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Post by galwhv69 on Jan 24, 2019 23:10:18 GMT
Replace the stuck 710 in the sidings with Brexit and you've got Theresa May with no option of getting out of the mess herself lol The 2 diesels from the Thomas the Tank Engine quarry would get the job done though!. The naughty trucks seem just like the Pacer trains or even the 315 SeN's
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Post by vjaska on Jan 24, 2019 23:11:43 GMT
In today's society, more like the Thin Controller who was also a character from Thomas The Tank - for those who don't know, from memory, he was in charge of the Narrow Gauge engines in the books (the TV series had the Fat Controller in charge instead). The Thin controller also did make appearances in the TV series, when the narrow gauge engines made an appearance. Ah right, always only ever saw the Fat Controller with the narrow gauge engines - cheers
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Post by galwhv69 on Jan 24, 2019 23:11:57 GMT
Why don't we go back to speaking about the Goblin now? Unless someone wants me to open up a thread for Thomas The Tank Engine lol
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 25, 2019 11:40:12 GMT
Why don't we go back to speaking about the Goblin now? Unless someone wants me to open up a thread for Thomas The Tank Engine lol Good idea I'll kick this off by saying I've seen on Twitter that 378232 is going to enter service on Monday to replace the lost 172. Users of the Goblin will also get a month's free travel when the trains arrive. EDIT: Here's the tweet
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Post by snowman on Jan 25, 2019 11:47:04 GMT
Apparenty (from another forum) the 4 car 378 will start Monday 28th starting with 0648 from Barking and 0735 Gospel Oak return TfL Press Release And Bombardier will be funding a months free travel when the new trains are in service (sounds like a Goblin station will be good place to buy your Travelcard
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Post by snoggle on Jan 25, 2019 12:05:08 GMT
Apparenty (from another forum) the 4 car 378 will start Monday 28th starting with 0648 from Barking and 0735 Gospel Oak return TfL Press Release And Bombardier will be funding a months free travel when the new trains are in service (sounds like a Goblin station will be good place to buy your Travelcard Well I am surprised by this move and quite happy to have my abject cynicism proved wrong for once. Still concerning that we might end up back with a x30 headway service by March if the 710s are not ready. That's a pretty dire prospect as that's back to the bad old days of Silverlink / North London Railways even if it will be 4 car units. Having only 3 EMUs gives zero flexibility for breakdowns if we get to that point. Also there's no maintenance / breakdown cover from now until such time as Bombardier can actually get 4 class 710s in service alongside 3 378s. I assume a 378 will be out over the weekend for some driver familiarisation runs. In terms of any future free travel then I suspect TfL will only grant that to people who have regularly touched in and out at GOBLIN stations. That obviously causes some issues if people transit the whole line while boarding and alighting elsewhere - e.g. Hampstead Heath to Upney.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 25, 2019 20:04:34 GMT
A post on another Forum has suggested that these are the times the 378 is expected to run on Monday:
Departures from Barking 06.48/08.18/09.48/11.18/12.48/14.18/15.48/17.18/18.48/20.18/21.48
Departures from Gospel Oak 07.35/09.05/10.35/12.05/13.35/15.05/16.35/18.05/19.35/21.05
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Post by redbus on Jan 25, 2019 22:46:47 GMT
Well, we now know the plans. Firstly well done to TfL who at pretty short notice managed to overcome all the obstacles and get the 378 fit for service on the Goblin for Monday. Credit where it is due.
Now my next challenge to TfL is this, if the first of the 710s is signed off next week having completed it's 2000 miles, then get on with the training, get a few more trains up to the 2000 mile mark and fit for service, so when the 4th of the remaining 6 172s leave, there will be a 710 to replace it and so keep the 15 minute service. PS I think this is challenge to far, but let's have a good stretching target
As for the free month of travel, what is meant by this? Does the Mayor mean a month of free travel for GOBLIN users across the TfL network, that just the GOBLIN line itself is free for a month, a combination of these things, or something totally different? How do you define a GOBLIN user? Does it impact both pay-as-you-go, and season ticketsn? If it encompasses season tickets how can they give an extra month of free travel on the Goblin, but not the rest of the network? I worry that this offer is a political soundbite and might not be all it is imagined, a bit likes the fares freeze, but again I want to be proved wrong!!!
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 25, 2019 23:32:49 GMT
Well, we now know the plans. Firstly well done to TfL who at pretty short notice managed to overcome all the obstacles and get the 378 fit for service on the Goblin for Monday. Credit where it is due.
Now my next challenge to TfL is this, if the first of the 710s is signed off next week having completed it's 2000 miles, then get on with the training, get a few more trains up to the 2000 mile mark and fit for service, so when the 4th of the remaining 6 172s leave, there will be a 710 to replace it and so keep the 15 minute service. PS I think this is challenge to far, but let's have a good stretching target
As for the free month of travel, what is meant by this? Does the Mayor mean a month of free travel for GOBLIN users across the TfL network, that just the GOBLIN line itself is free for a month, a combination of these things, or something totally different? How do you define a GOBLIN user? Does it impact both pay-as-you-go, and season ticketsn? If it encompasses season tickets how can they give an extra month of free travel on the Goblin, but not the rest of the network? I worry that this offer is a political soundbite and might not be all it is imagined, a bit likes the fares freeze, but again I want to be proved wrong!!! I was thinking of this issue. If you obviously give all the registered "regular" users of the line a month travel card there's going to be many people who turn up demanding one because they've used the line and haven't been registered as one. I use the line frequently to get to Warren Street (Barking - Blackhorse Rd - Warren St) but wouldn't be registered as one because it'll think I'm going via Central London. I also have no reason to tap the Pink Reader there as I'll be charged Z1 regardless. I assume there's many people like this who will be entitled to the free travel but won't get it if TfL go down that particular route. The alternative is to just make the Goblin a free for all for a month. It'll work perfectly fine at most stations although won't work at Gospel Oak, Blackhorse Road or Barking as they're interchange stations where both lines are behind barriers. How on earth is someone who needs to get off at Barking meant to prove that they used the Goblin to get there and not the c2c, District of H&C? Another alternative I can think of would be to allocate a month where people get refunded for the journeys made on the Goblin the month after. This should be easier to manage in terms of the gateline but then you have the issue again on how to work out what route people have taken and if it involved the Goblin or not.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 26, 2019 0:52:19 GMT
Well, we now know the plans. Firstly well done to TfL who at pretty short notice managed to overcome all the obstacles and get the 378 fit for service on the Goblin for Monday. Credit where it is due.
Now my next challenge to TfL is this, if the first of the 710s is signed off next week having completed it's 2000 miles, then get on with the training, get a few more trains up to the 2000 mile mark and fit for service, so when the 4th of the remaining 6 172s leave, there will be a 710 to replace it and so keep the 15 minute service. PS I think this is challenge to far, but let's have a good stretching target
As for the free month of travel, what is meant by this? Does the Mayor mean a month of free travel for GOBLIN users across the TfL network, that just the GOBLIN line itself is free for a month, a combination of these things, or something totally different? How do you define a GOBLIN user? Does it impact both pay-as-you-go, and season ticketsn? If it encompasses season tickets how can they give an extra month of free travel on the Goblin, but not the rest of the network? I worry that this offer is a political soundbite and might not be all it is imagined, a bit likes the fares freeze, but again I want to be proved wrong!!! Good evening Dr Gloom here. Well let's wait until Monday and see what happens. Hopefully it'll work OK but if the 378 fails there is no back up train available. I haven't been on the line lately but I assume all the extended platform areas have now been opened up to allow 4 car trains to be tested. If not someone's going to be busy over the weekend clearing away the temporary obstructions and cleaning the platforms and revealing the 4 car stopping signage. If all the other concerns are now resolved - including a signal sighting problem - then yes credit where it is due but I rather suspect some temporary "fixes" are in place rather than permanent solutions. Let's hope the drivers don't go bolshy when they actually have to use whatever fixes are in place. It does seem (being careful here) that the 710s are out and about a bit more trying to build up their mileage. Even if one gets past the 2,000 mile target I doubt Bombardier can just hand it over. They will need to properly document everything that's been done and provide evidence that there were zero faults (however defined). It's not as simple as "oh here's a new train Arriva, off you go". So let's assume a fortnight for the formalities to be done and Arriva to get a train. They then need updated, accurate and signed off training documents. The driver instructors then need to have a "play" with the train on the line - assuming there are paths available during the day. Then you get to the point where drivers could start to be trained. I've no idea what the "critical mass" number is for trained drivers but I think we're still talking many weeks before a 710 could run in passenger service. I've seen photographic evidence that another 710 (264) has been hauled from the test track to Willesden tonight so that's another unit that can start mileage accumulation runs. Units 263, 265 and 269 have all been snapped out and about doing test runs over the last few days. It will take a major miracle for a 710 to be ready to come into service when the 3rd remaining class 172 has to leave in February / March as there the previous three departing 172s will be covered by 4 car 378s. No one is saying it'll be done that quickly. I think TfL will have to take a very narrow interpretation in respect of the "free travel" offer. They did this for the "compensation" during the closures and it's been a running sore with the Line User Group ever since. I can see the whole "gesture" getting horribly mired in politics because it's inevitable politicians will jump on this issue once details emerge because there will always be someone who misses out or can't prove their travel patterns and thus politicians can go "not fair, must do better".
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Post by snowman on Jan 26, 2019 7:01:29 GMT
Well, we now know the plans. Firstly well done to TfL who at pretty short notice managed to overcome all the obstacles and get the 378 fit for service on the Goblin for Monday. Credit where it is due.
Now my next challenge to TfL is this, if the first of the 710s is signed off next week having completed it's 2000 miles, then get on with the training, get a few more trains up to the 2000 mile mark and fit for service, so when the 4th of the remaining 6 172s leave, there will be a 710 to replace it and so keep the 15 minute service. PS I think this is challenge to far, but let's have a good stretching target
As for the free month of travel, what is meant by this? Does the Mayor mean a month of free travel for GOBLIN users across the TfL network, that just the GOBLIN line itself is free for a month, a combination of these things, or something totally different? How do you define a GOBLIN user? Does it impact both pay-as-you-go, and season ticketsn? If it encompasses season tickets how can they give an extra month of free travel on the Goblin, but not the rest of the network? I worry that this offer is a political soundbite and might not be all it is imagined, a bit likes the fares freeze, but again I want to be proved wrong!!! Good evening Dr Gloom here. Well let's wait until Monday and see what happens. Hopefully it'll work OK but if the 378 fails there is no back up train available. I haven't been on the line lately but I assume all the extended platform areas have now been opened up to allow 4 car trains to be tested. If not someone's going to be busy over the weekend clearing away the temporary obstructions and cleaning the platforms and revealing the 4 car stopping signage. If all the other concerns are now resolved - including a signal sighting problem - then yes credit where it is due but I rather suspect some temporary "fixes" are in place rather than permanent solutions. Let's hope the drivers don't go bolshy when they actually have to use whatever fixes are in place. It does seem (being careful here) that the 710s are out and about a bit more trying to build up their mileage. Even if one gets past the 2,000 mile target I doubt Bombardier can just hand it over. They will need to properly document everything that's been done and provide evidence that there were zero faults (however defined). It's not as simple as "oh here's a new train Arriva, off you go". So let's assume a fortnight for the formalities to be done and Arriva to get a train. They then need updated, accurate and signed off training documents. The driver instructors then need to have a "play" with the train on the line - assuming there are paths available during the day. Then you get to the point where drivers could start to be trained. I've no idea what the "critical mass" number is for trained drivers but I think we're still talking many weeks before a 710 could run in passenger service. I've seen photographic evidence that another 710 (264) has been hauled from the test track to Willesden tonight so that's another unit that can start mileage accumulation runs. Units 263, 265 and 269 have all been snapped out and about doing test runs over the last few days. It will take a major miracle for a 710 to be ready to come into service when the 3rd remaining class 172 has to leave in February / March as there the previous three departing 172s will be covered by 4 car 378s. No one is saying it'll be done that quickly. I think TfL will have to take a very narrow interpretation in respect of the "free travel" offer. They did this for the "compensation" during the closures and it's been a running sore with the Line User Group ever since. I can see the whole "gesture" getting horribly mired in politics because it's inevitable politicians will jump on this issue once details emerge because there will always be someone who misses out or can't prove their travel patterns and thus politicians can go "not fair, must do better". Regarding the driver training, there must be some drivers already passed (otherwise who is doing the mileage accumulation), what is not clear is if any of the Goblin drivers (or their instructor/drivers) accompany on some of these runs to learn, or at least get familiar. Not sure how long training takes (and it will be just type conversion, no route learning). A lot would depend on if driver is already passed on other electric units, or has only ever been a diesel driver. It is going to be more handling (getting used to acceleration and braking curve) as other features are not going to be that unfamiliar. As I don’t know the numbers, I will use an assumption of 20 drivers, 2-3 days each, say 50 days training. It really becomes a question of how many available (as some are needed to maintain the service), however as weekend service has been so sparse about quarter of service doesn’t run anyway. What about the trains, presumably they have all done initial shake down either on the short Derby test track or the Old Daley test line, Since then have just been parked, so really just need to get software version 27 and be hauled South. Even moving one each night soon get lots of 710s available (can you couple and move in twos). The first one has to do 2000 fault free miles, but might be lower mileage for subsequent ones. Whole process gets easier as more trains and drivers become available. Can probably get a handful of night time test paths on WCML, at least enough for 2 trains to do 2 out and back runs each. Not sure why some runs go to Milton Keynes and others only to Tring 2 more 378 shortenings only buys another 4 weeks (if 172s leave fortnightly from this weekend for toilet fitting conversion etc), then there would be 2 more weeks (so 6 weeks in total) before a missing 6th train. All a bit critical as it keeps fleet at 6 trains with no spares during that period. I assume 378s can be used at weekends (as don’t need Diesel engine maintenance), but that might impact driver training. With a bit of luck 172s will just about make it, being phased in from March. By then the 12 week public timetables for the big May timetable changes and the 172s for then enhanced Watford line service will need to go through same process. If the timetable has 4 trains every 15 minutes, can run 3 trains every 20 minutes, if only got 3 trains, have to have a half hour gap (and Goblin has done a few of these)
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 26, 2019 12:14:04 GMT
Well, we now know the plans. Firstly well done to TfL who at pretty short notice managed to overcome all the obstacles and get the 378 fit for service on the Goblin for Monday. Credit where it is due.
Now my next challenge to TfL is this, if the first of the 710s is signed off next week having completed it's 2000 miles, then get on with the training, get a few more trains up to the 2000 mile mark and fit for service, so when the 4th of the remaining 6 172s leave, there will be a 710 to replace it and so keep the 15 minute service. PS I think this is challenge to far, but let's have a good stretching target
As for the free month of travel, what is meant by this? Does the Mayor mean a month of free travel for GOBLIN users across the TfL network, that just the GOBLIN line itself is free for a month, a combination of these things, or something totally different? How do you define a GOBLIN user? Does it impact both pay-as-you-go, and season ticketsn? If it encompasses season tickets how can they give an extra month of free travel on the Goblin, but not the rest of the network? I worry that this offer is a political soundbite and might not be all it is imagined, a bit likes the fares freeze, but again I want to be proved wrong!!! Good evening Dr Gloom here. Well let's wait until Monday and see what happens. Hopefully it'll work OK but if the 378 fails there is no back up train available. I haven't been on the line lately but I assume all the extended platform areas have now been opened up to allow 4 car trains to be tested. If not someone's going to be busy over the weekend clearing away the temporary obstructions and cleaning the platforms and revealing the 4 car stopping signage. If all the other concerns are now resolved - including a signal sighting problem - then yes credit where it is due but I rather suspect some temporary "fixes" are in place rather than permanent solutions. Let's hope the drivers don't go bolshy when they actually have to use whatever fixes are in place. It does seem (being careful here) that the 710s are out and about a bit more trying to build up their mileage. Even if one gets past the 2,000 mile target I doubt Bombardier can just hand it over. They will need to properly document everything that's been done and provide evidence that there were zero faults (however defined). It's not as simple as "oh here's a new train Arriva, off you go". So let's assume a fortnight for the formalities to be done and Arriva to get a train. They then need updated, accurate and signed off training documents. The driver instructors then need to have a "play" with the train on the line - assuming there are paths available during the day. Then you get to the point where drivers could start to be trained. I've no idea what the "critical mass" number is for trained drivers but I think we're still talking many weeks before a 710 could run in passenger service. I've seen photographic evidence that another 710 (264) has been hauled from the test track to Willesden tonight so that's another unit that can start mileage accumulation runs. Units 263, 265 and 269 have all been snapped out and about doing test runs over the last few days. It will take a major miracle for a 710 to be ready to come into service when the 3rd remaining class 172 has to leave in February / March as there the previous three departing 172s will be covered by 4 car 378s. No one is saying it'll be done that quickly. I think TfL will have to take a very narrow interpretation in respect of the "free travel" offer. They did this for the "compensation" during the closures and it's been a running sore with the Line User Group ever since. I can see the whole "gesture" getting horribly mired in politics because it's inevitable politicians will jump on this issue once details emerge because there will always be someone who misses out or can't prove their travel patterns and thus politicians can go "not fair, must do better". When I went down the line on Thursday all the platform extensions were still closed off and the stop markers covered with bin bags. Really did not give me hope of the 378 being in service but luckily I've been proved wrong.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 26, 2019 19:55:47 GMT
Regarding the driver training, there must be some drivers already passed (otherwise who is doing the mileage accumulation), what is not clear is if any of the Goblin drivers (or their instructor/drivers) accompany on some of these runs to learn, or at least get familiar. Not sure how long training takes (and it will be just type conversion, no route learning). A lot would depend on if driver is already passed on other electric units, or has only ever been a diesel driver. It is going to be more handling (getting used to acceleration and braking curve) as other features are not going to be that unfamiliar. As I don’t know the numbers, I will use an assumption of 20 drivers, 2-3 days each, say 50 days training. It really becomes a question of how many available (as some are needed to maintain the service), however as weekend service has been so sparse about quarter of service doesn’t run anyway. What about the trains, presumably they have all done initial shake down either on the short Derby test track or the Old Daley test line, Since then have just been parked, so really just need to get software version 27 and be hauled South. Even moving one each night soon get lots of 710s available (can you couple and move in twos). The first one has to do 2000 fault free miles, but might be lower mileage for subsequent ones. Whole process gets easier as more trains and drivers become available. Can probably get a handful of night time test paths on WCML, at least enough for 2 trains to do 2 out and back runs each. Not sure why some runs go to Milton Keynes and others only to Tring 2 more 378 shortenings only buys another 4 weeks (if 172s leave fortnightly from this weekend for toilet fitting conversion etc), then there would be 2 more weeks (so 6 weeks in total) before a missing 6th train. All a bit critical as it keeps fleet at 6 trains with no spares during that period. I assume 378s can be used at weekends (as don’t need Diesel engine maintenance), but that might impact driver training. With a bit of luck 172s will just about make it, being phased in from March. By then the 12 week public timetables for the big May timetable changes and the 172s for then enhanced Watford line service will need to go through same process. If the timetable has 4 trains every 15 minutes, can run 3 trains every 20 minutes, if only got 3 trains, have to have a half hour gap (and Goblin has done a few of these) Right let's try again after Proboards threw away and didn't save a previous answer I'd drafted. - the test trains are not driven by ARL staff. I believe they are DRS drivers who have multiple route knowledge hence their ability to drive different routes for test purposes. - I believe the driver conversion course for 710s is 4 days long. It won't all be "at the wheel" stuff. Drivers need to be familiarised on the stock, on fault finding / diagnostics etc. - I have read somewhere that 170 drivers need training for GOBLIN / NLL / Euston routes. So 680 days of training which will take some time. I don't know at what point a "critical mass" of trained staff is achieved which will avoid drivers being rostered who've never touched a 710 before. I don't know what the numbers are for West Anglia but likely to be considerable. - Last thing I read was that the drivers hadn't even been on the 710 simulator. I assume this is because the simulator has to react in line with the latest software so no point putting drivers on it if the software is potentially still under development. - AIUI 6 710s have been at Willesden for a while. No idea about any "shake down" process. Unit 264 has been at Old Dalby - I assume because it was a test bed train for software revisions. It was hauled back to Willesden yesterday. - You're right that not every unit has to achieve 2,000 fault free miles but a few do and then there is some lower limit which I don't know. Nonetheless every unit has to build up the required mileage because ARL can contractually accept the trains. - The number of test / mileage paths is limited because NR have constrained where the trains have run. This is because they are concerned about a 710 conking out and blocking the line. Hence why test runs remain on LO tracks only or as far as Tring on the WCML. It minimises the risk of other TOC's services being affected in the event of a breakdown. - While the use of 3 378s is fine it is, as you say, only a short term stop gap. It brings risks to the entire LO network (excluding W Anglia) because spare cover will be very stretched and it may require cancellation of other services. If a train is damaged or develops a serious fault then someone, somewhere will lose service. - If we get to early March with no 710s available then the GOBLIN collapses to a half hourly service. If any 4 car 378s fail then we are down to hourly gaps between trains which, to be frank, is pathetic. That takes us back to BR days when the old DMUs were literally falling apart and the service was extremely unreliable. That will cause enormous hardship for people given the vastly higher numbers who travel now compared to early 1990s. - I remain of the view that we will need a miracle and a LOT of flexibility from regulators / trade unions to get 710s into regular passenger service before late April or May. The GOBLIN service may well have collapsed by then if the 378s fail or breakdown. There's no contingency.
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Post by routew15 on Jan 27, 2019 10:20:37 GMT
If there are delays with the software in other Bombardier Aventras will there be offers of free travel for these companies?
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Post by snoggle on Jan 27, 2019 11:39:46 GMT
If there are delays with the software in other Bombardier Aventras will there be offers of free travel for these companies? I doubt it. Other TOCs are not in the same situation of having a fleet transferred away. One or two face the issue of potential non compliance with disability regulations but they can apply to the DfT for a waiver. DfT would almost certainly grant them because the last thing it wants is commuter train service cancellations being blamed on them again. The wider issue is the linkage in franchises between new trains and enhanced timetables leading to greater revenues and thus premium payments to the DfT. This is where DfT will get concerned - train fleet delays will cause franchisees to default on their obligations and potentially their franchise payments. Greater Anglia is rumoured to already be in financial trouble and so is SWR. It's too early for London and North Western to be affected as they are a long way down the queue for new Aventras.
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