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Post by sid on Apr 23, 2015 17:53:10 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Apr 23, 2015 18:27:28 GMT
I don't really see that the Overground [1], apart from the crowding levels [2], is in urgent need of "being put in order". South Eastern? - err it's hardly marvellous and it has a dire reputation and appalling customer satisfaction ratings. Has a single thing changed for the better since the Direct Award extended franchise started? Any word on Oyster being extended to Dartford or to Swanley or on HS1 KX - Stratford? Not a sausage. Has the Rail Minister, contrary to her explicit public promises, replied to a single tweet of feedback on the new SE franchise? Nope - I'm still waiting to hear from her (as are other rail user groups in SE territory). I have yet to encounter any directly employed TfL revenue inspector who resembles the gestapo. Bus revenue staff are also decent IME. Regrettably some TOCs, including LOROL, do employ external security contractors to do revenue duties and I find them far less polite and rather more threatening. There's obviously something of a political context to Mr Hendy's remarks and it's not exactly unknown for him to say somewhat provocative things. The full article, which is worth reading, says rather more than what is being reported in the newspapers. Clearly the Underground needs attention on some lines and the SSR resignalling is a dreadful mess that really should have been avoided. We do have extra funding going into the buses and cycling, to deal with known issues, which I expect you would support. [1] I've referred to Overground as it's the closest comparable service to TOC suburban services. [2] And 378s are being extended and the GOBLIN is to be electrified with longer trains and will gain an extension (hopefully). There are also plans for more trains on the NLL and ELL once stock can be cascaded. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2015 21:02:48 GMT
What do you mean by that exactly? Of the 30+ I've encountered, just about all of them have done a good job and yes I've seen them interact with passengers. |
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Post by ohdear on Apr 23, 2015 21:16:58 GMT
Can someone remind me exactly what it was Hendy got his Knighthood for.
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Post by sid on Apr 23, 2015 21:43:02 GMT
I don't really see that the Overground [1], apart from the crowding levels [2], is in urgent need of "being put in order". South Eastern? - err it's hardly marvellous and it has a dire reputation and appalling customer satisfaction ratings. Has a single thing changed for the better since the Direct Award extended franchise started? Any word on Oyster being extended to Dartford or to Swanley or on HS1 KX - Stratford? Not a sausage. Has the Rail Minister, contrary to her explicit public promises, replied to a single tweet of feedback on the new SE franchise? Nope - I'm still waiting to hear from her (as are other rail user groups in SE territory). I have yet to encounter any directly employed TfL revenue inspector who resembles the gestapo. Bus revenue staff are also decent IME. Regrettably some TOCs, including LOROL, do employ external security contractors to do revenue duties and I find them far less polite and rather more threatening. There's obviously something of a political context to Mr Hendy's remarks and it's not exactly unknown for him to say somewhat provocative things. The full article, which is worth reading, says rather more than what is being reported in the newspapers. Clearly the Underground needs attention on some lines and the SSR resignalling is a dreadful mess that really should have been avoided. We do have extra funding going into the buses and cycling, to deal with known issues, which I expect you would support. [1] I've referred to Overground as it's the closest comparable service to TOC suburban services. [2] And 378s are being extended and the GOBLIN is to be electrified with longer trains and will gain an extension (hopefully). There are also plans for more trains on the NLL and ELL once stock can be cascaded. I found his comments cheap and tacky, even including an expletive, and of course we all know that he would like to expand the TfL empire. South Eastern trains may not be perfect but I can't see how TfL could do any better given that much of the network is at full capacity. I agree that oyster should be extended to Dartford and possibly Swanley but on HS1 between St Pancras and Stratford? Surely that would be like expecting Virgin Trains to accommodate local passengers between Euston and Watford Junction? And it would appear that anybody can travel on LU, 'forget' to validate their oyster and then claim a refund when they touch out and get charged for an incomplete journey. |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 23, 2015 22:56:02 GMT
I don't really see that the Overground [1], apart from the crowding levels [2], is in urgent need of "being put in order". South Eastern? - err it's hardly marvellous and it has a dire reputation and appalling customer satisfaction ratings. Has a single thing changed for the better since the Direct Award extended franchise started? Any word on Oyster being extended to Dartford or to Swanley or on HS1 KX - Stratford? Not a sausage. Has the Rail Minister, contrary to her explicit public promises, replied to a single tweet of feedback on the new SE franchise? Nope - I'm still waiting to hear from her (as are other rail user groups in SE territory). I have yet to encounter any directly employed TfL revenue inspector who resembles the gestapo. Bus revenue staff are also decent IME. Regrettably some TOCs, including LOROL, do employ external security contractors to do revenue duties and I find them far less polite and rather more threatening. There's obviously something of a political context to Mr Hendy's remarks and it's not exactly unknown for him to say somewhat provocative things. The full article, which is worth reading, says rather more than what is being reported in the newspapers. Clearly the Underground needs attention on some lines and the SSR resignalling is a dreadful mess that really should have been avoided. We do have extra funding going into the buses and cycling, to deal with known issues, which I expect you would support. [1] I've referred to Overground as it's the closest comparable service to TOC suburban services. [2] And 378s are being extended and the GOBLIN is to be electrified with longer trains and will gain an extension (hopefully). There are also plans for more trains on the NLL and ELL once stock can be cascaded. I found his comments cheap and tacky, even including an expletive, and of course we all know that he would like to expand the TfL empire. South Eastern trains may not be perfect but I can't see how TfL could do any better given that much of the network is at full capacity. I agree that oyster should be extended to Dartford and possibly Swanley but on HS1 between St Pancras and Stratford? Surely that would be like expecting Virgin Trains to accommodate local passengers between Euston and Watford Junction? And it would appear that anybody can travel on LU, 'forget' to validate their oyster and then claim a refund when they touch out and get charged for an incomplete journey. The HS1 commitment is from South Eastern themselves so why the complete silence / lack of progress about it? I don't think South Eastern's network is full to capacity on evenings and Sundays when services could readily be doubled and longer trains run. I've read endless comments from people who rely on South Eastern who complain about inadequate evening services and short formation trains which are packed to capacity on Sunday afternoons. It doesn't take much to run extra off peak services to give people a reasonable service. The first thing LOROL are doing on West Anglia is to increase Sunday frequencies to match those on Saturdays. That's a decent first step. To be fair TfL are reflecting what the Mayor, commuters, London politicans and London businesses want - they want TfL to take on suburban services because they are not being run properly. TfL are there to do the Mayor's bidding and it has been Boris's policy since 2008 to take over suburban services. Therefore the Empire building accusation should be levelled at City Hall and politicians of all hues because all three main parties support the same policy. Also TfL have made no outrageous statements about peak services if they were to take on South Eastern. They have acknowledged that running extra trains would be very difficult and they could not "evict" longer distance trains from the tracks because access rights are determined independently. They have said they would buy extra trains to ensure peak trains run to the maximum feasible length so capacity is utilised as well as it could be. That's better than South Eastern manage because there has been no commitment from them or Government to buy extra trains despite years of growing patronage. I trust you have some experience / evidence to substantiate your remark about TfL processing refunds. |
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Post by Connor on Apr 23, 2015 23:19:06 GMT
Speaking of short train formations, Southeastern very recently started to introduce some 12 car services. Some on the Sidcup Line and some on the North Kent Line but none on the Bexleyheath line, which is according to their statistics the busiest out of the three!  Also worth mentioning Victoria - Dartford services now run until midnight (they would only run until 20:00-was like this until last year) as well as introducing a Saturday/certain Sunday service, so I can't say I'm appalled by them, they are okay I guess. I'd like the introduction of more limited stop services across the SE network, the addition of air conditioning to the 376's (the only modern rolling stock to omit it) and a proper internal refurbishment to the 376's and particularly the 465's (practically the same interior as they had when introduced just under 25 years ago). Addition of PIS and refresh of seat covers is not good enough!  Go Sir Peter Hendy!!!  |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 24, 2015 6:28:55 GMT
Speaking of short train formations, Southeastern very recently started to introduce some 12 car services. Some on the Sidcup Line and some on the North Kent Line but none on the Bexleyheath line, which is according to their statistics the busiest out of the three! Also worth mentioning Victoria - Dartford services now run until midnight (they would only run until 20:00-was like this until last year) as well as introducing a Saturday/certain Sunday service, so I can't say I'm appalled by them, they are okay I guess. I'd like the introduction of more limited stop services across the SE network, the addition of air conditioning to the 376's (the only modern rolling stock to omit it) and a proper internal refurbishment to the 376's and particularly the 465's (practically the same interior as they had when introduced just under 25 years ago). Addition of PIS and refresh of seat covers is not good enough! Go Sir Peter Hendy!!! I'm aware that the timetable has been tweaked as have train formations in order to cope with the consequences of the London Bridge works. The timetable has been massively padded out to try to ensure trains run broadly "to time" on the more limited / more congested infrastructure at certain places. I understand the Lewisham - Victoria service is about the only positive that people have spotted in the new timetable. Watch what happens come 2018 when the post Thameslink works timetable kicks in and there's a probable attempt to revert to the old level of service. This is because South Eastern won't have enough trains in place because none are being ordered now to provide a better service then. Still South Eastern's franchise is up for renewal then and with a bit of luck TfL will get the suburban services and some demonstrable improvements can start to be delivered. The main problem is that no one in government seems to know what is actually happening to travel demand on those lines nor are they interested in making the franchise deliver more than a basic commuting service and minimal off peak regime. TfL have shown with the Tube, DLR and now Overground that a decent level of off peak service can pull in the passengers and gets "bums on seats" rather than transporting thin air. At one level there is a lot that can be done to improve South Eastern's suburban services. Going beyond that will get difficult because there are some notorious pinch points like Lewisham, Herne Hill, Dartford etc where lack of platforms and junction capacity impose genuine constraints. |
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Post by TA1 on Apr 24, 2015 6:44:22 GMT
I don't really see that the Overground [1], apart from the crowding levels [2], is in urgent need of "being put in order". South Eastern? - err it's hardly marvellous and it has a dire reputation and appalling customer satisfaction ratings. Has a single thing changed for the better since the Direct Award extended franchise started? Any word on Oyster being extended to Dartford or to Swanley or on HS1 KX - Stratford? Not a sausage. Has the Rail Minister, contrary to her explicit public promises, replied to a single tweet of feedback on the new SE franchise? Nope - I'm still waiting to hear from her (as are other rail user groups in SE territory). I have yet to encounter any directly employed TfL revenue inspector who resembles the gestapo. Bus revenue staff are also decent IME. Regrettably some TOCs, including LOROL, do employ external security contractors to do revenue duties and I find them far less polite and rather more threatening. There's obviously something of a political context to Mr Hendy's remarks and it's not exactly unknown for him to say somewhat provocative things. The full article, which is worth reading, says rather more than what is being reported in the newspapers. Clearly the Underground needs attention on some lines and the SSR resignalling is a dreadful mess that really should have been avoided. We do have extra funding going into the buses and cycling, to deal with known issues, which I expect you would support. [1] I've referred to Overground as it's the closest comparable service to TOC suburban services. [2] And 378s are being extended and the GOBLIN is to be electrified with longer trains and will gain an extension (hopefully). There are also plans for more trains on the NLL and ELL once stock can be cascaded. In response, to your send point. More Trains will come from the Watford DC Line, which temporarily goes up to 5 car before the trains being displaced back to NLL/WLL respectively and the DC Lines receiving brand new trains. - To be honest, I think LOROL should retain the 378's in their 5 car form on DC Lines, in the peak and late evenings services are slightly rammed. I do wonder, Why Hendy has only spoken about SE, when AGA is no better especially with the crippling and daily train faults occurring throughout the network. |
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Post by Connor on Apr 24, 2015 7:33:15 GMT
This is because South Eastern won't have enough trains in place because none are being ordered now to provide a better service then. Southeastern are due to receive 100 Class 377 trains from Southern/Thameslink. I imagine the cascade will only happen after all the 700's are in service, in around 3/4 years. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 24, 2015 9:17:28 GMT
I really hope TfL take over the Southeastern franchise as going by the number of times I've used London Overground, it will improve massively. I can't fault London Overground operation one bit.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 24, 2015 9:51:51 GMT
In response, to your send point. More Trains will come from the Watford DC Line, which temporarily goes up to 5 car before the trains being displaced back to NLL/WLL respectively and the DC Lines receiving brand new trains. - To be honest, I think LOROL should retain the 378's in their 5 car form on DC Lines, in the peak and late evenings services are slightly rammed. I do wonder, Why Hendy has only spoken about SE, when AGA is no better especially with the crippling and daily train faults occurring throughout the network. I think there is a power related issue with 5 cars on the Watford DC route. Clearly that will have to be resolved before new 4 car stock turns up but it may be a "cheap and dirty" fix rather than a more substantive one. I suspect Mr Hendy is being fairly astute in not "bigging up" what LOROL will achieve on West Anglia. Anyone expecting a transformation on 31 May will be disappointed. Even anyone expecting a miracle in 2-3 years is also likely to be disappointed. Yes the stations will be brighter and we may have new trains. However I think boosting service levels substantially is going to be next to impossible and I'm sceptical that Network Rail can really solve the repeated problems with track, signalling and the electrification infrastructure that is noticeably creaking on West Anglia as well as the route to Shenfield. TfL may well pile the pressure on but Network Rail is now subject to DfT direct oversight which is affecting how the organisation performs. It's becoming more and more risk averse and is struggling to deliver works to time and cost. There are already rumours that political inspired change, including possible reprivatisation, is very likely after the general election. That's the last thing anyone needs! Mr Hendy's comments about South Eastern are part of an ongoing pitch to take on all the suburban services south of the Thames. Expect to see far, far more of this over the next 3-4 years as the various franchises come up for renewal. It's also part of a current "narrative" set by others about how appalling suburban services are south of the Thames. For TfL it is absolutely critical that LOROL and MTR deliver a more reliable service post 31 May. If they don't or can't do so then TfL will soon be in the firing line themselves. Many people are not very patient even if TfL haven't oversold what will happen in the early stages. |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 24, 2015 9:53:22 GMT
This is because South Eastern won't have enough trains in place because none are being ordered now to provide a better service then. Southeastern are due to receive 100 Class 377 trains from Southern/Thameslink. I imagine the cascade will only happen after all the 700's are in service, in around 3/4 years. Will they be additional or will South Eastern have to relinquish existing trains to cascade to electrification schemes elsewhere? Genuine question btw - I'm not fully up to speed with what is cascading where as the DfT keep changing things. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 10:01:05 GMT
Sid, I would be interested by what was behind your comment on inspectors. I was hoping for some kind of example for such a strongly worded post.
But yes, I agree that London suburban TOC's aren't providing the most passenger friendly environment! I believe the problem lies with the franchise contracts, DfT does not provide the funding/incentive for staff on all stations and of course the TOC wont pay from its own pocket. So you have this bizarre situation where you have loads of money spent on gatelines that are only operational for a few hours of the day when staff are there. For example, West Hampstead Thameslink got a nice swanky new entrance and gateline with toilet facilities etc a few years ago, but come 22:00 or so, that's closed off and you have to go through this gate on a backstreet because there are no staff.
LO is indeed a model of how to do things (their predecessors were absolutely appalling) but I'm cautious about taking gospel from Peter Sir Hendy as his house may be taking regressive steps in this regard. With the staff cuts on LU, some surface stations (ie those that do not have minimum staffing regulations) may become unstaffed for a some of the day as some do at the moment (the Dagenham stations spring to mind) so whilst I agree with Hendy's sentiments, I wouldn't see TfL as this pillar of railway excellence, as their current stance with ticket offices and staffing is moving away to the contrary!
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Post by sid on Apr 24, 2015 10:13:46 GMT
Sid, I would be interested by what was behind your comment on inspectors. I was hoping for some kind of example for such a strongly worded post. But yes, I agree that London suburban TOC's aren't providing the most passenger friendly environment! I believe the problem lies with the franchise contracts, DfT does not provide the funding/incentive for staff on all stations and of course the TOC wont pay from its own pocket. So you have this bizarre situation where you have loads of money spent on gatelines that are only operational for a few hours of the day when staff are there. For example, West Hampstead Thameslink got a nice swanky new entrance and gateline with toilet facilities etc a few years ago, but come 22:00 or so, that's closed off and you have to go through this gate on a backstreet because there are no staff. LO is indeed a model of how to do things (their predecessors were absolutely appalling) but I'm cautious about taking gospel from Peter Sir Hendy as his house may be taking regressive steps in this regard. With the staff cuts on LU, some surface stations (ie those that do not have minimum staffing regulations) may become unstaffed for a some of the day as some do at the moment (the Dagenham stations spring to mind) so whilst I agree with Hendy's sentiments, I wouldn't see TfL as this pillar of railway excellence, as their current stance with ticket offices and staffing is moving away to the contrary! It was Peter Hendy who refered too "gestapo like inspectors" working for certain TOC's, I simply asked how they differed from the ones employed by TfL. |
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