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Post by bus12451 on Mar 1, 2022 17:20:00 GMT
I didn’t think the 180 changes were even happening anymore? The changes to the 180 I think are utterly ridiculous, it should be kept as it is, a handy trunk route linking Thamesmead & Abbey Wood with Greenwich and Lewisham via Woolwich & Charlton, the 177 won’t be able to cope on its own, it’s not a positive change that will service the community at all it’s butchering a route for the sake of it. As I have said before (to you I believe), there’s not a whole lot wrong with the 180 change really. More 177s might be nice, also I’m unconvinced that the 180 is the best route for Erith Quarry - might be better to send the 428 there instead, and have the 469 follow the 99 from Upper Belvedere to Erith for the service linking Quarry to Abbey Wood. Terminate the 180 at Erith instead of the 428. Not convinced West Street in Erith needs three routes, neither am I convinced Picardy Street needs more than the 401. But this is ground we have crossed many times before and you won’t agree! I guess it was decided to extend the 180 to Erith Quarry given it serves a major area of employment in Belvedere and various schools on and near Yarnton Way.
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Post by beaver14uk on Mar 1, 2022 17:46:43 GMT
Yes the change is happening. quote author=" route53" source="/post/682914/thread" timestamp="1646152301"]I didn’t think the 180 changes were even happening anymore? The changes to the 180 I think are utterly ridiculous, it should be kept as it is, a handy trunk route linking Thamesmead & Abbey Wood with Greenwich and Lewisham via Woolwich & Charlton, the 177 won’t be able to cope on its own, it’s not a positive change that will service the community at all it’s butchering a route for the sake of it.[/quote]
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Post by beaver14uk on Mar 1, 2022 17:51:36 GMT
Yes not happening. Doesn't need it anyway. quote author=" DT 11" source="/post/682840/thread" timestamp="1646089568"] Do you know if the 244 will still be converted to Double-deckers once the Elizabeth line opens and will the 129 have a PVR increase. The 244 is not getting double decked.[/quote]
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Post by route53 on Mar 1, 2022 18:04:47 GMT
As I have said before (to you I believe), there’s not a whole lot wrong with the 180 change really. More 177s might be nice, also I’m unconvinced that the 180 is the best route for Erith Quarry - might be better to send the 428 there instead, and have the 469 follow the 99 from Upper Belvedere to Erith for the service linking Quarry to Abbey Wood. Terminate the 180 at Erith instead of the 428. Not convinced West Street in Erith needs three routes, neither am I convinced Picardy Street needs more than the 401. But this is ground we have crossed many times before and you won’t agree! I guess it was decided to extend the 180 to Erith Quarry given it serves a major area of employment in Belvedere and various schools on and near Yarnton Way. I’m sure there’s plenty of buses that can cover that, Lewisham is a much more important destination
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Post by twobellstogo on Mar 1, 2022 18:17:55 GMT
As I have said before (to you I believe), there’s not a whole lot wrong with the 180 change really. More 177s might be nice, also I’m unconvinced that the 180 is the best route for Erith Quarry - might be better to send the 428 there instead, and have the 469 follow the 99 from Upper Belvedere to Erith for the service linking Quarry to Abbey Wood. Terminate the 180 at Erith instead of the 428. Not convinced West Street in Erith needs three routes, neither am I convinced Picardy Street needs more than the 401. But this is ground we have crossed many times before and you won’t agree! I guess it was decided to extend the 180 to Erith Quarry given it serves a major area of employment in Belvedere and various schools on and near Yarnton Way. Yes - that’s plausible and something I hadn’t thought of. The nearest secondary to the Quarry as I am sure you are aware is a church school which may not appeal to everyone, and the walk to King Henry doesn’t necessarily appeal, particularly along bleak Birch Walk.
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Post by twobellstogo on Mar 1, 2022 18:24:05 GMT
I guess it was decided to extend the 180 to Erith Quarry given it serves a major area of employment in Belvedere and various schools on and near Yarnton Way. I’m sure there’s plenty of buses that can cover that, Lewisham is a much more important destination The 129 is doing much of the 180’s western end, which also has the advantage of taking a terminating route out of Greenwich, so there’s just the 286 to find a home for once the pedestrianisation happens (assuming it’s still on?) If you are travelling from Woolwich town centre to Lewisham by bus you’d be much better advised to get a 54 or a 122 rather than a meandering 180.
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Post by route53 on Mar 1, 2022 18:56:35 GMT
I’m sure there’s plenty of buses that can cover that, Lewisham is a much more important destination The 129 is doing much of the 180’s western end, which also has the advantage of taking a terminating route out of Greenwich, so there’s just the 286 to find a home for once the pedestrianisation happens (assuming it’s still on?) If you are travelling from Woolwich town centre to Lewisham by bus you’d be much better advised to get a 54 or a 122 rather than a meandering 180. Not really since the 129 doesn’t serve Charlton which can be heavily congested, most of the locals are against this change yet the MP does nothing to address these concerns, yes Woolwich has alternatives to get to Lewisham but the 122 is far from a good alternative it’s far too circuitous and is often caught up in traffic from Eltham to Lewisham, the 54 is admittedly a better alternative. I just feel the benefits of this are minimal, serving a small area in Belvedere is minor in comparison to breaking long standing and a busy link, cons outweigh the pros, Abbey Wood & Woolwich will siphon off customers headed to North Greenwich anyway once CrossRail opens. I’d be for a split (180: Lewisham-Plumstead, new number 418 or 480: NG to Erith) worse case scenario Thamesmead & Abbey Wood passengers will change at Plumstead. Removing the 129 from Greenwich is only another benefit it is extended to an area that is currently unconnected to NG/02 centre, may be better to extend it further afield like Catford or Beckenham
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Post by bus12451 on Mar 1, 2022 19:19:48 GMT
I guess it was decided to extend the 180 to Erith Quarry given it serves a major area of employment in Belvedere and various schools on and near Yarnton Way. I’m sure there’s plenty of buses that can cover that, Lewisham is a much more important destination As the B11 is being cut back to Yarnton Way, maybe it could have gone to Erith Quarry from Alsike Road heading east in place of the 180. Other than that, I can't think of any other route that can provide the same link without being too indirect. I never said Lewisham isn't an important destination, like yourself, I would have preferred it to continue to Lewisham (with or without the Erith extension) although traffic conditions have worsened alot ever since the segregated cycle lane was installed between Greenwich and Charlton so I don't use the 180 as much to get to Lewisham anymore, but I do still use it when going to Greenwich.
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Post by route53 on Mar 1, 2022 19:21:50 GMT
I’m sure there’s plenty of buses that can cover that, Lewisham is a much more important destination As the B11 is being cut back to Yarnton Way, maybe it could have gone to Erith Quarry from Alsike Road heading east in place of the 180. Other than that, I can't think of any other route that can provide the same link without being too indirect. I never said Lewisham isn't an important destination, like yourself, I would have preferred it to continue to Lewisham (with or without the Erith extension) although traffic conditions have worsened alot ever since the segregated cycle lane was installed between Greenwich and Charlton so I don't use the 180 as much to get to Lewisham anymore, but I do still use it when going to Greenwich. I know you never said it wasn’t important :-) I was just saying that it was
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Post by busman on Mar 1, 2022 23:19:46 GMT
I didn’t think the 180 changes were even happening anymore? The changes to the 180 I think are utterly ridiculous, it should be kept as it is, a handy trunk route linking Thamesmead & Abbey Wood with Greenwich and Lewisham via Woolwich & Charlton, the 177 won’t be able to cope on its own, it’s not a positive change that will service the community at all it’s butchering a route for the sake of it. As someone also local to the area, I respectfully disagree that all the changes to the 180 are ridiculous. It’s a bit of a mixed bag imho. Starting with the worst bit - at certain times of the day the 177 might get hammered between Cutty Sark and Woolwich. However there does appear to be excess capacity at certain times of the day along that corridor and now I’m not so sure that it isn’t something that can’t be overcome with a slight increase in frequency for the 177 at crunch times. The huge positive is that Plumstead gets a direct bus to IKEA, Millennium Village, the O2 and the Jubilee line. Personally, that will get me out of the car/taxi. I’m not so concerned about the loss of a bus to Lewisham as its faster and very easy to change at Woolwich Public Market for a 54 or 122. The odd bit is the whole Erith Quarry extension. It feels like the route should terminate at Erith Town Centre, but has been extended because a developer has paid for a bus service linking the development to the Lizzie Line at Abbey Wood. It’s an odd one, but if it’s well used at that end over the 99 or SouthEastern, TfL will be proven right.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 2, 2022 2:26:52 GMT
I didn’t think the 180 changes were even happening anymore? The changes to the 180 I think are utterly ridiculous, it should be kept as it is, a handy trunk route linking Thamesmead & Abbey Wood with Greenwich and Lewisham via Woolwich & Charlton, the 177 won’t be able to cope on its own, it’s not a positive change that will service the community at all it’s butchering a route for the sake of it. As someone also local to the area, I respectfully disagree that all the changes to the 180 are ridiculous. It’s a bit of a mixed bag imho. Starting with the worst bit - at certain times of the day the 177 might get hammered between Cutty Sark and Woolwich. However there does appear to be excess capacity at certain times of the day along that corridor and now I’m not so sure that it isn’t something that can’t be overcome with a slight increase in frequency for the 177 at crunch times. The huge positive is that Plumstead gets a direct bus to IKEA, Millennium Village, the O2 and the Jubilee line. Personally, that will get me out of the car/taxi. I’m not so concerned about the loss of a bus to Lewisham as its faster and very easy to change at Woolwich Public Market for a 54 or 122. The odd bit is the whole Erith Quarry extension. It feels like the route should terminate at Erith Town Centre, but has been extended because a developer has paid for a bus service linking the development to the Lizzie Line at Abbey Wood. It’s an odd one, but if it’s well used at that end over the 99 or SouthEastern, TfL will be proven right. I think a mixed bag is a good description of the 180 change though I'm not so forgiving in regards to the 177 which personally, would still need another bus route alongside especially given the 177's own operating conditions and links it's provides but I'm not local so my opinion shouldn't count as much
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Post by route53 on Mar 2, 2022 6:26:51 GMT
I didn’t think the 180 changes were even happening anymore? The changes to the 180 I think are utterly ridiculous, it should be kept as it is, a handy trunk route linking Thamesmead & Abbey Wood with Greenwich and Lewisham via Woolwich & Charlton, the 177 won’t be able to cope on its own, it’s not a positive change that will service the community at all it’s butchering a route for the sake of it. As someone also local to the area, I respectfully disagree that all the changes to the 180 are ridiculous. It’s a bit of a mixed bag imho. Starting with the worst bit - at certain times of the day the 177 might get hammered between Cutty Sark and Woolwich. However there does appear to be excess capacity at certain times of the day along that corridor and now I’m not so sure that it isn’t something that can’t be overcome with a slight increase in frequency for the 177 at crunch times. The huge positive is that Plumstead gets a direct bus to IKEA, Millennium Village, the O2 and the Jubilee line. Personally, that will get me out of the car/taxi. I’m not so concerned about the loss of a bus to Lewisham as its faster and very easy to change at Woolwich Public Market for a 54 or 122. The odd bit is the whole Erith Quarry extension. It feels like the route should terminate at Erith Town Centre, but has been extended because a developer has paid for a bus service linking the development to the Lizzie Line at Abbey Wood. It’s an odd one, but if it’s well used at that end over the 99 or SouthEastern, TfL will be proven right. If you live in Plumstead then I’m surprised that you’ve not noticed that the 472 has been your main link to North Greenwich for the last twenty years, albeit from the Garage, but still a link nonetheless. That might be fine and dandy for you but I can see why there are concerns about this change, and still think it’s a bad idea, it’s more logical to extend the 99 to NG or the 472 to Erith.
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Post by busman on Mar 2, 2022 10:50:04 GMT
As someone also local to the area, I respectfully disagree that all the changes to the 180 are ridiculous. It’s a bit of a mixed bag imho. Starting with the worst bit - at certain times of the day the 177 might get hammered between Cutty Sark and Woolwich. However there does appear to be excess capacity at certain times of the day along that corridor and now I’m not so sure that it isn’t something that can’t be overcome with a slight increase in frequency for the 177 at crunch times. The huge positive is that Plumstead gets a direct bus to IKEA, Millennium Village, the O2 and the Jubilee line. Personally, that will get me out of the car/taxi. I’m not so concerned about the loss of a bus to Lewisham as its faster and very easy to change at Woolwich Public Market for a 54 or 122. The odd bit is the whole Erith Quarry extension. It feels like the route should terminate at Erith Town Centre, but has been extended because a developer has paid for a bus service linking the development to the Lizzie Line at Abbey Wood. It’s an odd one, but if it’s well used at that end over the 99 or SouthEastern, TfL will be proven right. If you live in Plumstead then I’m surprised that you’ve not noticed that the 472 has been your main link to North Greenwich for the last twenty years, albeit from the Garage, but still a link nonetheless. That might be fine and dandy for you but I can see why there are concerns about this change, and still think it’s a bad idea, it’s more logical to extend the 99 to NG or the 472 to Erith. Sorry, you cannot deny there is excess capacity much of the time between Cutty Sark and Woolwich. Is it right for TfL to continue to send empty buses down a corridor or do they deploy resources more efficiently? Wait times to and from Greenwich will increase, but the main damage to the attractiveness of bus travel has been inflicted by the council butchering the main road and making journey times painfully slow even when there is no traffic at all on a two lane road. You note that Plumstead doesn’t only consist of the area around Plumstead Garage, so most of Plumstead and all of Abbey Wood currently needs a change of bus to get to North Greenwich. I’m not saying that the changes are brilliant, but looking at the bigger picture this corner of London isn’t doing too badly. We retain a direct bus to Greenwich town centre. There is now the 301 which will help the 472 once the Lizzie Line opens. The 472 will be extended to Abbey Wood Station suddenly giving that area 2 links to Jubilee Line. I was a little surprised that the 180 wasn’t diverted at Angerstein Roundabout instead, but shadowing the 472 is a smart way to mitigate the service reduction for the 472 and also links Plumstead and Abbey Wood with more amenities. It would be very convoluted to send the 472 to Erith via Abbey Wood and extending the 99 wouldn’t have the same benefits as the 180 extension. The 180 to Erith makes sense as it finally provides Yarnton Way with a direct bus to Erith and opens up access to places of employment in the Church Manorway Industrial Estate. I guess we will agree to disagree. I’m seeing the positives because this change is happening and ultimately the net impact is that we see an increase in the number key local destinations directly served by a bus or train.
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Post by route53 on Mar 2, 2022 13:11:24 GMT
If you live in Plumstead then I’m surprised that you’ve not noticed that the 472 has been your main link to North Greenwich for the last twenty years, albeit from the Garage, but still a link nonetheless. That might be fine and dandy for you but I can see why there are concerns about this change, and still think it’s a bad idea, it’s more logical to extend the 99 to NG or the 472 to Erith. Sorry, you cannot deny there is excess capacity much of the time between Cutty Sark and Woolwich. Is it right for TfL to continue to send empty buses down a corridor or do they deploy resources more efficiently? Wait times to and from Greenwich will increase, but the main damage to the attractiveness of bus travel has been inflicted by the council butchering the main road and making journey times painfully slow even when there is no traffic at all on a two lane road. You note that Plumstead doesn’t only consist of the area around Plumstead Garage, so most of Plumstead and all of Abbey Wood currently needs a change of bus to get to North Greenwich. I’m not saying that the changes are brilliant, but looking at the bigger picture this corner of London isn’t doing too badly. We retain a direct bus to Greenwich town centre. There is now the 301 which will help the 472 once the Lizzie Line opens. The 472 will be extended to Abbey Wood Station suddenly giving that area 2 links to Jubilee Line. I was a little surprised that the 180 wasn’t diverted at Angerstein Roundabout instead, but shadowing the 472 is a smart way to mitigate the service reduction for the 472 and also links Plumstead and Abbey Wood with more amenities. It would be very convoluted to send the 472 to Erith via Abbey Wood and extending the 99 wouldn’t have the same benefits as the 180 extension. The 180 to Erith makes sense as it finally provides Yarnton Way with a direct bus to Erith and opens up access to places of employment in the Church Manorway Industrial Estate. I guess we will agree to disagree. I’m seeing the positives because this change is happening and ultimately the net impact is that we see an increase in the number key local destinations directly served by a bus or train. Woolwich to Cutty Sark is rammed, neither the 177 or 180 are ever empty, I don’t know where you’re getting this from, the 177 will be more rammed, the 180 changes only benefits a small area, while other others will lose out, removing the 180 from Lewisham & Greenwich will surely increase care usage in a area that is already in need of less cars, it’s no coincidence that this change hasn’t exactly gone down well with locals, in gaining a link to Erith which isn’t exactly the centre of the Earth they are losing links to Greenwich and Lewisham both are large urban centres, time will tell if this change will have any positive outcomes but I doubt it will. Sure a few people can work in the industrial estate, what about existing 180 passengers who work in Lewisham? And who live in Belvedere? Which is a much larger area of employment.
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Post by route53 on Mar 2, 2022 13:28:48 GMT
Sorry, you cannot deny there is excess capacity much of the time between Cutty Sark and Woolwich. Is it right for TfL to continue to send empty buses down a corridor or do they deploy resources more efficiently? Wait times to and from Greenwich will increase, but the main damage to the attractiveness of bus travel has been inflicted by the council butchering the main road and making journey times painfully slow even when there is no traffic at all on a two lane road. You note that Plumstead doesn’t only consist of the area around Plumstead Garage, so most of Plumstead and all of Abbey Wood currently needs a change of bus to get to North Greenwich. I’m not saying that the changes are brilliant, but looking at the bigger picture this corner of London isn’t doing too badly. We retain a direct bus to Greenwich town centre. There is now the 301 which will help the 472 once the Lizzie Line opens. The 472 will be extended to Abbey Wood Station suddenly giving that area 2 links to Jubilee Line. I was a little surprised that the 180 wasn’t diverted at Angerstein Roundabout instead, but shadowing the 472 is a smart way to mitigate the service reduction for the 472 and also links Plumstead and Abbey Wood with more amenities. It would be very convoluted to send the 472 to Erith via Abbey Wood and extending the 99 wouldn’t have the same benefits as the 180 extension. The 180 to Erith makes sense as it finally provides Yarnton Way with a direct bus to Erith and opens up access to places of employment in the Church Manorway Industrial Estate. I guess we will agree to disagree. I’m seeing the positives because this change is happening and ultimately the net impact is that we see an increase in the number key local destinations directly served by a bus or train. Woolwich to Cutty Sark is rammed, neither the 177 or 180 are ever empty, I don’t know where you’re getting this from, the 177 will be more rammed, the 180 changes only benefits a small area, while other others will lose out, removing the 180 from Lewisham & Greenwich will surely increase care usage in a area that is already in need of less cars, it’s no coincidence that this change hasn’t exactly gone down well with locals, in gaining a link to Erith which isn’t exactly the centre of the Earth they are losing links to Greenwich and Lewisham both are large urban centres, time will tell if this change will have any positive outcomes but I doubt it will, I wouldn’t be surprised if TfL in a couple of years to save money decides to cut either the 180 or 472 citing reasons as “route duplication” the way things are looking, I’ve stated my reasons and I won’t change my mind.
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