What happens to TfL rail once Crossrail is running

[capitalomnibus]

Does anyone know what would happen to TfL rail, the line between Liverpool Street - Shenfield once Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) is running. Would it be disbanded along with the trains.

[MoEnviro]

Mar 25, 2016 14:46:52 GMT capitalomnibus said:

Does anyone know what would happen to TfL rail, the line between Liverpool Street - Shenfield once Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) is running. Would it be disbanded along with the trains.

TfL rail will be re-branded and will become Crossrail in May 2017 when the new trains start running over the existing line (between Liverpool Street and Shenfield), then the current trains move onto the Gospel Oak to Barking line, until they receive new electric trains.  

[romfordbuses]

Mar 25, 2016 15:45:20 GMT MoEnviro said:

TfL rail will be re-branded and will become Crossrail in May 2017 when the new trains start running over the existing line (between Liverpool Street and Shenfield), then the current trains move onto the Gospel Oak to Barking line, until they receive new electric trains.  

The trains won't be going on to the GOBLIN, They will be staying with Crossrail to run Liverpool Street extras.

[snoggle]

Mar 25, 2016 17:43:10 GMT romfordbuses said:

Mar 25, 2016 15:45:20 GMT MoEnviro said:

TfL rail will be re-branded and will become Crossrail in May 2017 when the new trains start running over the existing line (between Liverpool Street and Shenfield), then the current trains move onto the Gospel Oak to Barking line, until they receive new electric trains.  

The trains won't be going on to the GOBLIN, They will be staying with Crossrail to run Liverpool Street extras.

Eh?

The new Class 345s will displace all the 315s in time. The 315s go to the scrap heap as things stand today. TfL have explicity stated, in a Mayor's Answer that I think I shared on this group, that the 315s do NOT go the GOBLIN. The reasons for not doing this - cost, driver training, extra maintenance costs - apply as much to any relevant EMUs being used as a short term "fillip" until the GOBLIN's Class 710s arrive.

Initially the 345s are delivered in a reduced length format of 7 cars (to fit into the Liv St platforms). They then have to be extended to 9 cars for use through the tunnels. Network Rail will decommission platform 18 at Liv St to allow more space for platforms 16 and 17 to be extended so 9 car Class 345s can operate. Even when the Crossrail service runs into the tunnel there will still be 4 tph from Shenfield to Liv St (surface) in the AM peak (and vice versa in the PM peak). Those peak trains will also be class 345s. Looking at the Crossrail Concession Agreement shows how the stages and services build up. I confess to being a little surprised that the Class 315s will seemingly still be knocking around into 2019 as they are a valid type of train until the Stage 5 Date (which I assume is Dec 2019 judging by the service requirement).

It also looks as if TfL will not be using the class 360s when they take over Heathrow Connect services. That service has to be run with class 345s.

[snoggle]

As I am very sad I thought I would read the Crossrail Concession Agreement to see how the new Class 345s come into service and how the 315s disappear.

One important starting point is that the new Class 345s come in two forms - RLU (Reduced Length Unit) and FLU (Full Length Units). RLUs will only ever operate on the eastern side of the Crossrail and even then only in the short term.

No of units	Date	Comment
1st and 2nd	17/4/17	2 RLU training units
2-15	1/5/17	2 RLU training units and 13 pass trains
15	19/9/17	11 diagrams for Liv St - Shenfield services
17	31/12/17	As above plus 2 FLUs for driver training
17-35	15/4/18	15 RLUs,  18 FLUs and 2 FLUs for driver training  Covers Liv St - Shenfield / Padd - Heathrow
36-37	May 2018 t/t date	As above plus 2 spare units
36/7-47	6/7/18	As above plus units for trial running on the core section Abbey Wood - Paddington
36/7-47	4/8/18	As above but the extra units used for trial operations Abbey Wood - Paddington
48	Dec 2018 t/t date	15 RLUs for 11 diagrams Liv St - Shenfield, 19 diagrams on Central section
49/50	Up to May 2019	As above plus 2 spare units to support operational service
62	May 2019 t/t date	45 FLU diagrams for Paddington - Shenfield / Abbey Wood services. 5 RLUs for peak G Park - Liv St services
63/4	Up to Dec 2019	As above plus 2 spare FL units to support operational service
63/4	3/8/19	10 of the RLUs will be converted to FLUs by this date
63/4	4 weeks after Liv St Platform works	Remaining 5 RLUs are converted to FLUs
65/6	Dec 2019 t/t date	61 diagrams for full through service and peak flow Shenfield - Liv St (main line)

The dates are taken from the contract definitions for the various "Stage Dates" for service build up.  The Liv St platform works date is apparently defined in the Rolling Stock Provision Agreement but I can't find that.

As can be seen the eastern service runs with shorter units until the tunnel connection opens at Stratford.  There is also a mixed operation of class 345s and 315s right through into 2019 because of the need to cope with short platforms at Liv St main line.  Full length units will clearly be marshalled largely in West London until 2019 when through services start on to the Shenfield route.

[snowman]

Mar 25, 2016 17:43:10 GMT romfordbuses said:

Mar 25, 2016 15:45:20 GMT MoEnviro said:

TfL rail will be re-branded and will become Crossrail in May 2017 when the new trains start running over the existing line (between Liverpool Street and Shenfield), then the current trains move onto the Gospel Oak to Barking line, until they receive new electric trains.  

The trains won't be going on to the GOBLIN, They will be staying with Crossrail to run Liverpool Street extras.

The rebranding has been changed. It will stay as TfL rail for a while longer, as the new 345s are being phased in. Crossrail will no longer be used as a brand, and the Elizabeth line brand will be launched when the central section runnels open to Abbey Wood. The spur to pudding mill Lane portal (and onto Shenfield) is later. There is a time between phase 4 and 5 when the peak Liverpool St service can't be worked by the 345s (as the trains will be lengthened to 9 cars, but platforms 16 and 17 cannot take the longer trains until the platforms are extended which kills the approach track to platform 18. The dates for completion of altering Liverpool St have not yet been announced. (Crossrail uses 23m long coaches, the 315s are nearer 20m - 20.5m, hence 7 cars replacing 8)

The 315s are due to be scrapped, half get replaced by 345s, the others by new NE London trains, the class 710 Aventra fleet (45 x 4car, which also includes Goblin)

There may be an interim fleet on the Liverpool St peak extras, if station works are delayed, probably be either 317 or 321 units as 8 cars. There is a plan (not yet ordered) to get about 210 new coaches for Anglia, either 110 or 125mph EMUs for mainline service to Norwich, so could get a few extra thus displacing some 321s.

The second potential problem, is that the growth of London population is faster than when crossrail was given go ahead many years ago. The phase 5 timetable Dec 2019 is based on 24 trains per hour of 9 cars. There is provision for expansion, unto 30 trains per hour in Central tunnels, and lengthening to 11 cars. (The Heathrow platforms are also limited to 9 cars which is another problem), That makes the trains about 10m too long for the 12 x 20m car platforms which is standard length at Liverpool Steet so either the peak extras need to be shorter or somehow extra room needs to be squeezed in at Liverpool St, or the peak service is abandoned and replaced by more trains through the tunnels. It will be obvious that if a decision is made to increase the central tunnels frequency, there is no point wasting money altering Liv St which might explain why there is currently no timescale for this. Much easier to borrow some 317s with PR saying we have ordered extra 345s