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Post by snoggle on Oct 4, 2015 9:43:29 GMT
When I was whizzing about in the North East the other week it really hit home as to how dependent bus companies up there are on concessionary travellers. By a very long way the largest share was people using Concessionary Passes. I saw a few school kids on buses in the afternoon but nothing like the volumes you see in London. There weren't many "normal" people of differing ages and apparent wealth levels. What I spotted isn't something that's new - it's been true for years - but it was new to my eyes given I was used to a public transport system up there that in the past was used by a wider cross section of society. Seems everyone who can must drive everywhere.
When using the buses in Havering yesterday I noticed pretty much the same thing. Several buses only really had older people, some teenagers and the odd person in a wheelchair on them. The level of car use was also very high indeed. I know it's simply a fact that the outer boroughs have higher car use but it was quite odd to suddenly realise I'd stumbled across a bit of London that was rather like deregulated land elsewhere. Nearly all of my London bus journeys tend to see a wider spread of people using the buses.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Oct 4, 2015 15:19:30 GMT
When I was whizzing about in the North East the other week it really hit home as to how dependent bus companies up there are on concessionary travellers. By a very long way the largest share was people using Concessionary Passes. I saw a few school kids on buses in the afternoon but nothing like the volumes you see in London. There weren't many "normal" people of differing ages and apparent wealth levels. What I spotted isn't something that's new - it's been true for years - but it was new to my eyes given I was used to a public transport system up there that in the past was used by a wider cross section of society. Seems everyone who can must drive everywhere. When using the buses in Havering yesterday I noticed pretty much the same thing. Several buses only really had older people, some teenagers and the odd person in a wheelchair on them. The level of car use was also very high indeed. I know it's simply a fact that the outer boroughs have higher car use but it was quite odd to suddenly realise I'd stumbled across a bit of London that was rather like deregulated land elsewhere. Nearly all of my London bus journeys tend to see a wider spread of people using the buses. In Havering, only the 5, 86, 296, 66 and 128 get crowded often from my observations. 498 seems to be growing in popularity. Other than that I don't usually see people getting on the buses even in the most residential areas.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 4, 2015 17:05:02 GMT
When I was whizzing about in the North East the other week it really hit home as to how dependent bus companies up there are on concessionary travellers. By a very long way the largest share was people using Concessionary Passes. I saw a few school kids on buses in the afternoon but nothing like the volumes you see in London. There weren't many "normal" people of differing ages and apparent wealth levels. What I spotted isn't something that's new - it's been true for years - but it was new to my eyes given I was used to a public transport system up there that in the past was used by a wider cross section of society. Seems everyone who can must drive everywhere. When using the buses in Havering yesterday I noticed pretty much the same thing. Several buses only really had older people, some teenagers and the odd person in a wheelchair on them. The level of car use was also very high indeed. I know it's simply a fact that the outer boroughs have higher car use but it was quite odd to suddenly realise I'd stumbled across a bit of London that was rather like deregulated land elsewhere. Nearly all of my London bus journeys tend to see a wider spread of people using the buses. In Havering, only the 5, 86, 296, 66 and 128 get crowded often from my observations. 498 seems to be growing in popularity. Other than that I don't usually see people getting on the buses even in the most residential areas. Although low frequency the 499 loads pretty well. I think some of the high loadings may not be in Romford itself. I suspect there may be considerable flows to Rainham for the railway station and to Hornchurch and Elm Park tube stations. There must be a reason why the 165, 252, 365 and 372 are all needed to link into Elm Park tube for example. Not knowing the area I was surprised at the extent of the housing in that area and lots of new houses on the 252.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 4, 2015 20:39:06 GMT
When I was whizzing about in the North East the other week it really hit home as to how dependent bus companies up there are on concessionary travellers. By a very long way the largest share was people using Concessionary Passes. I saw a few school kids on buses in the afternoon but nothing like the volumes you see in London. There weren't many "normal" people of differing ages and apparent wealth levels. What I spotted isn't something that's new - it's been true for years - but it was new to my eyes given I was used to a public transport system up there that in the past was used by a wider cross section of society. Seems everyone who can must drive everywhere. When using the buses in Havering yesterday I noticed pretty much the same thing. Several buses only really had older people, some teenagers and the odd person in a wheelchair on them. The level of car use was also very high indeed. I know it's simply a fact that the outer boroughs have higher car use but it was quite odd to suddenly realise I'd stumbled across a bit of London that was rather like deregulated land elsewhere. Nearly all of my London bus journeys tend to see a wider spread of people using the buses. In Havering, only the 5, 86, 296, 66 and 128 get crowded often from my observations. 498 seems to be growing in popularity. Other than that I don't usually see people getting on the buses even in the most residential areas. Add in the 174, 193, 252, 294 & as 'snoggle' mentioned, the 499 - I've seen all these crowded on many occasions.
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Post by bookd on Oct 7, 2015 23:11:56 GMT
When I visited Durham for a weekend about a year ago I was amazed at the number of taxis lining the streets from early evening - this was not a feature when I lived there a long time ago! This gives rise to a 'chicken and egg' question; do so many people travel by taxi because evening and late night bus services are sparse (and non-existent away from a few trunk routes), or is it the case that bus services are so sparse because everyone prefers to travel by taxi.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 8, 2015 0:05:39 GMT
When I visited Durham for a weekend about a year ago I was amazed at the number of taxis lining the streets from early evening - this was not a feature when I lived there a long time ago! This gives rise to a 'chicken and egg' question; do so many people travel by taxi because evening and late night bus services are sparse (and non-existent away from a few trunk routes), or is it the case that bus services are so sparse because everyone prefers to travel by taxi. I think that's very easy to answer. Post deregulation operators simply dropped evening services on a whole pile of routes. Durham County Council is not very supportive of public transport so services have been left to rot. Once evening buses are gone then that's it in deregulated areas with one notable exception - university towns. There are multiple instances of weekend night buses being run commercially - Nottingham, Oxford, Brighton and even Durham - but this won't stop the taxi trade. They have simply filled the void left by the bus companies giving up and the councils being unwilling / increasingly unable to fund socially necessary services. People don't stop going out at night for leisure, work or educational reasons but it's the taxi trade that caters for them. Even Newcastle upon Tyne which has a strong night time culture and still has evening buses has a ridiculous (IMO) volume of taxis clogging parts of the City Centre. I can only assume the lack of Night Buses (except towards Gateshead and beyond) means that those staying out later than 2300 have no way of getting home so they don't use buses into town because they can't use them home. They have simply moved their travel needs to the taxi trade. Even sillier is the fact that prior to 1986 there were several night routes, all circles, that ran in Newcastle, Gateshead and Sunderland. Now it's only Go North East that provide a couple of night routes. It's not as if there isn't a market in the Newcastle area, there clearly is, but no operator is willing to take a punt and Nexus can't fund such services. Durham's night route runs from Newcastle and I think Arriva run a few late night departures on the X12 to Middlesbrough but that's it. No local late night services to Brandon, Framwellgate Moor or Ferryhill and Darlington. There was the notable example of Corby about 15 years ago where there was virtually no daytime bus service never mind evenings and the taxi trade ruled the roost. Stagecoach then came along and decided to run some "Corbystar" buses and, hey presto, they did reasonably well and the taxis did less well as a result. Looking at the relevant info it doesn't have a stunning network but Stagecoach manage to operate a couple of frequent town services but much of the rest is fairly patchy and evening buses are non existent so I imagine the taxis do well. I think the loss of the steel works caused a massive increase in the numbers of taxi drivers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 7:22:25 GMT
Speaking for the Dartford and Gravesend area, I would say Arriva are in direct competition with local taxi firms. The bus fares are pretty high. It is around £3.80 single from Sutton at Hone to Dartford. Not much change from a tenner for a return. Lots of Temple Hill residents get cabs from Dartford with all their shopping. Asda in Greenhithe has the 455 stopping in a bus only area behind the store, but only runs every hour. Contrast that to taxis pulling up probably up to around 6 an hour doing short trips , mainly young adults with children and lots of shopping.
Back to London boroughs. Richmond borough bus use was transformed by London United upon the era of the Harrier routes. The R70 ( former 270 ) saw a huge rise in passengers, much more popular , spawned much better evening and Sunday use. The area hasn't looked back since in my opinion, in what is a high car ownership borough.
In London generally, it is socially acceptable for young people to use buses / trains . In the Counties, if you haven't learned to drive by 17 , and are still waiting for the bus, you are deemed a "bus w@@@@r" or indeed a train w@@@@r.
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Post by smiler52 on Oct 8, 2015 7:47:39 GMT
the area i live here in Southampton called thonhill we have 3 routes all running every 7 mins giving a total of around 24 buses an hour with first bus the 3 and the bluestar 18 bunching is major problem on them routes with buses running in packs of 3/4 at a time mind you since first have brought in the new service 10 bluestar have lost a lot of passengers not helped by the £5 week ticket on the number 10 but most buses out of peak hours run with only 5 passengers tops due to the number of buses
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Post by vjaska on Oct 8, 2015 12:07:06 GMT
The fact that Lambeth got rid of the taxi rank outside the Ritzy cinema in Brixton tells you how much the taxi service was valued.
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 8, 2015 14:25:33 GMT
The fact that Lambeth got rid of the taxi rank outside the Ritzy cinema in Brixton tells you how much the taxi service was valued. The taxi drivers valued their lives even more. There was a spate of cabbies sitting on the being robbed by the local low life, hence no cabbies would use the rank. When I lived in Somerleyton Road, if you said 'Brixton' to a cabbie, they laughed at you. Had to say 'Loughborough Junction' to get anywhere near home.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 8, 2015 15:05:06 GMT
The fact that Lambeth got rid of the taxi rank outside the Ritzy cinema in Brixton tells you how much the taxi service was valued. The taxi drivers valued their lives even more. There was a spate of cabbies sitting on the being robbed by the local low life, hence no cabbies would use the rank. When I lived in Somerleyton Road, if you said 'Brixton' to a cabbie, they laughed at you. Had to say 'Loughborough Junction' to get anywhere near home. Fast forward to today and the yuppies who are swarming into the area would most likely wish that taxi rank is still there lol.
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 8, 2015 15:16:33 GMT
The taxi drivers valued their lives even more. There was a spate of cabbies sitting on the being robbed by the local low life, hence no cabbies would use the rank. When I lived in Somerleyton Road, if you said 'Brixton' to a cabbie, they laughed at you. Had to say 'Loughborough Junction' to get anywhere near home. Fast forward to today and the yuppies who are swarming into the area would most likely wish that taxi rank is still there lol. Have they 're-named' the area yet? When the red braces and gel brigade 'discovered' South London, Clapham became 'Claam'(as in Calm), Battersea became either 'South Chelsea' or 'Battasia', and Streatham became 'St. Reatham'
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Post by snoggle on Oct 8, 2015 17:37:12 GMT
Fast forward to today and the yuppies who are swarming into the area would most likely wish that taxi rank is still there lol. Have they 're-named' the area yet? When the red braces and gel brigade 'discovered' South London, Clapham became 'Claam'(as in Calm), Battersea became either 'South Chelsea' or 'Battasia', and Streatham became 'St. Reatham' I believe it's now Bricks-Tarn which conjures up a pleasant image of a small brick structure in the wilds of the countryside.
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Post by bn12cny on Oct 8, 2015 20:53:15 GMT
Up north it is so expensive to use the bus, I have a friend drives the 555 from Lancaster - Keswick via Kendal and the fare from Lancaster to Kendal is £7.50 whilst from Windermere to Kendal it is around £4.65 and the train is cheaper!!! Don't pay on the train on the way back, can't buy a ticket at Kendal station and ticket inspector don't come through!!!;;
I am in the lake district normally once a week due to my touring work and sometimes get a day off in the lakes so I go out and around on the local stagecoach buses, try a bus to Coniston or Hawkshead, that is true driving the buses or a life line but they are being out priced due to freedom passes etc!!!
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Post by snoggle on Oct 8, 2015 21:32:16 GMT
Up north it is so expensive to use the bus, I have a friend drives the 555 from Lancaster - Keswick via Kendal and the fare from Lancaster to Kendal is £7.50 whilst from Windermere to Kendal it is around £4.65 and the train is cheaper!!! Don't pay on the train on the way back, can't buy a ticket at Kendal station and ticket inspector don't come through!!!;; I am in the lake district normally once a week due to my touring work and sometimes get a day off in the lakes so I go out and around on the local stagecoach buses, try a bus to Coniston or Hawkshead, that is true driving the buses or a life line but they are being out priced due to freedom passes etc!!! Stagecoach Cumbria are expensive but the services aren't bad given the relatively sparse resident population. Obviously the tourist influx helps sustain better services in the Summer period. The County Council have been forced, through spending cuts, to remove almost all subsidy and a lot of services have been lost. The fundamental issue is do you have relatively expensive fares but still have a service or do you have lower fares but barely any service for anyone to use? There's no great scope for competition so deregulation doesn't really work in most of Cumbria (Carlisle has been an exception) so Stagecoach is dominant. It's not an easy problem to fix when there's no money to fund something better or "fairer".
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