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Post by vjaska on May 27, 2019 19:30:06 GMT
I could have lived with Theresa May's deal going through. Regrettably many MPs and quite a few members of the public are uncompromising in their preferances, whether Leave or Remain. It is remarkable that in London the LibDems came top, even beating Labour, not least in Islington. UKIP have fallen from no 1 to oblivion. This is a much faster fall even than a Christmas no 1!! lol Brexit Party is just UKIP rebranded. When there is a General Election it will be very interesting to see what happens. Just as long as Corbyn don't get in - god help us all if that happens!
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Post by galwhv69 on May 27, 2019 20:09:16 GMT
Brexit Party is just UKIP rebranded. When there is a General Election it will be very interesting to see what happens. Just as long as Corbyn don't get in - god help us all if that happens! Or Johnson!
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Post by rif153 on May 28, 2019 10:00:43 GMT
I could have lived with Theresa May's deal going through. Regrettably many MPs and quite a few members of the public are uncompromising in their preferances, whether Leave or Remain. It is remarkable that in London the LibDems came top, even beating Labour, not least in Islington. UKIP have fallen from no 1 to oblivion. This is a much faster fall even than a Christmas no 1!! lol Brexit Party is just UKIP rebranded. When there is a General Election it will be very interesting to see what happens. Even though the Brexit Party is just UKIP.2 I was anticipating UKIP retaining some of their seats but I guess it shows how Farage's charisma can sway large swathes of the electorate. UKIP under Batten has gone in a very bad direction with likes of Carl Benjamin and Tommy Robinson so I'm UKIP did badly however I'm hardly over the moon about the Brexit Party's success
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Post by ServerKing on May 30, 2019 4:51:53 GMT
Just as long as Corbyn don't get in - god help us all if that happens! Or Johnson! Boris might be tied up with court now for the dishonesty of the Leave campaign, if criminal charges are brought that's him out of the game. He could run the country from prison, like a lot of County Lines gangstas run their operations
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Post by busman on May 30, 2019 7:50:10 GMT
Boris might be tied up with court now for the dishonesty of the Leave campaign, if criminal charges are brought that's him out of the game. He could run the country from prison, like a lot of County Lines gangstas run their operations I’m really not a fan of bumbling Boris. His appointment as Conservative leader would send a clear signal that the Tory party are moving away from meritocracy towards personality politics. In saying all of that, anyone can see that these charges are a joke. Politicians make statements all the time that are factually incorrect. The court would need to show that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Boris wilfully lied to the public. In other words have unquestionable evidence that he had the actual facts in front of him and went against his advisers to mislead the public. I imagine that would be very hard to prove.
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Post by sid on May 30, 2019 7:58:42 GMT
Boris might be tied up with court now for the dishonesty of the Leave campaign, if criminal charges are brought that's him out of the game. He could run the country from prison, like a lot of County Lines gangstas run their operations I’m really not a fan of bumbling Boris. His appointment as Conservative leader would send a clear signal that the Tory party are moving away from meritocracy towards personality politics. In saying all of that, anyone can see that these charges are a joke. Politicians make statements all the time that are factually incorrect. The court would need to show that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Boris wilfully lied to the public. In other words have unquestionable evidence that he had the actual facts in front of him and went against his advisers to mislead the public. I imagine that would be very hard to prove. Exactly the whole thing is little more than a publicity stunt and I'm amazed it's got as far as it has, if we're going to start hauling politicians before the courts for allegedly being economical with the truth the legal system in this country will quickly grind to a halt. I think this could actually work in Boris's favour, even many of his political opponents have expressed their disquiet.
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Post by busman on May 30, 2019 8:16:25 GMT
I’m really not a fan of bumbling Boris. His appointment as Conservative leader would send a clear signal that the Tory party are moving away from meritocracy towards personality politics. In saying all of that, anyone can see that these charges are a joke. Politicians make statements all the time that are factually incorrect. The court would need to show that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Boris wilfully lied to the public. In other words have unquestionable evidence that he had the actual facts in front of him and went against his advisers to mislead the public. I imagine that would be very hard to prove. Exactly the whole thing is little more than a publicity stunt and I'm amazed it's got as far as it has, if we're going to start hauling politicians before the courts for allegedly being economical with the truth the legal system in this country will quickly grind to a halt. I think this could actually work in Boris's favour, even many of his political opponents have expressed their disquiet. If this so called principle was applied fairly and equally to every politician the litigation would grind the country to a halt. If we don’t like a policy, a politician or a party we can vote accordingly. I think that should suffice.
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Post by wirewiper on May 30, 2019 8:27:45 GMT
Boris might be tied up with court now for the dishonesty of the Leave campaign, if criminal charges are brought that's him out of the game. He could run the country from prison, like a lot of County Lines gangstas run their operations I’m really not a fan of bumbling Boris. His appointment as Conservative leader would send a clear signal that the Tory party are moving away from meritocracy towards personality politics. In saying all of that, anyone can see that these charges are a joke. Politicians make statements all the time that are factually incorrect. The court would need to show that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Boris wilfully lied to the public. In other words have unquestionable evidence that he had the actual facts in front of him and went against his advisers to mislead the public. I imagine that would be very hard to prove. I tend to find that politicians are evasive rather than liars. They avoid giving answers to questions in case the answer comes back to bite them. The proposed trial of Boris Johnson is in a different league. It has been proved that the Leave campaign was founded on outright lies, and Boris Johnson, one of the leading lights in that campaign, is now to be held to account for those lies. This is no "Show Trial", he would not be prosecuted if the judiciary did not think it was possible to prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" that Boris Johnson wilfully lied to the public. I consider him to be a disgrace to public office. There is no way he deserves to be Prime Minister.
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Post by SILENCED on May 30, 2019 9:15:03 GMT
Boris might be tied up with court now for the dishonesty of the Leave campaign, if criminal charges are brought that's him out of the game. He could run the country from prison, like a lot of County Lines gangstas run their operations Official figures show in 2015 our gross contribution to the EU was €18.2b .... which works out at €350m a week .... OK, Euros not pounds ... but sure it has gone up since.
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Post by busman on May 30, 2019 11:03:45 GMT
I’m really not a fan of bumbling Boris. His appointment as Conservative leader would send a clear signal that the Tory party are moving away from meritocracy towards personality politics. In saying all of that, anyone can see that these charges are a joke. Politicians make statements all the time that are factually incorrect. The court would need to show that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Boris wilfully lied to the public. In other words have unquestionable evidence that he had the actual facts in front of him and went against his advisers to mislead the public. I imagine that would be very hard to prove. I tend to find that politicians are evasive rather than liars. They avoid giving answers to questions in case the answer comes back to bite them. The proposed trial of Boris Johnson is in a different league. It has been proved that the Leave campaign was founded on outright lies, and Boris Johnson, one of the leading lights in that campaign, is now to be held to account for those lies. This is no "Show Trial", he would not be prosecuted if the judiciary did not think it was possible to prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" that Boris Johnson wilfully lied to the public. I consider him to be a disgrace to public office. There is no way he deserves to be Prime Minister. “Proving beyond reasonable doubt” - therein lies the problem. One can be faced with alternative sources all presenting themselves as fact. There is a difference in choosing to believe a set of “facts” that back up your point of view and making up lies to achieve an outcome. Probably worst case scenario is that Boris was guilty of repeating something that turned out to be a lie that had been presented to him at the time as a fact. I would think carefully about the ramifications of prosecuting someone on those grounds. It goes far beyond punishing Boris. For the record, I’m a staunch Remainer and believe that Boris is a self-serving individual prone to buffoonery of the greatest order and there are far more capable leaders within the Tory party, but we have to look at things objectively and remove our personal views from this court case.
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Post by vjaska on May 30, 2019 11:08:52 GMT
I’m really not a fan of bumbling Boris. His appointment as Conservative leader would send a clear signal that the Tory party are moving away from meritocracy towards personality politics. In saying all of that, anyone can see that these charges are a joke. Politicians make statements all the time that are factually incorrect. The court would need to show that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Boris wilfully lied to the public. In other words have unquestionable evidence that he had the actual facts in front of him and went against his advisers to mislead the public. I imagine that would be very hard to prove. I tend to find that politicians are evasive rather than liars. They avoid giving answers to questions in case the answer comes back to bite them. The proposed trial of Boris Johnson is in a different league. It has been proved that the Leave campaign was founded on outright lies, and Boris Johnson, one of the leading lights in that campaign, is now to be held to account for those lies. This is no "Show Trial", he would not be prosecuted if the judiciary did not think it was possible to prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" that Boris Johnson wilfully lied to the public. I consider him to be a disgrace to public office. There is no way he deserves to be Prime Minister. There was lies formed in both camps - you either charge all politicians who lie or you don’t as you can’t just pick and choose who to go after.
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Post by sid on May 30, 2019 12:54:15 GMT
I’m really not a fan of bumbling Boris. His appointment as Conservative leader would send a clear signal that the Tory party are moving away from meritocracy towards personality politics. In saying all of that, anyone can see that these charges are a joke. Politicians make statements all the time that are factually incorrect. The court would need to show that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Boris wilfully lied to the public. In other words have unquestionable evidence that he had the actual facts in front of him and went against his advisers to mislead the public. I imagine that would be very hard to prove. I tend to find that politicians are evasive rather than liars. They avoid giving answers to questions in case the answer comes back to bite them. The proposed trial of Boris Johnson is in a different league. It has been proved that the Leave campaign was founded on outright lies, and Boris Johnson, one of the leading lights in that campaign, is now to be held to account for those lies. This is no "Show Trial", he would not be prosecuted if the judiciary did not think it was possible to prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" that Boris Johnson wilfully lied to the public. I consider him to be a disgrace to public office. There is no way he deserves to be Prime Minister. I agree with your first paragraph, as for the referendum campaign I think it's fair to say that neither side came out of it smelling of roses and I don't see why Boris gets singled out for vilification. If we're going to have a witch hunt let's at least do it consistently. I can't see this private prosecution as anything other than a lamentable attempt to try and derail Brexit.
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Post by rif153 on May 30, 2019 14:08:40 GMT
I tend to find that politicians are evasive rather than liars. They avoid giving answers to questions in case the answer comes back to bite them. The proposed trial of Boris Johnson is in a different league. It has been proved that the Leave campaign was founded on outright lies, and Boris Johnson, one of the leading lights in that campaign, is now to be held to account for those lies. This is no "Show Trial", he would not be prosecuted if the judiciary did not think it was possible to prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" that Boris Johnson wilfully lied to the public. I consider him to be a disgrace to public office. There is no way he deserves to be Prime Minister. I agree with your first paragraph, as for the referendum campaign I think it's fair to say that neither side came out of it smelling of roses and I don't see why Boris gets singled out for vilification. If we're going to have a witch hunt let's at least do it consistently. I can't see this private prosecution as anything other than a lamentable attempt to try and derail Brexit. As well as an attempt to hamper Boris' leadership bid
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Post by busman on May 30, 2019 14:18:50 GMT
I tend to find that politicians are evasive rather than liars. They avoid giving answers to questions in case the answer comes back to bite them. The proposed trial of Boris Johnson is in a different league. It has been proved that the Leave campaign was founded on outright lies, and Boris Johnson, one of the leading lights in that campaign, is now to be held to account for those lies. This is no "Show Trial", he would not be prosecuted if the judiciary did not think it was possible to prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" that Boris Johnson wilfully lied to the public. I consider him to be a disgrace to public office. There is no way he deserves to be Prime Minister. I agree with your first paragraph, as for the referendum campaign I think it's fair to say that neither side came out of it smelling of roses and I don't see why Boris gets singled out for vilification. If we're going to have a witch hunt let's at least do it consistently. I can't see this private prosecution as anything other than a lamentable attempt to try and derail Brexit. I’m sure many of your fellow Brexiteers see it exactly the same way as you do. As a Remainer, I think we should have spent more energy talking about the benefits EU membership have brought us in terms of stability and economic growth. Instead the campaign focused on what might happen if we left. Hence we ended up with a choice between the abstract benefits of Brexit vs. hypothetical disaster scenarios of Brexit. Much of which are pure speculation (on both sides) because the truth is no-one can say for certain what the impact of Brexit would be until it is actually done. This country is in a huge mess right now as politicians are finding those abstract ideas about Brexit turn to mush when they meet reality. The only way to deliver much of the promised benefits of Brexit is to walk away with no deal. But then politicians know that a no deal Brexit would also deliver the hypothetical disaster scenarios that have been previously dismissed as project fear. It’s one hot mess. If our country (politicians and society) invested more in education, aspiration and fostering a spirit of entrepreneurship along with a highly competitive environment for businesses to be based in the UK I would be very confident of our ability to make the best of a no deal situation. However all I see is political incompetence, idiots telling immigrants to go back to their own country and oiks like Tommy Robinson getting a platform to spout nonsense. If milkshake is hailed as a valid response to a serious threat to how our society moves forward then we’re stuffed. Ok so reading this back, I’ve really gone off on one, but yes I agree with your point that it seems unfair to single out Boris and not apply the same rule of scrutiny to all politicians. This is a private prosecution though, so that’s the only reason why this is even getting to court. Going after Boris won’t derail Brexit no matter the outcome. I have yet to meet a Brexiteer that will change their mind on Brexit over the £350M per week to the NHS. For most of the Brexiteers I’ve spoken with, it seems that matters of control and sovereignty outweigh that of the economy.
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Post by busaholic on May 30, 2019 15:28:27 GMT
The court case against Johnson is on the basis that, as lead de facto spokesman for Vote Leave, the OFFICIAL campaign registered by the Electoral Commission, he made statements regarding the sums of money the UK government gave to the UK to facilitate its work. existence, etc, which were untrue, and that when the UK Statistics Authority, with their own admitted extreme reluctance, felt compelled to point this error out, in writing, along with a plea to desist, he wilfully chose to ignore them, despite a reminder letter. This has nothing to do with promises, fantasies, other monstrous lies (arguably by both sides) which will continue forever as long as politicians indulge in power grabbing, but supposed material facts upon which the electorate could make their mind up which way to vote, given that most people with half a braincell and no vested interest would seek to weigh up the arguments for and against. I was against the UK joining the Common Market, for what it's worth, but considered myself a Reluctant Remainer at the time the referendum was called, although the following weeks saw my remaining doubts overwhelmed by the blatant untruths being spun by Johnson and co, culminating in the murder of Jo Cox.
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