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Post by snowman on Sept 30, 2016 11:18:04 GMT
Consultation launch machine is doing overtime 1. Route 23 would no longer run between Aldwych and Liverpool Street bus station 2. Route 11/N11 would be rerouted via Bishopsgate to Worship Street 3. Route 42 would be rerouted to Liverpool Street bus station 4. Route 78 would be rerouted to Liverpool Street bus station 5. Route 133/N133 would serve Liverpool Street bus station via King William Street, Threadneedle Street and Old Broad Street in both directions 6. Route 153 would be permanently extended to Liverpool Street bus station via Blomfield Street and London Wall 7. Route 214 would be extended from Finsbury Square to Blomfield Street Consultation Link
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Post by danorak on Sept 30, 2016 11:23:15 GMT
On a very quick look at this, it seems very light on justification for shortening the 78.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 30, 2016 11:58:26 GMT
I don't like these proposals at all. Axeing the 23 east of Aldwych is ridiculous. Do TfL have any idea how ridiculously overloaded route 11 is most of the time? You often can't get on it at weekends through the City so the 23 provides relief. I can't believe they are effectively halving the frequency between Aldwych and the City (on the 11 and 23). I am also sceptical about the 78 being cut back. All this "the 42 and 78 parallel each other" nonsense - we have the "core routes" concept coming into fashion. IME the 78 loads pretty well to and from Shoreditch and taking it off Bishopsgate will not be popular with Sunday visitors to Petticoat Lane / Spitalfields / Brick Lane. This just seems like a cut for cutting's sake - another very long established link being removed from an area which sees more and more footfall. This is just perverse logic. I've no great issue with the 153 and 214 returning to the Liverpool St area but disappointed the 214 won't make the bus station. This is just more complication for the public to deal with. Also notice how quickly they want to make the changes to the 11, 23, 42 and 78. In *Jan 2017*!!!! This is a "done deal" regardless of what is said if that there is the genuine deadline. They haven't responded to putting in fixed stops on the K1 or on the 167, 178 and 271 consultations and it's over 6 months since they closed. Do they really expect to do a "fair" consultation on these Central London changes in a matter of weeks in order to then put in place the route contract variations and revised schedules? This is a con not a consulation.
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Post by danorak on Sept 30, 2016 13:20:16 GMT
I don't like these proposals at all. Axeing the 23 east of Aldwych is ridiculous. Do TfL have any idea how ridiculously overloaded route 11 is most of the time? You often can't get on it at weekends through the City so the 23 provides relief. I can't believe they are effectively halving the frequency between Aldwych and the City (on the 11 and 23). I am also sceptical about the 78 being cut back. All this "the 42 and 78 parallel each other" nonsense - we have the "core routes" concept coming into fashion. IME the 78 loads pretty well to and from Shoreditch and taking it off Bishopsgate will not be popular with Sunday visitors to Petticoat Lane / Spitalfields / Brick Lane. This just seems like a cut for cutting's sake - another very long established link being removed from an area which sees more and more footfall. This is just perverse logic. I've no great issue with the 153 and 214 returning to the Liverpool St area but disappointed the 214 won't make the bus station. This is just more complication for the public to deal with. Also notice how quickly they want to make the changes to the 11, 23, 42 and 78. In *Jan 2017*!!!! This is a "done deal" regardless of what is said if that there is the genuine deadline. They haven't responded to putting in fixed stops on the K1 or on the 167, 178 and 271 consultations and it's over 6 months since they closed. Do they really expect to do a "fair" consultation on these Central London changes in a matter of weeks in order to then put in place the route contract variations and revised schedules? This is a con not a consulation. If patronage on the 11/23 corridor has fallen as TfL suggest, I suspect this is mainly due to roadworks. I tried going from Aldwych to Bank and had to abandon my journey by Blackfriars as we simply weren't getting anywhere. Haven't I seen it reported that speeds on the 11 have fallen to an absurd level?
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Post by vjaska on Sept 30, 2016 13:38:58 GMT
I don't like these proposals at all. Axeing the 23 east of Aldwych is ridiculous. Do TfL have any idea how ridiculously overloaded route 11 is most of the time? You often can't get on it at weekends through the City so the 23 provides relief. I can't believe they are effectively halving the frequency between Aldwych and the City (on the 11 and 23). I am also sceptical about the 78 being cut back. All this "the 42 and 78 parallel each other" nonsense - we have the "core routes" concept coming into fashion. IME the 78 loads pretty well to and from Shoreditch and taking it off Bishopsgate will not be popular with Sunday visitors to Petticoat Lane / Spitalfields / Brick Lane. This just seems like a cut for cutting's sake - another very long established link being removed from an area which sees more and more footfall. This is just perverse logic. I've no great issue with the 153 and 214 returning to the Liverpool St area but disappointed the 214 won't make the bus station. This is just more complication for the public to deal with. Also notice how quickly they want to make the changes to the 11, 23, 42 and 78. In *Jan 2017*!!!! This is a "done deal" regardless of what is said if that there is the genuine deadline. They haven't responded to putting in fixed stops on the K1 or on the 167, 178 and 271 consultations and it's over 6 months since they closed. Do they really expect to do a "fair" consultation on these Central London changes in a matter of weeks in order to then put in place the route contract variations and revised schedules? This is a con not a consulation. If patronage on the 11/23 corridor has fallen as TfL suggest, I suspect this is mainly due to roadworks. I tried going from Aldwych to Bank and had to abandon my journey by Blackfriars as we simply weren't getting anywhere. Haven't I seen it reported that speeds on the 11 have fallen to an absurd level? The new traffic lights at Ludgate Circus since the cycle highways were installed are ridiculous for traffic crossing east to west and west to east which I suspect is causing so much grief through that section - just 5 seconds to get through Like come on, it's a busy throughfare for goodness sake!
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Post by vjaska on Sept 30, 2016 13:49:34 GMT
I don't like these proposals at all. Axeing the 23 east of Aldwych is ridiculous. Do TfL have any idea how ridiculously overloaded route 11 is most of the time? You often can't get on it at weekends through the City so the 23 provides relief. I can't believe they are effectively halving the frequency between Aldwych and the City (on the 11 and 23). I am also sceptical about the 78 being cut back. All this "the 42 and 78 parallel each other" nonsense - we have the "core routes" concept coming into fashion. IME the 78 loads pretty well to and from Shoreditch and taking it off Bishopsgate will not be popular with Sunday visitors to Petticoat Lane / Spitalfields / Brick Lane. This just seems like a cut for cutting's sake - another very long established link being removed from an area which sees more and more footfall. This is just perverse logic. I've no great issue with the 153 and 214 returning to the Liverpool St area but disappointed the 214 won't make the bus station. This is just more complication for the public to deal with. Also notice how quickly they want to make the changes to the 11, 23, 42 and 78. In *Jan 2017*!!!! This is a "done deal" regardless of what is said if that there is the genuine deadline. They haven't responded to putting in fixed stops on the K1 or on the 167, 178 and 271 consultations and it's over 6 months since they closed. Do they really expect to do a "fair" consultation on these Central London changes in a matter of weeks in order to then put in place the route contract variations and revised schedules? This is a con not a consulation. I have to agree that most of these changes are barmy at best - it's all very well bowing down to the cycle community in regards to the upcoming remodelling of Bank junction but it shouldn't be at the expense of the other bus routes running through and as mentioned, the 11 leaves Liverpool Street very busy - as I've always said, just because a train line gets built doesn't mean you simply axe any parallel bus route that runs alongside it. I also think it's absurd that the 11 is being shunted out of the bus station to Wormwood Street which not only isn't ideal given it, the 23 & 133 are the busier routes at Liverpool Street Bus Station but adds on needless time to an already long route that suffers due to large amounts of traffic. I'm also baffled by this need of TfL of re-routing every bus route from South London away from Shoreditch - why can't the 78 carry on doing what it does. I understand Bishopsgate can be busy but it seems laughable that at present, the 47 wouldn't be able to manage it & the 35 soon won't be heading there even if those changes are supposedly temporary. The 153 & 214 changes are ok though it seems silly to leave the 214 terminating just short of Liverpool Street Bus Station - either leave it at Finsbury Square or have it run to the bus station.
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Post by danorak on Sept 30, 2016 14:18:56 GMT
I don't like these proposals at all. Axeing the 23 east of Aldwych is ridiculous. Do TfL have any idea how ridiculously overloaded route 11 is most of the time? You often can't get on it at weekends through the City so the 23 provides relief. I can't believe they are effectively halving the frequency between Aldwych and the City (on the 11 and 23). I am also sceptical about the 78 being cut back. All this "the 42 and 78 parallel each other" nonsense - we have the "core routes" concept coming into fashion. IME the 78 loads pretty well to and from Shoreditch and taking it off Bishopsgate will not be popular with Sunday visitors to Petticoat Lane / Spitalfields / Brick Lane. This just seems like a cut for cutting's sake - another very long established link being removed from an area which sees more and more footfall. This is just perverse logic. I've no great issue with the 153 and 214 returning to the Liverpool St area but disappointed the 214 won't make the bus station. This is just more complication for the public to deal with. Also notice how quickly they want to make the changes to the 11, 23, 42 and 78. In *Jan 2017*!!!! This is a "done deal" regardless of what is said if that there is the genuine deadline. They haven't responded to putting in fixed stops on the K1 or on the 167, 178 and 271 consultations and it's over 6 months since they closed. Do they really expect to do a "fair" consultation on these Central London changes in a matter of weeks in order to then put in place the route contract variations and revised schedules? This is a con not a consulation. I wonder if the indecent haste is because this is only part one of a wider set of changes. The consultation says that the 23 is busiest between Marble Arch and Westbourne Park - in that case, I have great doubts that the Marble Arch to Aldwych section would survive pedestrianisation of Oxford Street and the wider Crossrail changes.
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Post by lonmark on Sept 30, 2016 14:23:53 GMT
I wondering when this change is go ahead, then route 47 will return to Shoreditch?
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Post by vjaska on Sept 30, 2016 14:58:41 GMT
I don't like these proposals at all. Axeing the 23 east of Aldwych is ridiculous. Do TfL have any idea how ridiculously overloaded route 11 is most of the time? You often can't get on it at weekends through the City so the 23 provides relief. I can't believe they are effectively halving the frequency between Aldwych and the City (on the 11 and 23). I am also sceptical about the 78 being cut back. All this "the 42 and 78 parallel each other" nonsense - we have the "core routes" concept coming into fashion. IME the 78 loads pretty well to and from Shoreditch and taking it off Bishopsgate will not be popular with Sunday visitors to Petticoat Lane / Spitalfields / Brick Lane. This just seems like a cut for cutting's sake - another very long established link being removed from an area which sees more and more footfall. This is just perverse logic. I've no great issue with the 153 and 214 returning to the Liverpool St area but disappointed the 214 won't make the bus station. This is just more complication for the public to deal with. Also notice how quickly they want to make the changes to the 11, 23, 42 and 78. In *Jan 2017*!!!! This is a "done deal" regardless of what is said if that there is the genuine deadline. They haven't responded to putting in fixed stops on the K1 or on the 167, 178 and 271 consultations and it's over 6 months since they closed. Do they really expect to do a "fair" consultation on these Central London changes in a matter of weeks in order to then put in place the route contract variations and revised schedules? This is a con not a consulation. I wonder if the indecent haste is because this is only part one of a wider set of changes. The consultation says that the 23 is busiest between Marble Arch and Westbourne Park - in that case, I have great doubts that the Marble Arch to Aldwych section would survive pedestrianisation of Oxford Street and the wider Crossrail changes. Unless the 23 is set for a reroute via Green Park along the Piccadilly - of course, that may have further consequences on other routes?
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 30, 2016 15:05:00 GMT
The consultation has become unavailable, wonder what's being edited
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Post by routew15 on Sept 30, 2016 16:38:49 GMT
I think there is a desire from bus passengers to reach as far as they can get before having to change a bus than there is to reach a central point like Oxford Circus, Trafalgar Square, Aldwych or Euston to change to the bus they need.
Hopping buses is not for everyone...
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Post by snoggle on Sept 30, 2016 16:47:15 GMT
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Post by routew15 on Sept 30, 2016 17:53:34 GMT
Should of checked this thread before celebrating the reduction in buses on Wormwood Street. The proposals do not seem to provide any benefits to bus passengers the mentioned routes (except the 133) . The 11 will be subjected to unnecessary traffic delays The curtailment of the 23 will end direct cross city bus services the 23 is the last route from Oxford Street to reach the east end of town. The 42 changes will not make interchange for continuing passengers as simple as it currently is. Why does the 78 and the 42 both need to serve the bus station one should continue to serve Shoreditch so passengers along Tower Bridge road can still reach the area. The 133 idea works well now should continue as existing. The 153 rerouting seems only beneficial to passengers traveling from Liverpool Street. I can't imagine a journey is faster by bus from Bloomfield Street to Liverpool Street station than it is by foot. If the 271 is not going back to Liverpool Street then I don't think the 214 should either. I'm trying very hard to see the benefits of these ideas, anyone note one (besides the 133) ?
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Post by rmz19 on Sept 30, 2016 18:05:45 GMT
I don't know what TFL have been drinking lately, but It's a mystery how TFL have determined that patronage along the Aldwych - Liverpool Street has fallen, from what I regularly see the 11/15/23 are all rammed along this section and the former routes need as much as help as they can get. It's absolutely ridiculous that the 23 is being cut to Aldwych, as a result the 11 and 15 will be completely rammed.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 30, 2016 18:12:27 GMT
Should of checked this thread before celebrating the reduction in buses on Wormwood Street. The proposals do not seem to provide any benefits to bus passengers the mentioned routes (except the 133) . The 11 will be subjected to unnecessary traffic delays The curtailment of the 23 will end direct cross city bus services the 23 is the last route from Oxford Street to reach the east end of town. The 42 changes will not make interchange for continuing passengers as simple as it currently is. Why does the 78 and the 42 both need to serve the bus station one should continue to serve Shoreditch so passengers along Tower Bridge road can still reach the area. The 133 idea works well now should continue as existing. The 153 rerouting seems only beneficial to passengers traveling from Liverpool Street. I can't imagine a journey is faster by bus from Bloomfield Street to Liverpool Street station than it is by foot. If the 271 is not going back to Liverpool Street then I don't think the 214 should either. I'm trying very hard to see the benefits of these ideas, anyone note one (besides the 133) ? Err surely the 25 and 55 run from Oxford St to the "east end of town"? If the 8 returns to Oxford Circus then that will too. It's Regent St and Haymarket that loses the direct link into the City. Of course we don't know what's happening with routes 3 and 15 in terms of their termini in Central London. The implication from announcing the 23's "proposed" (yeah yeah) curtailment is that TfL have already decided that route 13 will not reach Aldwych and will be rerouted even though that consultation is not yet closed. It's the only way enough stand space is released.
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