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Post by snoggle on Dec 13, 2014 0:12:15 GMT
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Post by rambo on Dec 13, 2014 1:01:16 GMT
Interesting read.
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Post by mondraker275 on Dec 13, 2014 9:49:36 GMT
Good Read, , my favorite part: Dawdling: "I’m sure you know the kind of thing: driving slowly; stopping at every stop whether there’s anyone there or not; timing one’s departure from a stop to catch the traffic lights changing to red; slowing down at lights whilst praying for them to change to red, sometimes doing an emergency stop on a late yellow. "  |
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Post by rambo on Dec 13, 2014 11:08:16 GMT
Good Read, , my favorite part: Dawdling: "I’m sure you know the kind of thing: driving slowly; stopping at every stop whether there’s anyone there or not; timing one’s departure from a stop to catch the traffic lights changing to red; slowing down at lights whilst praying for them to change to red, sometimes doing an emergency stop on a late yellow. " On the flipside; If he missed a bus because it was early, he would moan about that. If I'm running early, I ALWAYS tell the passengers why we are waiting. "folks, we are being held here for X minutes as we are a bit early, very quiet on the roads today". |
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Post by danorak on Dec 13, 2014 12:29:54 GMT
The bus map is something I've pondered myself recently. Overall, I think it's pretty good and I certainly wouldn't say there was any need for a total rethink. I agree that hail and ride sections should be indicated and the interface with central London could be better, although this has always been an issue. The geographical accuracy seems to have improved slightly in recent years. If anything, I would suggest TfL is trying to include too much information - there has been an increase in the number of 'non-bus roads' included, there are a lot of enlargements and I'm unconvinced of the need to include the London Loop. I don't have a problem with paper quality: London bus maps have always dissolved under heavy use and the quality is much better than it used to be.
Something that I feel needs to be looked at is how 24 hour routes are represented. By putting them in blue, it gives them the same visual impact as an hourly night bus. OK perhaps if you're travelling at 3am but unhelpful during the day. I would suggest a tweak whereby 24 hour routes are in black, 'ordinary' routes are in red and N-routes remain in blue. Routes only running at certain times - which are relatively few nowadays - could be 'Hammersmith and City' pink or 'Overground' orange, or even use the dagger symbol.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 13, 2014 15:04:09 GMT
Some good points but I felt it was a tad too on the moaning side. Why not also state the good things about the bus network of which there are plenty?
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Post by snoggle on Dec 13, 2014 18:22:10 GMT
Some good points but I felt it was a tad too on the moaning side. Why not also state the good things about the bus network of which there are plenty? He does say more than once that the network is "quite good". The original intent was to create an article using statistics to show the network was much better than several decades ago but finding the stats has been a struggle. Clearly Mr Horne feels strongly about some of the things he's experienced but I think that's true for many people. I actually think one of the underlying things that is "winding him up" is inconsistent practice - the fact that one driver does one thing in a given set of circumstances and another driver does something completely different and it's not clear which one is obeying the rules or even what the rules are. One that point I think we would all agree because we all see widely differing practice when we travel. |
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Post by vjaska on Dec 14, 2014 3:48:27 GMT
Some good points but I felt it was a tad too on the moaning side. Why not also state the good things about the bus network of which there are plenty? He does say more than once that the network is "quite good". The original intent was to create an article using statistics to show the network was much better than several decades ago but finding the stats has been a struggle. Clearly Mr Horne feels strongly about some of the things he's experienced but I think that's true for many people. I actually think one of the underlying things that is "winding him up" is inconsistent practice - the fact that one driver does one thing in a given set of circumstances and another driver does something completely different and it's not clear which one is obeying the rules or even what the rules are. One that point I think we would all agree because we all see widely differing practice when we travel. Personally, saying 'quite good' doesn't reflect how good our bus network currently is. It's far from perfect but at the same time, it could be a hell of a lot worse. |
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Post by westhamgeezer on Dec 15, 2014 0:22:00 GMT
Just a few points from this:
1. I thought that all bus stops were now compulsory (as so far as if there are people waiting there the bus should stop) As far as I was aware, request stops are gradually being replaced by non-request stops (this has happened over the last year to a few stops local to me) although information about this change has been lacking. Is this the policy???
2. I agree with the point about the diversions, are buses supposed to stop at stops along a diversion or not?
3. With the dawdling, this can be infuriating, but the bus is going to get there at the time it advertises, so you are not losing. One point I would make is the problems in timetabling. When my local route got taken over by a new operator, the service became unreliable with lots of curtailing. Obvious to try and remedy this, within a few months around 10 mins was added to the schedule. Fine and appropriate at rush hours, but I regularly use one of the buses around midnight when the roads are clear and its obvious that there is far too much running time on these journeys. That is frustrating.
4. With regards to curtailing, again I do think what is said was right with regards to the lack of information. Not so long ago, I had cause to use a route that was scheduled to run every 20 mins. After waiting half an hour plus, a bus turned up but curtailed. I got on regardless, and we went on. As we passed the garage, a bus came out of service and followed. Intending passengers were told that the bus was curtailing and so did not board. On arriving at the curtailment point we were kicked off and the driver said he didn't know when the next bus would be. Anyway the bus that had followed and sat behind us where we were curtailed suddenly started up, set the route and destination of the terminus, and it was only by luck that I had half suspected this that I was able to board. A lot of people didn't know that this was continuing the route and were left stranded (along with the people who had been waiting earlier on in the route) It was this lack of basic communication that is so simple to remedy and would have helped countless people.
5. I rarely use hail and ride services, but am actually surprised that they still exist. I think that the new iBus announcements of when you are entering a hail and ride area are helpful
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Post by snoggle on Dec 15, 2014 12:44:35 GMT
Just a few points from this: 1. I thought that all bus stops were now compulsory (as so far as if there are people waiting there the bus should stop) As far as I was aware, request stops are gradually being replaced by non-request stops (this has happened over the last year to a few stops local to me) although information about this change has been lacking. Is this the policy??? 2. I agree with the point about the diversions, are buses supposed to stop at stops along a diversion or not? 3. With the dawdling, this can be infuriating, but the bus is going to get there at the time it advertises, so you are not losing. One point I would make is the problems in timetabling. When my local route got taken over by a new operator, the service became unreliable with lots of curtailing. Obvious to try and remedy this, within a few months around 10 mins was added to the schedule. Fine and appropriate at rush hours, but I regularly use one of the buses around midnight when the roads are clear and its obvious that there is far too much running time on these journeys. That is frustrating. 4. With regards to curtailing, again I do think what is said was right with regards to the lack of information. Not so long ago, I had cause to use a route that was scheduled to run every 20 mins. After waiting half an hour plus, a bus turned up but curtailed. I got on regardless, and we went on. As we passed the garage, a bus came out of service and followed. Intending passengers were told that the bus was curtailing and so did not board. On arriving at the curtailment point we were kicked off and the driver said he didn't know when the next bus would be. Anyway the bus that had followed and sat behind us where we were curtailed suddenly started up, set the route and destination of the terminus, and it was only by luck that I had half suspected this that I was able to board. A lot of people didn't know that this was continuing the route and were left stranded (along with the people who had been waiting earlier on in the route) It was this lack of basic communication that is so simple to remedy and would have helped countless people. 5. I rarely use hail and ride services, but am actually surprised that they still exist. I think that the new iBus announcements of when you are entering a hail and ride area are helpful A few answers based on what I believe is the official position. 1. There is no distinction between compulsory and request stops. Drivers should stop / be prepared to stop at any bus stop where a person is waiting. Even if the person does not hail the bus they should stop because the person may be blind. To alight passengers should ring the bell once. You are right that the policy change, which was consulted on years ago, has never been widely publicised. The blog does have a picture of the info from the bus map which explains the bus stop issue and that's the only place I've seen it on TfL public documents. I think the policy is explained in the Big Red Book too and that's downloadable from the Transport for All website. 2. Buses should stop at all stops on planned diversions. I believe drivers do not have to stop at stops on an emergency diversion but most will where it is sensible or safe. 3. I think the "dawdle" issue is difficult because you need a balance between a regularly attainable journey time that can cope with varying conditions and which doesn't screw up the operator's performance and its payments from TfL. Bluntly that is what will determine what is set out in the schedule and PVR. Having very tight run times, even in the evenings, can be a curse as drivers spend the whole night chasing their tails if only the slightest thing goes wrong - more passengers than usual, delays spilling over from the evening peak, road traffic accident, unexpected road works. It's really hard to get the balance right because London's traffic can be very unpredictable. 4. I agree that much more can be done to deal with the sort of situation you wrote about. I've recently had long waits in Ilford for a 123 home and then when one turned up found buses being curtailed at Gants Hill. Given there are loads of buses from Ilford to Gants Hill it would have been good to have had a message saying what was going on and at least suggesting people go to Gants Hill for a more frequent connection. I didn't have my phone with me so I couldn't check LVF or web Countdown to suss out what was happening. 5. Hail and Ride information is a mess and has been for ages. I think TfL are slowly trying to deal with this but they need to up the speed of change so that all routes have common provision. We have several Hail and Ride sections in Waltham Forest and they're basically a good idea but if you were a stranger to the area then you'd be clueless as to where buses stop or run. The W15 is Hail and Ride on the Cogan Avenue loop but you will never find a spider map that shows this. I had to take a ride on a W15 to confirm actually what happens on that loop working. The W11 through Priory Court stops at about 7 regular spots but there are no timetable panels on "mini stops" or lamp posts anywhere so a non local would be clueless that a bus ran that way unless they saw one driving along the road. That's at odds with TfL policy in other parts of London. I think TfL would like Hail and Ride abolished but I can't see that happening at all. I have a hail and ride spreadsheet that I created but I've no way of knowing if it is correct even though someone gave me an "under the counter" copy of a TfL document which is allegedly the definitive document but I know that's not correct! Presentation of hail and ride on Spider Maps is also inconsistent and sometimes only appears on a map close to the hail and ride section itself where the stop density is higher on the Spider Map shaded area. |
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