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Post by john on Jun 16, 2016 11:52:57 GMT
You mention that, but I have seen this in Catford, at Lewisham Town Hall, a wheelchair user wanted to board the 75, but could not because they refused to move so 3 buses were held up (31, 32 & 33, before she could actually get on TL 34). The Wheelchair use also called the Police too and a don't blame her either. Sorry Pram Users who refuse to give priority to wheelchair users should be arrested and automatically fined for discrimination and banned from travel if they refuse to move. Why should a wheelchair user wait for the next buses, most buses and a lot of recent refurbished buses have a Sky Blue Wheelchair Symbol on the floor. A bit harsh really, I wouldn't say they deserve to be arrested or to be fined, to be honest. If a mother with her sleeping new born is already on board a packed bus, I don't think it's fair to disrupt that in order to let a wheelchair user board - however I do understand it's not fair on the wheelchair user. Now if the child is able to walk and the bus is empty, then I think the pushchair must give way for the wheelchair user. I don't think a written rule will solve this, I think it should all depend on the age of the child and how packed the bus is. It's all down to common sense really. If you can fit both on then do so, if not then you do what you reasonably can to allow the wheelchair user on otherwise you ring up and inform ibus that the bus behind will have to pick them up. As for the incident at Tottenham Hale, that's the official procedure. You arrive at the stop, unload, then deploy the ramp and allow the wheelchair on before boarding. I make sure I do that everytime. Although I will say I find wheelchair users a lot more understanding than buggies. Had numerous occasions already of buggy wars but no issues about wheelchairs. In fact once I forgot I had a buggy on, deployed the ramp and let wheelchair on, meaning buggy mum had to move. Thankfully it all worked out OK!!!
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2016 12:15:15 GMT
I am hoping he does not win. Seriously, the company is not to blame here, they have given priority to the wheelchair user, what else can they do. Call the police in to get a buggy folded? Are we going to have conductors/wardens fine anyone who enters the disabled wheelchair zone. If people in society cant use common sense then what can we do (Obviously go to the Supreme Court) TfL could support by making more spacious lower decks on buses. Anyway this discrimination nonsense arguements have no bounds. I might as well take TfL to court for having priority seats for elderly and pregnant women. Who gives them the right to have the front seat, I wanna sit at the front.... Making more space on buses is not particularly viable - seating capacity has been dropping on buses since low floor buses were introduced so removing more seats is not particularly sensible.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2016 12:27:18 GMT
You mention that, but I have seen this in Catford, at Lewisham Town Hall, a wheelchair user wanted to board the 75, but could not because they refused to move so 3 buses were held up (31, 32 & 33, before she could actually get on TL 34). The Wheelchair use also called the Police too and a don't blame her either. Sorry Pram Users who refuse to give priority to wheelchair users should be arrested and automatically fined for discrimination and banned from travel if they refuse to move. Why should a wheelchair user wait for the next buses, most buses and a lot of recent refurbished buses have a Sky Blue Wheelchair Symbol on the floor. A bit harsh really, I wouldn't say they deserve to be arrested or to be fined, to be honest. If a mother with her sleeping new born is already on board a packed bus, I don't think it's fair to disrupt that in order to let a wheelchair user board - however I do understand it's not fair on the wheelchair user. Now if the child is able to walk and the bus is empty, then I think the pushchair must give way for the wheelchair user. I don't think a written rule will solve this, I think it should all depend on the age of the child and how packed the bus is. The thing is though, it's not fair to refuse a wheelchair user even more so especially as they are already looked down upon in society and are sadly viewed as a nuisance - not only that but a buggy can be folded whereas obviously, a disabled person can't fold their chair. Back in step entrance bus day, whether your child was asleep or not, if you wanted to board the bus you had to fold it. My mum managed it with me and then my brother and that was with shopping as well and on occasion I or my brother be asleep too and she didn't moan. Sadly, someone has let this lazy culture creep in where people who aren't disabled have abused the low floor revolution making it more difficult for those who are to get around town. Simple solution personally is all buggys should be folded regardless and to shorten the wheelchair space down a tad so there is space for one wheelchair and nothing else. It won't happen of course.
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Post by thewintersoldier on Jun 16, 2016 16:08:39 GMT
I saw a wheelchair vs buggy contest at T Hale the other day. Fair number of people waiting for an e/b bus. A 230 comes into the bus station and lady in motorised wheelchair gives a clear hail for the bus and is cleverly waiting away from the front door stop so the driver lines up the centre door by her. Meanwhile young mum with buggy has barged other people out of the way to get first dibs at the front door. The driver obviously sensed what was likely to happen so kept the front door closed and let everyone off through the middle. He then closed the centre doors, deployed the ramp and wheelchair lady got on and reversed neatly into the bay. You could almost see steam coming out of the mum's ears by the time the driver opened the front door. As she got on he said "you'll have to fold it", she said "oh it'll fit". (Oh no it won't I silently said under my breath ). Other people got on and I think buggy mum thought she was going to get away with it but no. Driver didn't move the bus until she got her kid out of the buggy. She then refused to fold the buggy but put it unfolded in the narrow luggage rack which DW Mk2s have. By now every time the driver tried to move off yet more people were running for the bus so the whole exercise took well over 5 minutes. Whether the buggy fell on top of people sitting in the priority seats I can't say. Still fair play to the driver who wasn't going to put up with a lot of old nonsense if the buggy had got on first. If the ruling goes against the bus companies then expect an absolute riot to ensue in London because Transport for All are also supporting the case and they are deeply critical of TfL's approach. They want all buses redesigned and replaced with much larger wheelchair bays. I'd not be astonished if they demand double wheelchair bays on all buses and separate buggy bays to be designated. Quite where this leaves everyone else I don't know. The Deputy Mayor for Transport is a strong supporter of Transport for All and their campaigns so expect to see some pressure on TfL to amend their bus designs and to trial different layouts. After last week's jaunt with baby Arriva on VW1036 (see Metroline thread), today's buggies have the characteristics of CARS super chunky tyres with innertubes, and in some cases disc brakes (not sure if ABS ) - our Quinny buggy is not bus friendly and is so big even a second buggy would struggle to fit in the space. Fortunately Ealing and the E2 is quite civilised, but I could see a stand-off in somewhere like Neasden with Alpha Mum and her perceived 'rights'. People fail to see the big picture of a WHEELCHAIR printed on the flooring of the bus (same people would see a bus blinded for a certain destination, and still ask the driver if going to said destination )... you can't educate stupid, sadly. I would fold my buggy now I've done my A-Level course at evening class learning exactly how to - they make these things too d*mn complex as well. Gangways (especially on B9TL's) are too narrow, ironically it's the curved grab rail designed for the wheelchair user to ring the bell that is too far into the main aisle, meaning exit and entrance for most buggies via the rear doors, and a walk to the front to the Wayfarer to tap in It will be interesting to see the outcome. Some of the kids in the buggies I've seen are three or four and can clearly walk. Teachers complain that some kids that start Reception Class from age four even require NAPPIES - I blame the 'something for nothing' generation that refuse to take any responsibility. (disclaimer: we finally decided on Michelle for the baby's name, as no bus names were appropriate ) Michelle? abbreviation from MMC obviously
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Post by Red Dragon on Jun 16, 2016 16:49:22 GMT
Attachment DeletedWheelchair users should have ultimate priority, as it it difficult/impossible for them to travel otherwise. Buggy users are able to travel in their own cars, or if they need to get the bus, fold it! I'm fine with buggy users taking up the space when the bus isn't busy, but if a wheelchair user needs it, or if the bus is busy, then I'm sorry. But that buggy must be folded. Don't want to? Can't? Off you get! The spaces should be made big enough for wheelchair + 1 buggy though.
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 16, 2016 16:50:25 GMT
After last week's jaunt with baby Arriva on VW1036 (see Metroline thread), today's buggies have the characteristics of CARS super chunky tyres with innertubes, and in some cases disc brakes (not sure if ABS ) - our Quinny buggy is not bus friendly and is so big even a second buggy would struggle to fit in the space. Fortunately Ealing and the E2 is quite civilised, but I could see a stand-off in somewhere like Neasden with Alpha Mum and her perceived 'rights'. People fail to see the big picture of a WHEELCHAIR printed on the flooring of the bus (same people would see a bus blinded for a certain destination, and still ask the driver if going to said destination )... you can't educate stupid, sadly. I would fold my buggy now I've done my A-Level course at evening class learning exactly how to - they make these things too d*mn complex as well. Gangways (especially on B9TL's) are too narrow, ironically it's the curved grab rail designed for the wheelchair user to ring the bell that is too far into the main aisle, meaning exit and entrance for most buggies via the rear doors, and a walk to the front to the Wayfarer to tap in It will be interesting to see the outcome. Some of the kids in the buggies I've seen are three or four and can clearly walk. Teachers complain that some kids that start Reception Class from age four even require NAPPIES - I blame the 'something for nothing' generation that refuse to take any responsibility. (disclaimer: we finally decided on Michelle for the baby's name, as no bus names were appropriate ) Michelle? abbreviation from MMC obviously Major Model Change? She's not too dissimilar to her 58 plate predecessor sister
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Post by Hassaan on Jun 17, 2016 0:31:47 GMT
I saw a wheelchair vs buggy contest at T Hale the other day. Fair number of people waiting for an e/b bus. A 230 comes into the bus station and lady in motorised wheelchair gives a clear hail for the bus and is cleverly waiting away from the front door stop so the driver lines up the centre door by her. Meanwhile young mum with buggy has barged other people out of the way to get first dibs at the front door. The driver obviously sensed what was likely to happen so kept the front door closed and let everyone off through the middle. He then closed the centre doors, deployed the ramp and wheelchair lady got on and reversed neatly into the bay. You could almost see steam coming out of the mum's ears by the time the driver opened the front door. As she got on he said "you'll have to fold it", she said "oh it'll fit". (Oh no it won't I silently said under my breath ). Other people got on and I think buggy mum thought she was going to get away with it but no. Driver didn't move the bus until she got her kid out of the buggy. She then refused to fold the buggy but put it unfolded in the narrow luggage rack which DW Mk2s have. By now every time the driver tried to move off yet more people were running for the bus so the whole exercise took well over 5 minutes. Whether the buggy fell on top of people sitting in the priority seats I can't say. Still fair play to the driver who wasn't going to put up with a lot of old nonsense if the buggy had got on first. If the ruling goes against the bus companies then expect an absolute riot to ensue in London because Transport for All are also supporting the case and they are deeply critical of TfL's approach. They want all buses redesigned and replaced with much larger wheelchair bays. I'd not be astonished if they demand double wheelchair bays on all buses and separate buggy bays to be designated. Quite where this leaves everyone else I don't know. The Deputy Mayor for Transport is a strong supporter of Transport for All and their campaigns so expect to see some pressure on TfL to amend their bus designs and to trial different layouts. After last week's jaunt with baby Arriva on VW1036 (see Metroline thread), today's buggies have the characteristics of CARS super chunky tyres with innertubes, and in some cases disc brakes (not sure if ABS ) - our Quinny buggy is not bus friendly and is so big even a second buggy would struggle to fit in the space. Fortunately Ealing and the E2 is quite civilised, but I could see a stand-off in somewhere like Neasden with Alpha Mum and her perceived 'rights'. People fail to see the big picture of a WHEELCHAIR printed on the flooring of the bus (same people would see a bus blinded for a certain destination, and still ask the driver if going to said destination )... you can't educate stupid, sadly. I would fold my buggy now I've done my A-Level course at evening class learning exactly how to - they make these things too d*mn complex as well. Gangways (especially on B9TL's) are too narrow, ironically it's the curved grab rail designed for the wheelchair user to ring the bell that is too far into the main aisle, meaning exit and entrance for most buggies via the rear doors, and a walk to the front to the Wayfarer to tap in It will be interesting to see the outcome. Some of the kids in the buggies I've seen are three or four and can clearly walk. Teachers complain that some kids that start Reception Class from age four even require NAPPIES - I blame the 'something for nothing' generation that refuse to take any responsibility. (disclaimer: we finally decided on Michelle for the baby's name, as no bus names were appropriate ) I've always noticed that the Gemini 2 of all types (B9TL, DB300 or B5LH) feels like it has a narrower gangway also staircase than other recent double deck bus types. And on most of them the wheelchair space is tiny because an extra row of seats have been squashed in next to them. I'm not sure if the centre handrail is too far out in order to get wheelchairs into the tiny space, but it does end up immediately in line with the floor mounting of the seats on the opposite side. On most other recent bus types they are offset slightly so you get that extra bit of space, which also helps when trying to get out of the way on busy buses to allow people to get off. The short B7TL ALX400s (like used to be on the 123) have the staircase a bit too far back, which again makes the wheelchair space tiny and harder to get out of the way on full buses when people were trying to get off. That is why I love Scania OmniCitys, as the two rows of seats are cantilevered from the side with no floor mount and the wheelchair space is huge. And it provides extra standing space. We were lucky on the very busy 120 we got E400s in 2012, although the allocated 56-reg again have a tiny wheelchair space with the same issues above.
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Post by sid on Jun 19, 2016 5:52:12 GMT
I am hoping he does not win. Seriously, the company is not to blame here, they have given priority to the wheelchair user, what else can they do. Call the police in to get a buggy folded? Are we going to have conductors/wardens fine anyone who enters the disabled wheelchair zone. If people in society cant use common sense then what can we do (Obviously go to the Supreme Court) TfL could support by making more spacious lower decks on buses. Anyway this discrimination nonsense arguements have no bounds. I might as well take TfL to court for having priority seats for elderly and pregnant women. Who gives them the right to have the front seat, I wanna sit at the front.... You mention that, but I have seen this in Catford, at Lewisham Town Hall, a wheelchair user wanted to board the 75, but could not because they refused to move so 3 buses were held up (31, 32 & 33, before she could actually get on TL 34). The Wheelchair use also called the Police too and a don't blame her either. Sorry Pram Users who refuse to give priority to wheelchair users should be arrested and automatically fined for discrimination and banned from travel if they refuse to move. Why should a wheelchair user wait for the next buses, most buses and a lot of recent refurbished buses have a Sky Blue Wheelchair Symbol on the floor. Oh come on do you really think anybody is going to be arrested for refusing to fold a buggy?
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Post by sid on Jun 19, 2016 6:03:01 GMT
I am hoping he does not win. Seriously, the company is not to blame here, they have given priority to the wheelchair user, what else can they do. Call the police in to get a buggy folded? Are we going to have conductors/wardens fine anyone who enters the disabled wheelchair zone. If people in society cant use common sense then what can we do (Obviously go to the Supreme Court) TfL could support by making more spacious lower decks on buses. Anyway this discrimination nonsense arguements have no bounds. I might as well take TfL to court for having priority seats for elderly and pregnant women. Who gives them the right to have the front seat, I wanna sit at the front.... I agree and it has to be said that some wheelchair users are deliberately confrontational. You can't provide more space for wheelchair users without further reducing seating capacity which will result in more disabled people (the vast majority of whom are not wheelchair users) being forced to stand, the whole thing is a vicious circle, you can only try and solve the problem by creating another problem. Either all unfolded buggies are banned, and I can't see that happening, or we accept the current situation because there are no other options. Having allowed a passenger on with an unfolded buggy you can't tell them mid journey to fold the buggy up or get off.
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Post by Red Dragon on Jun 19, 2016 10:52:03 GMT
I am hoping he does not win. Seriously, the company is not to blame here, they have given priority to the wheelchair user, what else can they do. Call the police in to get a buggy folded? Are we going to have conductors/wardens fine anyone who enters the disabled wheelchair zone. If people in society can't use common sense then what can we do (Obviously go to the Supreme Court) TfL could support by making more spacious lower decks on buses. Anyway this discrimination nonsense arguements have no bounds. I might as well take TfL to court for having priority seats for elderly and pregnant women. Who gives them the right to have the front seat, I wanna sit at the front.... I agree and it has to be said that some wheelchair users are deliberately confrontational. You can't provide more space for wheelchair users without further reducing seating capacity which will result in more disabled people (the vast majority of whom are not wheelchair users) being forced to stand, the whole thing is a vicious circle, you can only try and solve the problem by creating another problem. Either all unfolded buggies are banned, and I can't see that happening, or we accept the current situation because there are no other options. Having allowed a passenger on with an unfolded buggy you can't tell them mid journey to fold the buggy up or get off. I think there should be a sign saying something along the lines of " Buggy users may use this area, provided it is not required by a wheelchair user. You must vacate the area when required to do so, as required under section 15 of the TfL Conditions of Carriage, which you agreed to comply with by the usage of your ticket." I know it sounds a bit extreme, but the problem is getting worse and worse, with more and more confrontations. Also, I would divide the space up with thin yellow lines showing the acceptable size for buggies. If it doesn't completely fit within the bx, then it can't be carried. No more mini-Smart Cars with air con and built in radio
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Post by vjaska on Jun 19, 2016 11:37:40 GMT
I am hoping he does not win. Seriously, the company is not to blame here, they have given priority to the wheelchair user, what else can they do. Call the police in to get a buggy folded? Are we going to have conductors/wardens fine anyone who enters the disabled wheelchair zone. If people in society cant use common sense then what can we do (Obviously go to the Supreme Court) TfL could support by making more spacious lower decks on buses. Anyway this discrimination nonsense arguements have no bounds. I might as well take TfL to court for having priority seats for elderly and pregnant women. Who gives them the right to have the front seat, I wanna sit at the front.... I agree and it has to be said that some wheelchair users are deliberately confrontational. You can't provide more space for wheelchair users without further reducing seating capacity which will result in more disabled people (the vast majority of whom are not wheelchair users) being forced to stand, the whole thing is a vicious circle, you can only try and solve the problem by creating another problem. Either all unfolded buggies are banned, and I can't see that happening, or we accept the current situation because there are no other options. Having allowed a passenger on with an unfolded buggy you can't tell them mid journey to fold the buggy up or get off. And what, buggy mum isn't confrontational? You don't need to provide more space for wheelchair users when instead, all that needs to be done is for them to always have priority over everyone else by banning unfolded buggys but like I already said, that probably won't happen. If the situation is left as it is, then disabled people will carry on feeling like second class citizens and I think that's the saddest part of it all that rather than make their life easier with all the other issues they already face in life, we're adding transport to it as well.
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Post by sid on Jun 19, 2016 16:50:31 GMT
I agree and it has to be said that some wheelchair users are deliberately confrontational. You can't provide more space for wheelchair users without further reducing seating capacity which will result in more disabled people (the vast majority of whom are not wheelchair users) being forced to stand, the whole thing is a vicious circle, you can only try and solve the problem by creating another problem. Either all unfolded buggies are banned, and I can't see that happening, or we accept the current situation because there are no other options. Having allowed a passenger on with an unfolded buggy you can't tell them mid journey to fold the buggy up or get off. And what, buggy mum isn't confrontational? You don't need to provide more space for wheelchair users when instead, all that needs to be done is for them to always have priority over everyone else by banning unfolded buggys but like I already said, that probably won't happen. If the situation is left as it is, then disabled people will carry on feeling like second class citizens and I think that's the saddest part of it all that rather than make their life easier with all the other issues they already face in life, we're adding transport to it as well. Most buggy mums are perfectly reasonable, it's the minority that aren't that get noticed. I agree that making the wheelchair bay bigger isn't the answer and the only solution would be to ban all unfolded buggies and clearly that isn't going to happen. Quite honestly this DDA legislation is a dogs dinner!
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Post by planesandtrains on Jun 19, 2016 18:06:35 GMT
Oh this discussoin reminds me, I have to carry my Cello on the bus very frequently and yes a bus can carry Celli safley outside the wheelchair area. But one 110 driver thought it would be a good idea to have me lift my Cello onto the front luggage rack (dart) A good idea until something goes wrong (which many things can and do) At the height of the morning rush it could have fallen and injured someone. As for buggy mums, as soon as they see a bus they think it is their right to own the bus and tell people to barge out of the way. Not a probelm on 'good' area routes like the 33 but as soon as the H37 nears Hounslow I see scuffles break out pretty quickly.
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Post by sid on Jun 19, 2016 18:37:07 GMT
Oh this discussoin reminds me, I have to carry my Cello on the bus very frequently and yes a bus can carry Celli safley outside the wheelchair area. But one 110 driver thought it would be a good idea to have me lift my Cello onto the front luggage rack (dart) A good idea until something goes wrong (which many things can and do) At the height of the morning rush it could have fallen and injured someone. As for buggy mums, as soon as they see a bus they think it is their right to own the bus and tell people to barge out of the way. Not a probelm on 'good' area routes like the 33 but as soon as the H37 nears Hounslow I see scuffles break out pretty quickly. A small minority of buggy mums might behave in that way but it's totally unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush.
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Post by planesandtrains on Jun 19, 2016 20:15:07 GMT
Oh this discussoin reminds me, I have to carry my Cello on the bus very frequently and yes a bus can carry Celli safley outside the wheelchair area. But one 110 driver thought it would be a good idea to have me lift my Cello onto the front luggage rack (dart) A good idea until something goes wrong (which many things can and do) At the height of the morning rush it could have fallen and injured someone. As for buggy mums, as soon as they see a bus they think it is their right to own the bus and tell people to barge out of the way. Not a probelm on 'good' area routes like the 33 but as soon as the H37 nears Hounslow I see scuffles break out pretty quickly. A small minority of buggy mums might behave in that way but it's totally unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush. I was just showing the contrast between different areas.
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