TfL consults Elephant and Castle gyratory

[snoggle]

People might be interested in the TfL plans to change the gyratory at Elephant and Castle. More slug powered traffic lights and moved bus stops to make things worse for bus passengers. There are public exhibition sessions later in March.

[M1104]

The proposed layout is similar to what was done south of Westminster Bridge by the old GLC Building/County Hall.

[DT 11]

What a ridiculous idea.

The plan to prevent traffic turning from Newington Causeway to New Kent Road is stupidness. It looks to me anyone who wishes to get to New Kent Road will have to take a longer route. In fact approaching Elephant will be a waste may as well go via Great Dover Street.

Why would they want to extend the shopping centre, Elephant & Castle shopping centre is probably the most unappealing place for shopping...

I also think moving the bus stop to Walworth Road is also stupid.

[vjaska]

Saw this in the Evening Standard last week, where they listed other junctions & gyratorys that will modified to the same effect.

Personally, I find these plans quite poor - I can only see an increase in congestion, especially with less lanes in both directions and an increase in traffic lights which we already have far too many in London.

[overgroundcommuter]

Moving the southbound bus stop towards Camberwell Green to Walworth Road. No thanks!

It'll benefit a minority of people who use the National Rail station, those who use the tube would be better off using Newington Causeway or London Road stops instead.

[Deleted]

The roundabout at Elephant & Castle is a dangerous mess, I was once on a bus going around it that got hit by a car. It is an awful layout regardless of whether you are a pedestrian, on a bike, or a car or bigger vehicle.

Apart from local traffic, which will still be using local roads so unaffected, who goes from Borough to Bricklayer's Arms via Elephant anyway when Great Dover Street is shorter? Loosing access between Newington Causeway and New Kent Road seems a reasonable tradeoff for the added congestion that would be caused by keeping it.

And no one is suggesting extending the shopping centre.

It may not be the greatest plan, it still seems a mess, but something needs to be done to it because every year between 30 and 300 people suffering injuries on it, depending on whose figures you believe, which has seen local residents campaigning for a change for several years.

Mar 12, 2014 14:36:53 GMT vjaska said:

Personally, I find these plans quite poor - I can only see an increase in congestion, especially with less lanes in both directions and an increase in traffic lights which we already have far too many in London.

Would you say the same of St Matthew's Church where they effectively did the same when the removed the gyratory and made that section of Brixon Hill bi-directional?

[Ice Prxnce]

That planning looks really ugly, Elephant is fine as it is and doesn't need any re-developing.
What shops are even in that shopping centre? Because I would personally introduce more well-known shops rather than changing the whole place.

[vjaska]

Mar 12, 2014 16:16:18 GMT someone said:

The roundabout at Elephant & Castle is a dangerous mess, I was once on a bus going around it that got hit by a car. It is an awful layout regardless of whether you are a pedestrian, on a bike, or a car or bigger vehicle.

Apart from local traffic, which will still be using local roads so unaffected, who goes from Borough to Bricklayer's Arms via Elephant anyway when Great Dover Street is shorter? Loosing access between Newington Causeway and New Kent Road seems a reasonable tradeoff for the added congestion that would be caused by keeping it.

And no one is suggesting extending the shopping centre.

It may not be the greatest plan, it still seems a mess, but something needs to be done to it because every year between 30 and 300 people suffering injuries on it, depending on whose figures you believe, which has seen local residents campaigning for a change for several years.

Mar 12, 2014 14:36:53 GMT vjaska said:

Personally, I find these plans quite poor - I can only see an increase in congestion, especially with less lanes in both directions and an increase in traffic lights which we already have far too many in London.

Would you say the same of St Matthew's Church where they effectively did the same when the removed the gyratory and made that section of Brixon Hill bi-directional?

What they did in Brixton wasn't great either - whilst the one way part of Effra Road has less traffic on, the congestion around the rest of the gyratory hasn't improved - if anything, it's worse. They also missed the opportunity to implement a bus only right hand turn from Brixton Road to Acre Lane similar to the one at Stockwell Road/Gresham Road. The gyratory lost a bus stand which was used by turning buses and would be ideal if any services in the future need to be permanently terminated - the stand that survived has been full up on a number of occasions due to short turning buses & the P4 congregating together. There is a far greater chance for accidents as I've regularly seen cars from Coldharbour Lane make a U-turn as soon as they enter Brixton Hill as well as when cars coming from Brixton Road approach Effra Road & Brixton Hill - I've lost count the amount of near misses I've seen. Admittingly, the plans could of been worse - the first plans wanted to pedestrianise the one way part of Effra Road with all Tulse Hill traffic being funneled along Brixton Hill & St. Matthews Road, making St. Matthews Road bi-directional.

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2014 19:40:37 GMT vjaska said:

What they did in Brixton wasn't great either - whilst the one way part of Effra Road has less traffic on, the congestion around the rest of the gyratory hasn't improved - if anything, it's worse. They also missed the opportunity to implement a bus only right hand turn from Brixton Road to Acre Lane similar to the one at Stockwell Road/Gresham Road. The gyratory lost a bus stand which was used by turning buses and would be ideal if any services in the future need to be permanently terminated - the stand that survived has been full up on a number of occasions due to short turning buses & the P4 congregating together. There is a far greater chance for accidents as I've regularly seen cars from Coldharbour Lane make a U-turn as soon as they enter Brixton Hill as well as when cars coming from Brixton Road approach Effra Road & Brixton Hill - I've lost count the amount of near misses I've seen. Admittingly, the plans could of been worse - the first plans wanted to pedestrianise the one way part of Effra Road with all Tulse Hill traffic being funneled along Brixton Hill & St. Matthews Road, making St. Matthews Road bi-directional.

Thanks. It did not seem any different to me, but now I use Clapham more for the tube and do not go that way as much any more so thought you would know it better. Is the stand on Morval Road used much? Maybe the P4 could be extended to there so it serves the Currys, and free up space for turning buses. Or maybe they could add a stand on the other side of Brixton Water Lane and make have it terminate there on a one-way loop and then come back via Brixton Hill.

Because they never made the end of Effra Road a shared space as originally planned, as you said, there was no real local benefit to the changes in the end. The plans for Elephant though would make the centre of the roundabout into a proper public space rather than having it surrounded by traffic on all side so do bdnefit the local area, as well as the safety problems. It would certainly make getting from the Thameslink station to the Bakerloo one a lot better when you effectively only have one road to cross instead of having to go through a roundabout, or use the Northern line station and walk the length of the platforms.

[vjaska]

Mar 12, 2014 21:54:19 GMT someone said:

Mar 12, 2014 19:40:37 GMT vjaska said:

What they did in Brixton wasn't great either - whilst the one way part of Effra Road has less traffic on, the congestion around the rest of the gyratory hasn't improved - if anything, it's worse. They also missed the opportunity to implement a bus only right hand turn from Brixton Road to Acre Lane similar to the one at Stockwell Road/Gresham Road. The gyratory lost a bus stand which was used by turning buses and would be ideal if any services in the future need to be permanently terminated - the stand that survived has been full up on a number of occasions due to short turning buses & the P4 congregating together. There is a far greater chance for accidents as I've regularly seen cars from Coldharbour Lane make a U-turn as soon as they enter Brixton Hill as well as when cars coming from Brixton Road approach Effra Road & Brixton Hill - I've lost count the amount of near misses I've seen. Admittingly, the plans could of been worse - the first plans wanted to pedestrianise the one way part of Effra Road with all Tulse Hill traffic being funneled along Brixton Hill & St. Matthews Road, making St. Matthews Road bi-directional.

Thanks. It did not seem any different to me, but now I use Clapham more for the tube and do not go that way as much any more so thought you would know it better. Is the stand on Morval Road used much? Maybe the P4 could be extended to there so it serves the Currys, and free up space for turning buses. Or maybe they could add a stand on the other side of Brixton Water Lane and make have it terminate there on a one-way loop and then come back via Brixton Hill.

Because they never made the end of Effra Road a shared space as originally planned, as you said, there was no real local benefit to the changes in the end. The plans for Elephant though would make the centre of the roundabout into a proper public space rather than having it surrounded by traffic on all side so do bdnefit the local area, as well as the safety problems. It would certainly make getting from the Thameslink station to the Bakerloo one a lot better when you effectively only have one road to cross instead of having to go through a roundabout, or use the Northern line station and walk the length of the platforms.

The stand on Morval Road is rarely used (the odd 3 or 133 - some 133's decide to display Morval Road & run up Effra Road from Brixton in service) but the issue with that stand is the parking on the opposite side of the road - if a few parking spots were removed, then I'm sure the P4 could stand there. The bi-directional part of Brixton Water Lane (the part that only sees dead running 201's) between St. Matthews Road & Brixton Hill is much wider but again, parking spaces would have to make way.

[Steve80]

Mar 12, 2014 13:00:15 GMT snoggle said:

People might be interested in the TfL plans to change the gyratory at Elephant and Castle. More slug powered traffic lights and moved bus stops to make things worse for bus passengers. There are public exhibition sessions later in March.

This should be good news for the cyclists with their own segregated tracks. I'm a bit worried for other traffic users though. It seems unnecessary to restrict traffic from entering New Kent Road coming from Newington Causeway. What if there's an accident forcing drivers to divert away from Great Dover Street or even Walworth Road?

But I have to agree that the junction should be redesigned especially as it has more collisions than any other junction in London. I myself have been involved in a collision on the roundabout as well - The car driver went to overtake me but cut in too early and clipped the front offside of my bus

[snoggle]

Mar 13, 2014 5:07:56 GMT Steve80 said:

Mar 12, 2014 13:00:15 GMT snoggle said:

People might be interested in the TfL plans to change the gyratory at Elephant and Castle. More slug powered traffic lights and moved bus stops to make things worse for bus passengers. There are public exhibition sessions later in March.

This should be good news for the cyclists with their own segregated tracks. I'm a bit worried for other traffic users though. It seems unnecessary to restrict traffic from entering New Kent Road coming from Newington Causeway. What if there's an accident forcing drivers to divert away from Great Dover Street or even Walworth Road?

But I have to agree that the junction should be redesigned especially as it has more collisions than any other junction in London. I myself have been involved in a collision on the roundabout as well - The car driver went to overtake me but cut in too early and clipped the front offside of my bus

I agree that it is a nasty junction but the general point is that there is a reasonable amount of capacity to handle the traffic. The plans seem to have a mix of segregated, shared use and unsegregated cycle paths. In other words there is no consistency in the design. Some of the cycle facilities on the plan involve some very awkward looking turns and it's not terribly clear if they are on dedicated traffic signals or shared with other vehicular movements. Some of those movements are at the end of London Road. I am also not terribly convinced about running cycle paths on the outside of bus stops by the Met Tabernacle on Plan A - a guaranteed source of conflict as some buses have to cut across cyclists twice.

I am also tiring of highway designs that have twenty zillion sets of traffic lights and tiny "holding areas" between each junction. This means light phases will either be incredibly short on each leg so as not to overload the holding areas or the phases are very long over several sets of lights to give some through flow of traffic. However that means there are long phases where nothing moves when other movements are allowed on to the junction. Elephant and Castle is very complicated and they've cut the Newington Causeway - Old Kent Rd movement simply because they cannot design a scheme with traffic lights that works. That move is not even permitted for cyclists which is just bonkers given the vast area being paved over. The other problem is that for some reason new junctions have narrow road lane widths and very awkward turns meaning buses and lorries cannot flow the junction. They must go very slowly as they have to nudge into an adjacent lane because the design forces them to do so. This is just rubbish - a few inches here and there would prevent this and mean smoother turns and a more comfortable journey and less stress for the drivers. The wording on the consultation acknowledges that journey times through the area will increase and that means bus journeys become less convenient. Every scheme seems to worsen the performance of bus services by slowing them down and moving bus stops to inconvenient locations for interchange.

We have the example of the Tottenham Hale scheme - not yet complete I accept - where the design is such that it takes ages to get through some of the junctions. They rerouted the 123 and the light phasing at the top of Monument Way to turn right into the High Road lasts 8 seconds. Whenever I've gone through there on a bus it takes 3 or 4 phases before the bus gets through as only 2-3 cars get through. People get frustrated with this and "take a chance" and zoom through just as the red comes on meaning they're at risk of colliding with traffic on Tottenham High Road. The other issue is that traffic is supposed to avoid Broad Lane under the new design and yet the majority still goes that way even months after the revised started and despite big signs telling people which way to go. It rather shows the design is not untuitively "logical" as to the quicker more appropriate route. Can you imagine what will happen if people don't work out they can't move from Newington Causeway to New Kent Road on the revised E&C layout? The place will grind to a complete halt.

I am half tempted to go the exhibition and ask annoying questions of the traffic engineers as I did for T Hale. Thus far I believe all the objections I raised on the T Hale scheme have been proved correct but, of course, no one took any notice. We do, still, have the joy of the new bus station to come.

[vjaska]

Personally, I'd of left it as it is but built a cycle path on top of the current north roundabout by removing the billboards & close subway access to the roundabout itself. One cycle lane would run towards London Road, one to Newington Causeway & one to New Kent Road. These would be signal controlled and cyclists would get a 5-10 second time limit to pass through the signals.

[vjaska]

Mar 12, 2014 14:36:53 GMT vjaska said:

Saw this in the Evening Standard last week, where they listed other junctions & gyratorys that will modified to the same effect.

Personally, I find these plans quite poor - I can only see an increase in congestion, especially with less lanes in both directions and an increase in traffic lights which we already have far too many in London.

As I eluded too, the Evening Standard published a list of the other junctions which will be modified.

"Alongside the transformation of 33 of London’s road junctions announced last week as part of the Mayor’s cycling programme, there will also be more than £200m of additional far-reaching improvements at 17 major locations across the capital, including at; Croydon Fiveways; Balham High Road; Brent Cross; Charlie Brown’s Roundabout; Euston Road; Lombard Roundabout; London Road Roundabout; Malden Rushett; Mill Hill Circus; Purley Cross Gyratory; Barking Riverside; Seven Sisters Road; Stoke Newington Gyratory; Thornton Heath Ponds; Trinity Road; Tulse Hill Gyratory and Victoria Circus. Funding for these schemes would be covered by the TfL Business Plan and through third party contributions"

[Steve80]

Mar 13, 2014 11:19:57 GMT snoggle said:

Mar 13, 2014 5:07:56 GMT Steve80 said:

This should be good news for the cyclists with their own segregated tracks. I'm a bit worried for other traffic users though. It seems unnecessary to restrict traffic from entering New Kent Road coming from Newington Causeway. What if there's an accident forcing drivers to divert away from Great Dover Street or even Walworth Road?

But I have to agree that the junction should be redesigned especially as it has more collisions than any other junction in London. I myself have been involved in a collision on the roundabout as well - The car driver went to overtake me but cut in too early and clipped the front offside of my bus

I agree that it is a nasty junction but the general point is that there is a reasonable amount of capacity to handle the traffic. The plans seem to have a mix of segregated, shared use and unsegregated cycle paths. In other words there is no consistency in the design. Some of the cycle facilities on the plan involve some very awkward looking turns and it's not terribly clear if they are on dedicated traffic signals or shared with other vehicular movements. Some of those movements are at the end of London Road. I am also not terribly convinced about running cycle paths on the outside of bus stops by the Met Tabernacle on Plan A - a guaranteed source of conflict as some buses have to cut across cyclists twice.

I am also tiring of highway designs that have twenty zillion sets of traffic lights and tiny "holding areas" between each junction. This means light phases will either be incredibly short on each leg so as not to overload the holding areas or the phases are very long over several sets of lights to give some through flow of traffic. However that means there are long phases where nothing moves when other movements are allowed on to the junction. Elephant and Castle is very complicated and they've cut the Newington Causeway - Old Kent Rd movement simply because they cannot design a scheme with traffic lights that works. That move is not even permitted for cyclists which is just bonkers given the vast area being paved over. The other problem is that for some reason new junctions have narrow road lane widths and very awkward turns meaning buses and lorries cannot flow the junction. They must go very slowly as they have to nudge into an adjacent lane because the design forces them to do so. This is just rubbish - a few inches here and there would prevent this and mean smoother turns and a more comfortable journey and less stress for the drivers. The wording on the consultation acknowledges that journey times through the area will increase and that means bus journeys become less convenient. Every scheme seems to worsen the performance of bus services by slowing them down and moving bus stops to inconvenient locations for interchange.

We have the example of the Tottenham Hale scheme - not yet complete I accept - where the design is such that it takes ages to get through some of the junctions. They rerouted the 123 and the light phasing at the top of Monument Way to turn right into the High Road lasts 8 seconds. Whenever I've gone through there on a bus it takes 3 or 4 phases before the bus gets through as only 2-3 cars get through. People get frustrated with this and "take a chance" and zoom through just as the red comes on meaning they're at risk of colliding with traffic on Tottenham High Road. The other issue is that traffic is supposed to avoid Broad Lane under the new design and yet the majority still goes that way even months after the revised started and despite big signs telling people which way to go. It rather shows the design is not untuitively "logical" as to the quicker more appropriate route. Can you imagine what will happen if people don't work out they can't move from Newington Causeway to New Kent Road on the revised E&C layout? The place will grind to a complete halt.

I am half tempted to go the exhibition and ask annoying questions of the traffic engineers as I did for T Hale. Thus far I believe all the objections I raised on the T Hale scheme have been proved correct but, of course, no one took any notice. We do, still, have the joy of the new bus station to come.

Yes, looking at it in a bit more detail, I'm surprised that they have decided to have cycle lanes on the outside of bus stops. You also got the cycle lane on the inside for southbound traffic (towards Walworth/Kennington) but then suddenly the cycle lane is on the outside of the stops. That going to cause more problems for the bus drivers there.

But your comment has definitely made me think twice about this design. I do find that the traffic generally copes fairly well there. I only had concerns about the current junction as I had a few problems when trying to get out from Newington Causeway onto the roundabout while doing the 344 or the C10. Obviously I was not a regular driver of these routes so I would do what I normally do when approaching a roundabout in that I would use the far right hand lane when wishing to get to the third exit of a roundabout. What I did find is that it is very difficult to get onto the roundabout using that lane and I also noticed that every other bus would use the middle lane. Of course I learnt my lesson and decided to use the middle lane instead but then got a fright when a 415 bus overtook me by using the left hand lane and then taking my spot at the small bus lane on the roundabout. Basically, I was quite surprised at the mannerisms of the drivers at the Elephant.

The only good thing I can see is the added pedestrians lights. I'm not a big fan of those traffic lights with those holding areas (the contraflow bus lane at Trafalgar Square is the worst one I encountered so far), but having pedestrians lights is better than the subways with their dingy corridors and people begging for spare change. I much rather cross the main road.

As for Tottenham, the last time I drove up there I got lost due to some nightly roadworks which stopped us from going along that massive one way system on to Broad Lane and towards Seven Sisters. I can't remember how but I ended up in Wood Green! I remember going through the 192 route.