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Post by mondraker275 on Feb 9, 2017 10:17:06 GMT
The bus journey data for period 10 (11Dec-7Jan) is now on London datastore 145.7m journeys (2015-16 147.1m 2014-15 156.8m 2013-14 155.1m) Year to date journeys (period 1-10) 1735.5m (2015-16 1799.2m 2014-15 1823.2m 2013-14 1803.3m) So still a huge fall in journeys that shows no sign of recovery Of course the fact that many more people are now cycling since it's been made safer might have a lot to do with it? Two answers 1) No, Not really. Especially as you said 'a lot'. Its very small aspect of the many reasons. The main reason is that bus journeys are longer and not improving any time soon, and some people have got fed up and been forced to use alternatives. People have not been sitting on buses for years, thinking, if only, cycling was safer, I would cycle from Forest Gate to Liverpool Street. Look now, because now part of my journey is segregated, I will stop taking the bus. Makes no sense. More likely said person was happy with their bus commute but now its really long and unreliable. They will pay a few extra pounds and take the tube. This is reflected in the increase in tube journeys in the same periods. For short bus journeys, people will walk 20-30 minutes before they cycle. The only time we will get bus journeys transferred for cycle journeys is that intermediate range, where bus journey would take 30-40 minutes on a good day (but now 1 hour), and there are no parallel tube/train lines. It also helps if that route had segregated cycle lanes. Cycling is a completely different mode of transport that requires a huge commitment and effort. Its much easier to go from public transport to public transport. 2) Completely agree. Trying to make cycling safer has caused the bus numbers to go down.
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Post by sid on Feb 9, 2017 13:54:30 GMT
Of course the fact that many more people are now cycling since it's been made safer might have a lot to do with it? Two answers 1) No, Not really. Especially as you said 'a lot'. Its very small aspect of the many reasons. The main reason is that bus journeys are longer and not improving any time soon, and some people have got fed up and been forced to use alternatives. People have not been sitting on buses for years, thinking, if only, cycling was safer, I would cycle from Forest Gate to Liverpool Street. Look now, because now part of my journey is segregated, I will stop taking the bus. Makes no sense. More likely said person was happy with their bus commute but now its really long and unreliable. They will pay a few extra pounds and take the tube. This is reflected in the increase in tube journeys in the same periods. For short bus journeys, people will walk 20-30 minutes before they cycle. The only time we will get bus journeys transferred for cycle journeys is that intermediate range, where bus journey would take 30-40 minutes on a good day (but now 1 hour), and there are no parallel tube/train lines. It also helps if that route had segregated cycle lanes. Cycling is a completely different mode of transport that requires a huge commitment and effort. Its much easier to go from public transport to public transport. 2) Completely agree. Trying to make cycling safer has caused the bus numbers to go down. More people are cycling since it became safer and numbers will obviously increase further in the summer months, I think it's reasonable to assume a fair chunk of them will be former bus users. Equally some will be former tube passengers and the capacity they have freed up is being utilised by former bus users who had previously found the tube too overcrowded. Bus travel in Central London has become slower for a variety of reasons including the increased population, more pedestrian lights and not least of all the fact that there are just too many buses in certain areas.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 12, 2017 3:02:27 GMT
Two answers 1) No, Not really. Especially as you said 'a lot'. Its very small aspect of the many reasons. The main reason is that bus journeys are longer and not improving any time soon, and some people have got fed up and been forced to use alternatives. People have not been sitting on buses for years, thinking, if only, cycling was safer, I would cycle from Forest Gate to Liverpool Street. Look now, because now part of my journey is segregated, I will stop taking the bus. Makes no sense. More likely said person was happy with their bus commute but now its really long and unreliable. They will pay a few extra pounds and take the tube. This is reflected in the increase in tube journeys in the same periods. For short bus journeys, people will walk 20-30 minutes before they cycle. The only time we will get bus journeys transferred for cycle journeys is that intermediate range, where bus journey would take 30-40 minutes on a good day (but now 1 hour), and there are no parallel tube/train lines. It also helps if that route had segregated cycle lanes. Cycling is a completely different mode of transport that requires a huge commitment and effort. Its much easier to go from public transport to public transport. 2) Completely agree. Trying to make cycling safer has caused the bus numbers to go down. More people are cycling since it became safer and numbers will obviously increase further in the summer months, I think it's reasonable to assume a fair chunk of them will be former bus users. Equally some will be former tube passengers and the capacity they have freed up is being utilised by former bus users who had previously found the tube too overcrowded. Bus travel in Central London has become slower for a variety of reasons including the increased population, more pedestrian lights and not least of all the fact that there are just too many buses in certain areas. It is not safer, maybe safer in your eyes. End of the day its a mobile death trap. More vehicles on the road is highly unlikely to be safer - unless you were on the pavement. More people are cycling because they have no choice or are being forced to or brainwashed into doing it by the government. Hardly much tube users are going to cycle, unless they cant afford it. The population was always on the increase, and is nothing to do with the reason buses in Central London becoming slower. Your statement of too much buses in the central area why it has become slower is a load of hogwash. There are some central London routes where only one or two routes go and service levels hasn't increased much, but traffic and cycle lanes has, not to mention being slowed down by slow bicycles in bus lanes and bus lanes being removed in certain places for cycle super highway.
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Post by sid on Feb 12, 2017 7:52:17 GMT
More people are cycling since it became safer and numbers will obviously increase further in the summer months, I think it's reasonable to assume a fair chunk of them will be former bus users. Equally some will be former tube passengers and the capacity they have freed up is being utilised by former bus users who had previously found the tube too overcrowded. Bus travel in Central London has become slower for a variety of reasons including the increased population, more pedestrian lights and not least of all the fact that there are just too many buses in certain areas. It is not safer, maybe safer in your eyes. End of the day its a mobile death trap. More vehicles on the road is highly unlikely to be safer - unless you were on the pavement. More people are cycling because they have no choice or are being forced to or brainwashed into doing it by the government. Hardly much tube users are going to cycle, unless they cant afford it. The population was always on the increase, and is nothing to do with the reason buses in Central London becoming slower. Your statement of too much buses in the central area why it has become slower is a load of hogwash. There are some central London routes where only one or two routes go and service levels hasn't increased much, but traffic and cycle lanes has, not to mention being slowed down by slow bicycles in bus lanes and bus lanes being removed in certain places for cycle super highway.
Cycling is safer, the casualty figures bear that out. I can't see how anybody has been forced or brainwashed into cycling, people do actually enjoy it and find it vastly preferable to be crammed onto crowded tubes or buses. I suppose as far as you're concerned cyclists are all just a d*mn nuisance? There are too many buses in some areas, just a wall of red and very few passengers.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 19, 2017 17:10:51 GMT
While musing about causes of patronage decline on the buses I was left wondering if the removal of cash payment from the bus network has had a bigger impact than expected. Cash payment was removed in early July 2014 and since then patronage has been falling. I'm not saying it's a major factor - clearly congestion, delays and long journey times are well known and proven factors behind falling ridership. I just wonder if the loss of cash payment has deterred tourists and a proportion of occasional travellers who were happy to pay on the bus but can't be bothered with Oyster Cards or don't have / don't realise contactless bank cards work on buses. I wonder if TfL have done any research into this and whether the results are not what TfL might have hoped for.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 18:29:34 GMT
While musing about causes of patronage decline on the buses I was left wondering if the removal of cash payment from the bus network has had a bigger impact than expected. Cash payment was removed in early July 2014 and since then patronage has been falling. I'm not saying it's a major factor - clearly congestion, delays and long journey times are well known and proven factors behind falling ridership. I just wonder if the loss of cash payment has deterred tourists and a proportion of occasional travellers who were happy to pay on the bus but can't be bothered with Oyster Cards or don't have / don't realise contactless bank cards work on buses. I wonder if TfL have done any research into this and whether the results are not what TfL might have hoped for. How many paper passes are used which aren't counted on official figures? Also, I think there is a huge fare avoidance Issue on LT routes. Do we think more, or less, tourists are on Central London routes compared to 20 years ago ? Personally I think less.
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Post by sid on Feb 19, 2017 19:21:08 GMT
While musing about causes of patronage decline on the buses I was left wondering if the removal of cash payment from the bus network has had a bigger impact than expected. Cash payment was removed in early July 2014 and since then patronage has been falling. I'm not saying it's a major factor - clearly congestion, delays and long journey times are well known and proven factors behind falling ridership. I just wonder if the loss of cash payment has deterred tourists and a proportion of occasional travellers who were happy to pay on the bus but can't be bothered with Oyster Cards or don't have / don't realise contactless bank cards work on buses. I wonder if TfL have done any research into this and whether the results are not what TfL might have hoped for. It may well have put some people off and I think there is no doubt that it has lead to a lot of people with no credit on their oyster being allowed to travel and obviously they won't register. Maybe the decline in patronage isn't as great as TfL seem to think?
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Post by snowman on Feb 19, 2017 19:59:52 GMT
While musing about causes of patronage decline on the buses I was left wondering if the removal of cash payment from the bus network has had a bigger impact than expected. Cash payment was removed in early July 2014 and since then patronage has been falling. I'm not saying it's a major factor - clearly congestion, delays and long journey times are well known and proven factors behind falling ridership. I just wonder if the loss of cash payment has deterred tourists and a proportion of occasional travellers who were happy to pay on the bus but can't be bothered with Oyster Cards or don't have / don't realise contactless bank cards work on buses. I wonder if TfL have done any research into this and whether the results are not what TfL might have hoped for. How many paper passes are used which aren't counted on official figures? Also, I think there is a huge fare avoidance Issue on LT routes. Do we think more, or less, tourists are on Central London routes compared to 20 years ago ? Personally I think less. I agree tourist use has fallen, but was higher about a decade ago when one day travel cards (the paper ones that tourists could easily get from hotels and ticket places) were common. I suspect few people now would recommend the bus as as a quick way to get around London. Even TfLs journey planner will usually give tube and walk for default for many journeys as quickest is default view (rather than bus only) I vaguely remember that near the end of cash fares it was said only 3 or 4% of journeys were cash, but I think Snoggle is probably correct, a great chunk of this was lost as it is now difficult for occasional travellers and tourists to pay (do foreign contactless cards actually work if their limit is in another currency). Even British tourists from other parts of the country often won't know about contactless as it is uncommon elsewhere in UK
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Post by snoggle on Feb 19, 2017 21:34:22 GMT
While musing about causes of patronage decline on the buses I was left wondering if the removal of cash payment from the bus network has had a bigger impact than expected. Cash payment was removed in early July 2014 and since then patronage has been falling. I'm not saying it's a major factor - clearly congestion, delays and long journey times are well known and proven factors behind falling ridership. I just wonder if the loss of cash payment has deterred tourists and a proportion of occasional travellers who were happy to pay on the bus but can't be bothered with Oyster Cards or don't have / don't realise contactless bank cards work on buses. I wonder if TfL have done any research into this and whether the results are not what TfL might have hoped for. How many paper passes are used which aren't counted on official figures? Also, I think there is a huge fare avoidance Issue on LT routes. Do we think more, or less, tourists are on Central London routes compared to 20 years ago ? Personally I think less. A few comments. The published "official figures" are, by their nature, not 100% accurate. The route by route info never tallies with the stated official annual patronage in the Annual Report. Sometimes that number doesn't tally with DfT's published numbers. Confused? You will be. I expect TfL have a factor or adjustment that they apply for paper ticket validation. On the few occasions I see paper tickets presented on suburban routes the drivers do seem to press the ETM button but it would be ludicrous to claim that observation has any relevance for the network as a whole. The NB4L fare evasion issue seems to be understood by TfL in that they are keeping track of it. They claim the fraud levels are only slightly worse than on conventionally operated routes. I can't comment as my bus travel volume is low and I don't use NB4Ls. Similarly I am so rarely in Zone 1 these days that I have no idea about the volume of tourists milling around nor how many are using buses these days. I have seen stuff on twitter where tourists clearly have no idea how to pay for travel on TfL buses nor how to cope with family groups especially where children should really be using Zip Cards. I suspect there is a gap in TfL's publicity for those visitors whether from elsewhere in the UK or from abroad. I am sure TfL publish the info but whether it is easy to find / well targeted at target groups is perhaps another issue.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 21, 2017 23:41:12 GMT
While musing about causes of patronage decline on the buses I was left wondering if the removal of cash payment from the bus network has had a bigger impact than expected. Cash payment was removed in early July 2014 and since then patronage has been falling. I'm not saying it's a major factor - clearly congestion, delays and long journey times are well known and proven factors behind falling ridership. I just wonder if the loss of cash payment has deterred tourists and a proportion of occasional travellers who were happy to pay on the bus but can't be bothered with Oyster Cards or don't have / don't realise contactless bank cards work on buses. I wonder if TfL have done any research into this and whether the results are not what TfL might have hoped for. That is also one factor in the bag. You would be surprised people still want to pay cash on board. Some of those may even live in London and don't use buses, if they don't have a CPC or Oyster, they walk away - or go and look for a cab. It is common on tourist routes for this to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 5:37:16 GMT
There was a scheme launched in the late 80's which led to several key tourist routes being identified and given route branding , identifying two places on the routes that would appeal to potential punters.
I believe that something similar could be done again.
We now have drivers dedicated to routes , so I guess they become route experts . The downside often is they lack knowledge of the wider network. I've witnessed so many drivers being asked simple questions , you know " How do I get to ..... ?" And they don't know... This in itself causes confusion as most faced with this scenario usually get off the bus.
The ladies who traversed all Londons routes and blogged about places of interest en route should have been picked up by TfL , because that is a great marketing idea.
Promoting localised places of interest, hidden gems. We no longer see individual route leaflets, available on the buses themselves. Maybe an on line guide could be published by TfL promoting their routes and the places of interest served on the way. Even if it's just drawing attention to a particular lovely cafe , pub , or park.
This doesn't have to cost much money. The operators can be involved too, identifying particular drivers who could become route champions, so when new drivers start on their route, a briefing pack could be given out with key hints and a list of frequently asked questions etc.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 23, 2017 22:59:52 GMT
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Post by redbus on Feb 23, 2017 23:12:23 GMT
Here's the latest bit of commentary from TfL about declining bus patronage (from Q3 Cust Services and Ops Performance report). to which my response is "well duh!!!!" Exactly, seems pretty obvious. So taking this to its logical conclusion, it makes a nonsense of TfL's hopper ticket argument. If you cut or curtail bus routes and so force people to change buses for journeys they could previously make directly, the resultant extra journey time (and the inconvenience) are likely to mean a noticeable drop in passengers. That the hopper ticket means there is no financial loss in changing buses, won't prevent much of that passenger loss.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 24, 2017 1:09:47 GMT
Here's the latest bit of commentary from TfL about declining bus patronage (from Q3 Cust Services and Ops Performance report). to which my response is "well duh!!!!" I have been saying this on other forums, but one political correct muppet doesn't seem to understand and thinks dwindling buses are good and 20mph zones etc are welcome. Its that same kind of attitude is the reason why people like Donald Trump, UKIP and Brexit have accelerated, purely on constantly ignoring the majority. We are in a VERY time based society, so if bus journeys are going to take long and we get slower buses and measures like speed adaptive technology, then people would desert buses in droves for UBER.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 7:18:31 GMT
Here's the latest bit of commentary from TfL about declining bus patronage (from Q3 Cust Services and Ops Performance report). to which my response is "well duh!!!!" I have been saying this on other forums, but one political correct muppet doesn't seem to understand and thinks dwindling buses are good and 20mph zones etc are welcome. Its that same kind of attitude is the reason why people like Donald Trump, UKIP and Brexit have accelerated, purely on constantly ignoring the majority. We are in a VERY time based society, so if bus journeys are going to take long and we get slower buses and measures like speed adaptive technology, then people would desert buses in droves for UBER. Couldn't agree more. 20 mph limits are simply not stuck to by car drivers. I really think TfL need to do something quite radical to try and stop people deserting buses. Outside of London, the operators there are showing them up. And it's all down to TfL insistence on consistency.
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