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Post by snoggle on Jul 19, 2018 17:06:34 GMT
Understand the arguments you put forward. However they miss the point if you are TfL. Holborn Station reconstruction will require a large worksite on Drake St. Traffic lanes may be reduced to just a single lane. There will be an enormous number of lorry movements to remove spoil. Therefore TfL will want as many buses out of the area as possible. I can see them applying for a change to the junction design at Southampton Row to allow the 243 to use the contraflow bus lane and then turn left to head towards Aldwych. That removes them from the vicinity of the worksite. I can see TfL wanting the 98 gone completely - remember it was not retained via Wigmore St in the Oxford St plans. Dumping the 25 at Holborn Circus takes another large number of bus movements away entirely. TfL will not want a replacement that retains a similar number of movements. They will no doubt argue that retaining the 8 and 521 is the most the restricted junction capacity onto High Holborn can cope with. So TfL are never going to countenance your plan. On the subject of the 48 then I am afraid it is doomed. TfL are going to take it completely without replacement. The 242 won't be extended anywhere. If TfL could get away with removing the 242 altogether then I think they would. I'd not be shocked to see a little schemette being dreamed up which does something like W15 Whipps Cross Roundabout to Homerton Hospital then 242 loop round Clapton Park estate then via 242 to Dalston Junction Station. W20(?) Cogan Avenue Estate to Stratford City taking over part of the 339 339 Shadwell to Stratford International Forget about the St Pauls to Dalston Junction section of the 242 altogether. Night service scrapped too and no replacement on the rerouted W15. Frequencies of the restructured routes changed (reduced) to reflect demand levels on the respective sections. I do not see the 55 gaining any frequency enhancement because the restructured gyratory at Walthamstow Central will not cope with a bus at 5-6 min headways nor is there sufficient stand space. In fact I would not be shocked to see the 55 have "a 38" done to it - alternate buses turn at Leyton Garage as now and the other half of the service (so about every 10 mins) goes to Walthamstow Central. That solves the capacity problems, avoids overbussing Bakers Arms - WW Central and means Stagecoach still have some operational flexibility about how to manage delays on the 55 by backplating buses etc at Leyton Garage. Apologies for being Mr Grump and Mr Disagreable but I'm just getting into the TfL "we must kill the bus network and make it as sh*t as possible" way of thinking.   |
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jul 19, 2018 17:17:22 GMT
o sorry I thought the 98 had returned to Red Lion Square. Err 98 does go Holborn for a while now  Space is booked for the 3 I think, but so far no sign of it going there! Also watch TfL still remove buses from Oxford Street.... As ABBA sung - Money, Money, Money . We will not give up the 48 without a fight though. I heard Hackney council are not happy. I don't understand why near empty overbussed 242 gets away with it and instead useful 48 gets targetted -_- |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 19, 2018 18:13:38 GMT
I don't understand why near empty overbussed 242 gets away with it and instead useful 48 gets targetted -_- Easy to answer that one. The 242 goes to a hospital and we all knows hospitals must have buses as a priority over everything else. Also Assembly Member Jennette Arnold has harrassed umpteen Mayors about the service quality on the 242, especially at Clapton Park, so it is on her radar. The 48 is not as politically sensitive as the 242 is. |
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Post by rhys on Jul 19, 2018 18:31:05 GMT
o sorry I thought the 98 had returned to Red Lion Square. I don't understand why near empty overbussed 242 gets away with it and instead useful 48 gets targetted -_- I don't think the 242 is overbussed, personally. I've use the route often, when visiting a mate up in Clapton Park. Anytime I use the route, it is often jam packed, especially between Liverpool Street and Homerton. I'm still yet to see a near empty 242, however, I will say that I only tend to use the route during peak hours/night hours. So I guess it may be different during other hours? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 19:24:08 GMT
The more I think about the 48/55 I just can't get my head around how on earth the route will cope as one combined route. Every time I have seen either route the buses have been rammed full.
The same for the 25! As others have said there must be plenty of other routes that are more suitable for cuts!
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Post by snoggle on Jul 19, 2018 20:08:17 GMT
The more I think about the 48/55 I just can't get my head around how on earth the route will cope as one combined route. Every time I have seen either route the buses have been rammed full. The same for the 25! As others have said there must be plenty of other routes that are more suitable for cuts! But if you take the view that "flows" are what TfL are bothered about they will take the view that the 26 can mop up the Liv St - South Hackney traffic by which time the 55 has probably decanted a fair number of people who boarded in Clerkenwell / Old St area. They don't care about forcing people to change. They'll also take the view that London Bridge - Liv St is overbussed with the 35, 48, 133 and 149 so taking one out between aligns capacity with demand. Given the hideous roadworks in the City I suspect many people are now walking from London Bridge and not taking buses at peak times. Note also that LU's works to expand Bank station will affect road capacity until about 2022 so that's another issue that TfL will be considering. TfL will never achieve a 7% mileage cut unless they make some very big changes including the removal of large sections of route, removing high frequency bus routes and more radically reducing frequencies. They have set a very difficult target - we are talking about 10s of millions of kilometres being removed (37m from the business plan). You simply can't do that by just faffing around at the edges. To take out 37m kms you need to remove the equivalent of 12.88 route 25s or 19.31 route 29s or 27.89 route 123s or 133.25 route 138s (taking 37m kms and dividing by the operated annual route mileage for each route in 2016/17). Obviously that's not the strictly correct answer as operators never manage 100% mileage operation on busy routes over a year and TfL would save the contractual annual kilometrage which would be higher. Another analogy is that to save the 37m kms you would have to withdraw the 21 busiest routes in London or the 195 least busiest services. |
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jul 19, 2018 22:36:53 GMT
I don't think the 242 is overbussed, personally. I've use the route often, when visiting a mate up in Clapton Park. Anytime I use the route, it is often jam packed, especially between Liverpool Street and Homerton. I'm still yet to see a near empty 242, however, I will say that I only tend to use the route during peak hours/night hours. So I guess it may be different during other hours? I bus spotted near Dalston Junction in the last week of 30 under TT, so not so long ago. I must've had like 7 242s pass per one 30... All had no more than 5 people on... It's like D7, peak - fairs, but every 6min off peak with also about 5 people per bus, and yet immune from reduction? -_- |
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Post by redbus on Jul 19, 2018 23:00:25 GMT
o sorry I thought the 98 had returned to Red Lion Square. Err 98 does go Holborn for a while now Space is booked for the 3 I think, but so far no sign of it going there! Also watch TfL still remove buses from Oxford Street.... As ABBA sung - Money, Money, Money . We will not give up the 48 without a fight though. I heard Hackney council are not happy. I don't understand why near empty overbussed 242 gets away with it and instead useful 48 gets targetted -_- Fight? Good luck with that one ! Unless those fighting can make it a politically impossible cut for the Mayor, I fear it is going to happen.
As for capacity, who would have thought the northern section of bus 31 would cope with a 40% cut. It has and other than people such as myself there is little screaming, just full buses. I suspect it will be the same for the 48 /55 such is the world in which we live.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 20, 2018 0:20:05 GMT
Russell Square doesn't have the space for the 25 - it currently only has enough space for the 98 & 188 as well as the X68 which does sit on the stand sometimes between trips. If the 98 was extended beyond Holborn, you free up its stand for the 25 to use though extra stand space may probably be required. o sorry I thought the 98 had returned to Red Lion Square. Apologies, got mixed up there with when the 98 was terminating at Russell Square before. Even with just the 188 there and the X68 at times, the 25 still would need more space given how many buses it would still be using even after the restructuring  |
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Post by 15002 on Jul 20, 2018 1:16:10 GMT
o sorry I thought the 98 had returned to Red Lion Square. Apologies, got mixed up there with when the 98 was terminating at Russell Square before. Even with just the 188 there and the X68 at times, the 25 still would need more space given how many buses it would still be using even after the restructuring I remember reading that the 188 was going to get restructured by curtailing it as far as Waterloo or Elephant & Castle, forgot which one from a consultation I remember reading ages ago. Maybe that may help? |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 20, 2018 9:41:28 GMT
Apologies, got mixed up there with when the 98 was terminating at Russell Square before. Even with just the 188 there and the X68 at times, the 25 still would need more space given how many buses it would still be using even after the restructuring I remember reading that the 188 was going to get restructured by curtailing it as far as Waterloo or Elephant & Castle, forgot which one from a consultation I remember reading ages ago. Maybe that may help? It was mentioned in the South Bermondsey Network development plan that the 188 should be curtailed to Elephant, being replaced by two new routes. |
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Post by ronnie on Jul 20, 2018 12:10:27 GMT
I don't think the 242 is overbussed, personally. I've use the route often, when visiting a mate up in Clapton Park. Anytime I use the route, it is often jam packed, especially between Liverpool Street and Homerton. I'm still yet to see a near empty 242, however, I will say that I only tend to use the route during peak hours/night hours. So I guess it may be different during other hours? I bus spotted near Dalston Junction in the last week of 30 under TT, so not so long ago. I must've had like 7 242s pass per one 30... All had no more than 5 people on... It's like D7, peak - fairs, but every 6min off peak with also about 5 people per bus, and yet immune from reduction? -_- And at the western end post Liverpool Street, the 242 carries fresh air nowadays (even at peak times). The cut to St. Paul’s has made the route somewhat redundant now And off-topic, agree on the D7 off-peak. |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 20, 2018 12:26:39 GMT
I bus spotted near Dalston Junction in the last week of 30 under TT, so not so long ago. I must've had like 7 242s pass per one 30... All had no more than 5 people on... It's like D7, peak - fairs, but every 6min off peak with also about 5 people per bus, and yet immune from reduction? -_- And at the western end post Liverpool Street, the 242 carries fresh air nowadays (even at peak times). The cut to St. Paul’s has made the route somewhat redundant now And off-topic, agree on the D7 off-peak. That's why I suggested diverting the 242 to London Bridge in the event of a 48 withdrawal. An alternative, which I'd be much less keen on, would be to extend the 242 to TCR again and divert the 8 to LB, on the lines of the erstwhile 8A! It would re-introduce the LB to Bow link provided by the old 10 decades ago, but I'd hardly describe that as a priority! |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 20, 2018 15:26:37 GMT
I bus spotted near Dalston Junction in the last week of 30 under TT, so not so long ago. I must've had like 7 242s pass per one 30... All had no more than 5 people on... It's like D7, peak - fairs, but every 6min off peak with also about 5 people per bus, and yet immune from reduction? -_- And at the western end post Liverpool Street, the 242 carries fresh air nowadays (even at peak times). The cut to St. Paul’s has made the route somewhat redundant now And off-topic, agree on the D7 off-peak. The section beyond Liverpool Street up to Homerton Hospital is still important though and should be retained - the idea of diverting it to London Bridge sounds quite good. |
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Post by redbus on Jul 20, 2018 16:06:43 GMT
And at the western end post Liverpool Street, the 242 carries fresh air nowadays (even at peak times). The cut to St. Paul’s has made the route somewhat redundant now And off-topic, agree on the D7 off-peak. The section beyond Liverpool Street up to Homerton Hospital is still important though and should be retained - the idea of diverting it to London Bridge sounds quite good. It is a good idea, but given how many buses already go between Liverpool St and London Bridge I can't see it happening. Maybe route it via Hounsditch, Aldgate, Minories and then Route 15 to Monument, across London Bridge to Station. This would at least give an alternative routing with new links. The alternative is that I can see the 242 being further curtailed.
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Space is booked for the 3 I think, but so far no sign of it going there!
