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Post by towerman on Aug 29, 2014 13:03:17 GMT
Does anyone know why when the 69 was cut back to Canning Town it wasn't reinstated back to Chingford Station at the other end & the 97 withdrawn?After all the 97 & the 269 before it were only introduced to replace the 69 between Walthamstow & Chingford.
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Post by Volvo on Aug 29, 2014 13:49:22 GMT
I don't really want to start another huge debate about routes being cut and other routes being extended etc but I would say maybe because the 97 is: well used, provides additional capacity.
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Route 69
Aug 29, 2014 14:46:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by sid on Aug 29, 2014 14:46:15 GMT
Does anyone know why when the 69 was cut back to Canning Town it wasn't reinstated back to Chingford Station at the other end & the 97 withdrawn?After all the 97 & the 269 before it were only introduced to replace the 69 between Walthamstow & Chingford. Good question although the 97 does have a bit more purpose now that it serves Stratford City.
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Route 69
Aug 29, 2014 16:52:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by Late Again on Aug 29, 2014 16:52:09 GMT
Does anyone know why when the 69 was cut back to Canning Town it wasn't reinstated back to Chingford Station at the other end & the 97 withdrawn?After all the 97 & the 269 before it were only introduced to replace the 69 between Walthamstow & Chingford. It was cut back because of the 474. Which was rerouted to serve city airport back in Dec 2005 when the Dlr extension to King George V opened. And of course the reason why the 69 was cut from North Woolwich was because of the 474 in the first place in May 1999.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 29, 2014 18:19:54 GMT
Does anyone know why when the 69 was cut back to Canning Town it wasn't reinstated back to Chingford Station at the other end & the 97 withdrawn?After all the 97 & the 269 before it were only introduced to replace the 69 between Walthamstow & Chingford. While I agree there has been some faffing about with the 69 and 97 I would leave them alone nowadays. We are back to the age old boring debate about sectional working - that's how the old combined 69 worked. You didn't get a mega frequent service from Canning Town to Chingford. Over time the 69 became much busier than the 97 which meant it gained extra buses in the peak. Nonetheless the provision of a bus starting close to Leyton Station was very valuable given the vast numbers waiting for n/b buses at the location at peak times. The fact that in the past it was a 69 and later a 97 was probably irrelevant to people other than needing to check the blinds on the bus for the final destination. At least different numbers makes it clear to people. The extension to Stratford City and the improved daily frequency has really boosted patronage on the 97. Patronage went up 23.8% and then 11.6% after the extension started. Therefore I would leave the 97 alone as a separate service. If patronage keeps climbing then more buses will be needed.
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Post by Trident on Aug 29, 2014 19:20:06 GMT
Does anyone know why when the 69 was cut back to Canning Town it wasn't reinstated back to Chingford Station at the other end & the 97 withdrawn?After all the 97 & the 269 before it were only introduced to replace the 69 between Walthamstow & Chingford. The 97, takes over an hour from Stratford City - Chingford and imo has got slower with the increased running time and more buses on the road. Not worth sending the 69 north of Walthamstow, as I feel reliability will suffer.
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Post by routew15 on Aug 29, 2014 21:08:35 GMT
Although it's a long way off, if the Silvertown Tunnel can allow DDs to pass through, could the 69 be extended to North Greenwich?
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Post by vjaska on Aug 30, 2014 1:41:04 GMT
Even before the 97 was extended to Stratford City, it was already a very busy route so I fail to see why it should be withdrawn to allow the 69 to go north of Walthamstow.
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Post by thesquirrels on Aug 30, 2014 8:41:38 GMT
Agree with Trident, a quick look at the tt's on LBR suggests a combined 69/97 from Canning Town to Chingford would have a running time of about 100 minutes in the peaks. Getting it through traffic in Stratford, Leyton, Walthamstow and over the A406 would prove too much for it to be run reliably, I reckon. And I do think the current sections reflect demand over the various stretches pretty well.
I think the routine bus siege at Leyton Station might die down a bit when Stratford is rezoned - some will see the chance to save on the price of a travelcard zone and transfer to buses at Stratford.
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Post by mondraker275 on Aug 30, 2014 9:15:12 GMT
Agree with Trident, a quick look at the tt's on LBR suggests a combined 69/97 from Canning Town to Chingford would have a running time of about 100 minutes in the peaks. Getting it through traffic in Stratford, Leyton, Walthamstow and over the A406 would prove too much for it to be run reliably, I reckon. And I do think the current sections reflect demand over the various stretches pretty well. I think the routine bus siege at Leyton Station might die down a bit when Stratford is rezoned - some will see the chance to save on the price of a travelcard zone and transfer to buses at Stratford. The 97 really only suffers getting through Walthamstow Central, beginning at Hoe Street and going round the station and out, could take more than 10 minutes. I dont see any other places this bus gets held up, maybe approaching Leyton Station at peaks. 97 also suffers from increasing time spent at bus stops. 69, great, reliable route keep it as it is!
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Post by snoggle on Aug 30, 2014 9:29:15 GMT
Agree with Trident, a quick look at the tt's on LBR suggests a combined 69/97 from Canning Town to Chingford would have a running time of about 100 minutes in the peaks. Getting it through traffic in Stratford, Leyton, Walthamstow and over the A406 would prove too much for it to be run reliably, I reckon. And I do think the current sections reflect demand over the various stretches pretty well. I think the routine bus siege at Leyton Station might die down a bit when Stratford is rezoned - some will see the chance to save on the price of a travelcard zone and transfer to buses at Stratford. The problem with that is that it will more likely overload the 97 than the 69 because of the walk from the Broadway for the latter (for jnys into Zone 1). Your observation about railheading via a rezoned Stratford is a good one though and may have some unexpected consequences for the bus network. It may undermine any assumptions TfL will have about thinning out the 25 and 86 when Crossrail opens because, as you say, people will be keen to save money and thus will overwhelm Stratford and buses linking to it. The ability to reduce journey times with Crossrail means some people will trade a shorter rail journey for a longer connecting bus ride and still have the same overall commute time. You won't actually solve the bus jam at Leyton - you'll change its direction with lots more people overloading buses into Stratford rather than getting off at Leyton in the AM peak people will stay on the bus! It could be serious for the 69 because there is already very high demand along Leytonstone High Road into Maryland and Stratford.
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Route 69
Aug 30, 2014 10:07:59 GMT
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 30, 2014 10:07:59 GMT
Why would people that want stops after Leyton (towards walthamstow) get off at Stratford?
First they'll have the scramble to get on buses at Stratford then sit on a bus all the extra time it takes to get to leyton.
Also both routes suffer in the peaks on the approach to Leyton then hoe street and then the 97 in Walthamstow central the approach to the bell and the approach to the mount and at weekends Chingford mount road is gridlocked.
69 from canning town to Chingford would never work reliably.
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Post by thesquirrels on Aug 30, 2014 10:45:39 GMT
Why would people that want stops after Leyton (towards walthamstow) get off at Stratford? For the same reasons people heading towards Tottenham (and even Edmonton, IME) pile off the tube at Manor House and sit on a 259/279 for half an hour plus. Seven Sisters is the more obvious railhead, but people evidently see the cost saving of a z12 travelcard vs a 1-3 as worth the trouble. You can see the proof every day along that stretch. There are enough demographic similarities between Tottenham and Leyton/stone to make me think the same thing will happen in east London next year. Money is money.
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Post by routew15 on Aug 30, 2014 11:02:46 GMT
People (espically at peak hours) are looking at ways to save money on their fares. By train, A Zone 1 - 2 season ticket is £1,256 but a Zone 1 - 3 season ticket is £1,472 (that's a difference of £216) to some commutes a saving a is a saving no matter how small it is. A return from the station to home via the bus is an additional £2.90 x 5 (working days) = £14.50
From my observations there are several different types of commuters, the three main ones are: • Direct commuters - they travel from Zone 1 right out to the precise destination/zone they need • Zone 2 commuters - these commuters start their journeys in Zone 1 by bus departing the bus at a train station in zone 2 then getting the train to their precise destination (some of these commuters continue into Zone 3 & 4) • Zone 1 commuters - these commuters are the reverse of the Zone 2 commuters, because they travel to the edge of Zone 2 from zone 1 by train then switch to bus, these commuters are the ones that will now travel to Stratford when previously they used to travel to Mile End.
Nonetheless my point is some people will not be bothered by scrambling for a bus (once they eventually get one (cause when it boils down to it everyone eventually gets a bus from Leyton) as long as they can get a cheaper overall fare.
Although I personally would not be happy to sit or stand in the (peak hours) traffic from Stratford to Leyton.
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Post by Hassaan on Aug 30, 2014 14:04:17 GMT
People (espically at peak hours) are looking at ways to save money on their fares. By train, A Zone 1 - 2 season ticket is £1,256 but a Zone 1 - 3 season ticket is £1,472 (that's a difference of £216) to some commutes a saving a is a saving no matter how small it is. A return from the station to home via the bus is an additional £2.90 x 5 (working days) = £14.50 From my observations there are several different types of commuters, the three main ones are: • Direct commuters - they travel from Zone 1 right out to the precise destination/zone they need • Zone 2 commuters - these commuters start their journeys in Zone 1 by bus departing the bus at a train station in zone 2 then getting the train to their precise destination (some of these commuters continue into Zone 3 & 4) • Zone 1 commuters - these commuters are the reverse of the Zone 2 commuters, because they travel to the edge of Zone 2 from zone 1 by train then switch to bus, these commuters are the ones that will now travel to Stratford when previously they used to travel to Mile End. Nonetheless my point is some people will not be bothered by scrambling for a bus (once they eventually get one (cause when it boils down to it everyone eventually gets a bus from Leyton) as long as they can get a cheaper overall fare.
Although I personally would not be happy to sit or stand in the (peak hours) traffic from Stratford to Leyton. With a Travelcard Zones season ticket, bus travel anywhere in London is included, so the additional £14.50 is not needed . Same example probably happens in other areas. Richmond is in Zone 4, people might use buses to Twickenham (Zone 5) and Kingston/Teddington/Fulwell/Hampton (Zone 6). A Z1-4 annual is £1800, Z1-5 is £2136, and Z1-6 is £2288. Kew Bridge, Gunnersbury and North Sheen are in Zone 3, people might use buses to Richmond/Brentford/Isleworth (Zone 4) or Hounslow (Zone 4 if using Tube, Zone 5 on SWT or Hounslow West). A Z1-3 annual is £1492, Z1-4 is £1800, a hefty jump. I do know that quite a lot of people board the H91 at Hammersmith or Gunnersbury and travel to Lampton Corner for Hounslow and surrounding areas. Hammersmith is in Zone 2 so saves even more money (£1256), and Hammersmith>Lampton Corner can be done in 30-40 minutes (about 15-20 taken getting to Gunnersbury, the run down the A4 is quite fast). Then there is also the people leaving the Piccadilly Line at Hounslow East (Zone 4) and walking down to the bus station for buses to Hounslow West (Zone 5). Then more extreme examples like Putney and East Putney on the Z2/3 boundary. People for Roehampton, Barnes (Zone 3), Norbiton (Zone 5) and Kingston (Zone 6) among many other areas can take buses from there. The 85 has an excellent journey time. A lot of people alight at Putney in the evening peak, and the 1722 departure from Waterloo (for Weybridge via Hounslow) is very busy because of the amount of people going to Putney. It is one of the very few SWT trains left booked as only 4 coaches in the evening peak. And that is before we get to more extreme examples of places just outside the Oyster zones, like Esher, Claygate, Staines, Ashford, Epsom, Sunbury, Merstham, Redhill, who might get a Z1-6 (£2288) and use bus rather than including the extra bit to their station. This could be £2596 for Epsom>Z1-6 (the lowest out of those mentioned) or as much as £3352 for Redhill>Z1-6. Save over £1000 by using the 405 to Coulsdon South!
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