE WAY to areas such as Harrow Road. Even though it may be cheaper, its a long journey. And there's only a minority of people who would be willing to do this, and I don't see the point in running a route that long just for a minority. And just for the record, if anyone was to travel from Peckham/Camberwell to Queen's Park, getting the tube from Elephant & Castle would probably be far more appealing. Now no one cam really argue that Elephant to Queens Park has no direct link. I think you are failing to appreciate the concept of "time rich / money poor". There are plenty of people who make long bus journeys for a single bus fare rather than taking multiple train journeys for a much higher fare. They are more than willing to trade the low fare for a longer journey time because they can't afford the rail fare. There are also plenty of journeys where rail is not a feasible mode so people change buses or take long orbital trips - one reason why the 34 and 123 in my area are so full in the rush hour. The Bus Seminar recently said that benefit changes are causing a shift of people from Zone 2 to Zones 4, 5 and 6. This is going to have a big impact on suburban buses which are going to be overloaded with people starting long journeys from far out and then catching radial routes into Zone 1 further in. Places like Harrow and Barnet are going to face problems. You can't just dismiss the concept of long routes because it doesn't fit your own view of the world. The 36 corridor stretching from NW London to SE London is a long standing service. The London Bus Route historical site shows the 36 from 1934 and it may be older than that. If the demand was not there across the centre then it would not have been sustained for as many decades as it has been. This is why I get enraged by politicians who just blithely say "oh Zone 1 should just have short, frequent routes and people can change elsewhere". This just *completely* ignores the reality of how best to run bus services, road capacity in Zone 1 but most of all how people prefer to travel by bus. Generally they like to take direct buses if they can on radial corridors. Why else does the top 20 bus route list include so many radial routes?
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