The 11, 19 and 22 routes: a story of our time.

[busaholic]

The Kings Road in Chelsea became world famous in the mid 1960s and remained in prominence until the late 1970s, firstly with Swinging London and later with the burgeoning punk movement. There were quite a few films, some fictional and others feature films, and many clips that now appear on YouTube. Unlike the perennially tacky Carnaby Street in the West End, Kings Road undoubtedly had a certain style and, pertinently, if you tear your glance away from the minis (both cars and skirts) you'll probably see buses on routes 11, 19 and 22, and no others, Routemasters almost certainly on the 11 and RT family buses on the other two routes until they too were RMd in the 70s. These were the only bus routes on that stretch of road between Beaufort Street and Sloane Square for decades, and all three still run there today, with offshoots as described below. I've not attempted to chronicle every change of terminus, or list all the Sunday variations, as they're not germane to my argument.

The 11 ran between Shepherds Bush and Liverpool Street, with many short workings to Hammersmith (Brook Green) and Fulham (Salisbury) at the western end and Aldwych at the eastern end, also Victoria at the weekends. It got cut back to Brook Green, then Hammersmith Broadway, about 1970, although it was later re-extended for a couple of years in the late 1980s. In 1993 the 211 was created to take over the Hammersmith to Fulham Broadway part of the 11, then on to Westminster paralleling the 11, and over Westminster Bridge to Waterloo. In 2004, it was diverted to travel part of the way along the Fulham Road in order to serve a couple of hospitals, including the Brompton.

The 19 ran from Finsbury Park Station to Tooting Bec Station, usually extended to Streatham on a Sunday. About half the service short worked to Clapham Junction, and at the other end Highbury Barn (although in peak hours only 1 in 3 or 4 buses went through to Finsbury Park.) In 1987 the Clapham Junction to Tooting Bec section was replaced by a 219 between Sloane Square and Mitcham, though it was diverted away from the Kings Road in 1989. In 1993, concurrent with the introduction of the 319 from Sloane Square to Streatham the 19 was further cut back from Clapham Junction to the south end of Battersea Bridge.

The 22 went from Putney Common to Homerton, but was withdrawn between Bloomsbury (Bury Place) and Homerton in 1987, and further back to Piccadilly Circus a little later.

Frequencies along the Kings Road in the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s I'd describe as ultra high frequency (the 11), high frequency (the 19) and medium frequency (the 22) where high frequency meant 5 minutes or better during weekday daytime.

So, what's the point I'm trying to make with all my wittering? it's that, although today we have five bus routes along the Kings Road, including the three that have always been there, the range of destinations is basically the same as in 1934, and no new Underground lines have opened anywhere near there either. So when TfL make the claim that Kings Road is overbussed, and assuming that means at least one route is at risk, which is it to be? Sometimes in this situation you look to see if a route that terminates at or near one end can get cut back, and in this case that's the 19 (Battersea Bridge to Sloane Square or 219 (Sloane Square to, presumably, Chelsea World's End), though the latter has many disadvantages. So, the 19 comes under close scrutiny. Now, the logical thing on paper might be to send the 22 through to Finsbury Park in place of the 19, and withdraw the latter route (I'm ignoring the current aberration of the 22 to Oxford Circus via Mayfair, because it's plain it's for the chop anyway). But wouldn't the 22 be too long for today's traffic? Apparently so, because that's not what TfL propose: instead, the 22 terminates at Picc Circus once again, the 19 continues but only between the old 22 terminus at Bury Place and Finsbury Park, and there's no connection between the two which doesn't involve a change of bus onto the 38. I think this is totally unacceptable, and the very least that TfL can do to alter their plans is to swap the 22 and 19 proposed termini, unless an acceptable way can be found to transfer passengers between the two routes without involving the crossing of road junctions, so Piccadilly Circus as termini of both is out. Tottenham Court Road  would only be possible if both (A) space were available and (B) passengers could both board and leave the bus at that same terminal stop.

More broadly, although the Kings Road situation is possibly unique in not only having the same route patterns as eighty years ago but having no real other interlopers in that time, it's an exemplar of the dilemma TfL find themselves in. Whole routes of longstanding are under threat now or in the near future, or truncated so much their continued existence seems almost superfluous, and the complete chop awaits later. Things that are destroyed in one blow, and that includes bus routes, can't be recreated so easily later on, in perhaps better circumstances. Whole bus routes of great length should not be under threat unless they, and they alone, in that area have suffered huge drops in patronage, and then only after TfL has analysed all possible reasons for that and seen whether there is anything they can do to effect improvements. It might be, for instance, after the Elizabeth Line opens in full that bus passenger numbers fall away in spades on certain routes, particularly if TfL have manipulated those routes to have that possible effect. Better, at this stage, to reduce four routes from 8 to 6 bph to save costs rather than withdraw completely an 8 bph route.

So, that's my view. I'm not thick skinned but neither am I so 'touchy' that I can't take criticism, so feel free. If, on the other hand, should anyone care to give a 'thumbs up' then I won't feel patronised.

[snoggle]

There is a precedent for the 19 "non meeting in the centre" with route 22. When the latter was chopped to Picc Circus it no longer met the 22B when it was pulled back to TCR. LT did try to maintain a connection for 5 years with the 22B initially running to Trafalgar Sq, later Picc Circus. Of course now the 242 gets nowhere near TCR any more and will be even further away if it starts to impersonate the old 22A by reaching Aldgate but not extending into Wapping. I suspect TfL will try to pull the Kings Road down to just 2 routes - 22 and 319 in 2 years time. I can't see the 11/311 lasting alongside the 211 which now clearly has "favoured" status. I know removal of the 311 causes issues but I suspect TfL will tell people wanting Fulham Broadway to change to the 28/295 (assuming they remain runnng via Fulham).

I can also see the 19 being pulled back to somewhere like the Angel with the 38 left to take whatever strain is left between there and Piccadilly. In an extreme case the 19 could go altogether with the 4 slightly enhanced to cover the Angel to Finsbury Park section. This is based on what seems to be TfL's new move to only have 1 or 2 routes on many sections of route.

[ADH45258]

Aug 28, 2018 18:53:18 GMT snoggle said:

There is a precedent for the 19 "non meeting in the centre" with route 22. When the latter was chopped to Picc Circus it no longer met the 22B when it was pulled back to TCR. LT did try to maintain a connection for 5 years with the 22B initially running to Trafalgar Sq, later Picc Circus. Of course now the 242 gets nowhere near TCR any more and will be even further away if it starts to impersonate the old 22A by reaching Aldgate but not extending into Wapping. I suspect TfL will try to pull the Kings Road down to just 2 routes - 22 and 319 in 2 years time. I can't see the 11/311 lasting alongside the 211 which now clearly has "favoured" status. I know removal of the 311 causes issues but I suspect TfL will tell people wanting Fulham Broadway to change to the 28/295 (assuming they remain runnng via Fulham).

I can also see the 19 being pulled back to somewhere like the Angel with the 38 left to take whatever strain is left between there and Piccadilly. In an extreme case the 19 could go altogether with the 4 slightly enhanced to cover the Angel to Finsbury Park section. This is based on what seems to be TfL's new move to only have 1 or 2 routes on many sections of route.

Though if the 311 were to be withdrawn in the future, I could see the 211 diverted via the 11 between Sloane Square and Fulham Broadway instead. This would leave 3 main routes along Kings Road (22, 211, 319), with others such as the 49 along sections.

[misty]

If the 211 was to divert along the 11 route there would properly be problems considering the 211 would then no longer serve Chelsea & Westminster, Marsden and Brompton hospitals.

[danorak]

This reminds me of a book I had as a child called 'the Flying 19'. As far as I can remember, the story was that London congestion got so bad that an inventor came up with a flying 19 bus from Battersea garage! This was frowned upon by the London Transport powers that be and it was scrapped. But the day was saved by resurrecting it as an invisible flying bus...

Maybe I'll float it in the fantasy route change thread.

[sid]

Aug 28, 2018 19:45:09 GMT ADH45258 said:

Aug 28, 2018 18:53:18 GMT snoggle said:

There is a precedent for the 19 "non meeting in the centre" with route 22. When the latter was chopped to Picc Circus it no longer met the 22B when it was pulled back to TCR. LT did try to maintain a connection for 5 years with the 22B initially running to Trafalgar Sq, later Picc Circus. Of course now the 242 gets nowhere near TCR any more and will be even further away if it starts to impersonate the old 22A by reaching Aldgate but not extending into Wapping. I suspect TfL will try to pull the Kings Road down to just 2 routes - 22 and 319 in 2 years time. I can't see the 11/311 lasting alongside the 211 which now clearly has "favoured" status. I know removal of the 311 causes issues but I suspect TfL will tell people wanting Fulham Broadway to change to the 28/295 (assuming they remain runnng via Fulham).

I can also see the 19 being pulled back to somewhere like the Angel with the 38 left to take whatever strain is left between there and Piccadilly. In an extreme case the 19 could go altogether with the 4 slightly enhanced to cover the Angel to Finsbury Park section. This is based on what seems to be TfL's new move to only have 1 or 2 routes on many sections of route.

Though if the 311 were to be withdrawn in the future, I could see the 211 diverted via the 11 between Sloane Square and Fulham Broadway instead. This would leave 3 main routes along Kings Road (22, 211, 319), with others such as the 49 along sections.

Surely it would be simpler to withdraw the 211 and extend the 311 to Hammersmith? Something else can take over the Waterloo bit, the 52 would seem ideal?

[busaholic]

It's interesting to see how the 211 has become a more important route than the 11, the reasons for which I can understand, but it's all relative, of course, as both have had reduced headways on a drip, drip basis. I deliberately didn't get too involved with that aspect in my post (well, what I eventually posted, cos it went through about twelve drafts!) as I can get a bit emotional over the 11, a route I've known well for sixty odd years, without ever living on it. Something people closer to the area now can perhaps tell me - how will the 311 connect in practice with the 11 at Victoria, in both directions? It seems to me that there's a distinct possibility there'll be long distances between the two. Maybe the 11 could terminate at Victoria Coach Station, if a suitable turn exists.

[snoggle]

Aug 28, 2018 23:02:13 GMT busaholic said:

It's interesting to see how the 211 has become a more important route than the 11, the reasons for which I can understand, but it's all relative, of course, as both have had reduced headways on a drip, drip basis. I deliberately didn't get too involved with that aspect in my post (well, what I eventually posted, cos it went through about twelve drafts!) as I can get a bit emotional over the 11, a route I've known well for sixty odd years, without ever living on it. Something people closer to the area now can perhaps tell me - how will the 311 connect in practice with the 11 at Victoria, in both directions? It seems to me that there's a distinct possibility there'll be long distances between the two. Maybe the 11 could terminate at Victoria Coach Station, if a suitable turn exists.

Not sure anyone knows yet as the final state of Victoria Bus Station, Terminus Place and related stand spaces is unknown (publicly). I have a feeling you may well be right that the curtailed 11 and 311 will not connect in any meaningful fashion. I can see the 11 standing on Vauxhall Bridge Road while the 311 serves only Buckingham Palace Road and round the present one way system to/from Gloucester Place. I am assuming here that through running via Terminus Place is not going to happen, that there are no free stands in the bus station and that the 311 will take the shortest possible route through the Victoria area. I suspect the presumption is that people will change to the 211 and then change again on Victoria St if they really want the 11. The underlying message here (for me, anyway) is that the 11 will be killed entirely in under 3 years. It will be quite the indictment against TfL's management of the network when the 11 is killed off.

[vjaska]

Aug 28, 2018 23:02:13 GMT busaholic said:

It's interesting to see how the 211 has become a more important route than the 11, the reasons for which I can understand, but it's all relative, of course, as both have had reduced headways on a drip, drip basis. I deliberately didn't get too involved with that aspect in my post (well, what I eventually posted, cos it went through about twelve drafts!) as I can get a bit emotional over the 11, a route I've known well for sixty odd years, without ever living on it. Something people closer to the area now can perhaps tell me - how will the 311 connect in practice with the 11 at Victoria, in both directions? It seems to me that there's a distinct possibility there'll be long distances between the two. Maybe the 11 could terminate at Victoria Coach Station, if a suitable turn exists.

The point you make about not connecting is why I only agreed with the restructuring of the 11 to a point only - I'd of personally run the 311 between Fulham Broadway & Trafalgar Square (taking the 3's stand) which at least provides a decent amount of overlap between the 11 & 311. I'm still in favour of restructuring the 11 but not how the 311 has been proposed

[twobellstogo]

Aug 28, 2018 23:33:39 GMT snoggle said:

Aug 28, 2018 23:02:13 GMT busaholic said:

It's interesting to see how the 211 has become a more important route than the 11, the reasons for which I can understand, but it's all relative, of course, as both have had reduced headways on a drip, drip basis. I deliberately didn't get too involved with that aspect in my post (well, what I eventually posted, cos it went through about twelve drafts!) as I can get a bit emotional over the 11, a route I've known well for sixty odd years, without ever living on it. Something people closer to the area now can perhaps tell me - how will the 311 connect in practice with the 11 at Victoria, in both directions? It seems to me that there's a distinct possibility there'll be long distances between the two. Maybe the 11 could terminate at Victoria Coach Station, if a suitable turn exists.

Not sure anyone knows yet as the final state of Victoria Bus Station, Terminus Place and related stand spaces is unknown (publicly). I have a feeling you may well be right that the curtailed 11 and 311 will not connect in any meaningful fashion. I can see the 11 standing on Vauxhall Bridge Road while the 311 serves only Buckingham Palace Road and round the present one way system to/from Gloucester Place. I am assuming here that through running via Terminus Place is not going to happen, that there are no free stands in the bus station and that the 311 will take the shortest possible route through the Victoria area. I suspect the presumption is that people will change to the 211 and then change again on Victoria St if they really want the 11. The underlying message here (for me, anyway) is that the 11 will be killed entirely in under 3 years. It will be quite the indictment against TfL's management of the network when the 11 is killed off.

Mainly because almost everything else has been killed off at the eastern end of the 11, I think it will survive, but it’s a shame to see how such a well known route has been cut. Some routes in London (eg 9, 11, 15, 24, arguably 53) have almost a mythical quality.
As said by others above, my belief too is eventually the majority of lengthy route corridors in London will have two routes on them maximum - it’s what’s done for the 48 and I think will do for other services.

[ADH45258]

Aug 29, 2018 7:36:00 GMT twobellstogo said:

Aug 28, 2018 23:33:39 GMT snoggle said:

Not sure anyone knows yet as the final state of Victoria Bus Station, Terminus Place and related stand spaces is unknown (publicly). I have a feeling you may well be right that the curtailed 11 and 311 will not connect in any meaningful fashion. I can see the 11 standing on Vauxhall Bridge Road while the 311 serves only Buckingham Palace Road and round the present one way system to/from Gloucester Place. I am assuming here that through running via Terminus Place is not going to happen, that there are no free stands in the bus station and that the 311 will take the shortest possible route through the Victoria area. I suspect the presumption is that people will change to the 211 and then change again on Victoria St if they really want the 11. The underlying message here (for me, anyway) is that the 11 will be killed entirely in under 3 years. It will be quite the indictment against TfL's management of the network when the 11 is killed off.

Mainly because almost everything else has been killed off at the eastern end of the 11, I think it will survive, but it’s a shame to see how such a well known route has been cut. Some routes in London (eg 9, 11, 15, 24, arguably 53) have almost a mythical quality.
As said by others above, my belief too is eventually the majority of lengthy route corridors in London will have two routes on them maximum - it’s what’s done for the 48 and I think will do for other services.

With a shortened route 11, it could still be replaced. e.g. Extend the 9 or 87 from Aldwych to Liverpool Street, and extend the 91 from Trafalgar Square to Victoria.

Then maybe use the 11 number for the 311.

[rugbyref]

In the days of sending RMs abroad to drum up tourism, they tended to be blinded for route 11 to demonstrate all the tourist places of interest it served.

[twobellstogo]

Aug 29, 2018 7:37:57 GMT ADH45258 said:

Aug 29, 2018 7:36:00 GMT twobellstogo said:

Mainly because almost everything else has been killed off at the eastern end of the 11, I think it will survive, but it’s a shame to see how such a well known route has been cut. Some routes in London (eg 9, 11, 15, 24, arguably 53) have almost a mythical quality.
As said by others above, my belief too is eventually the majority of lengthy route corridors in London will have two routes on them maximum - it’s what’s done for the 48 and I think will do for other services.

With a shortened route 11, it could still be replaced. e.g. Extend the 9 or 87 from Aldwych to Liverpool Street, and extend the 91 from Trafalgar Square to Victoria.

Then maybe use the 11 number for the 311.

If Victoria-Liverpool Street is considered to be enough for the 11, then neither the 9 nor the 87 will go to Liverpool Street. In the case of the 91, I think that’s also borderline too long with an extension to Victoria but even if it wasn’t, I suspect it would be pitched as 11 extending to Crouch End rather than 91 to Victoria.

[southlondonbus]

I noticed on the TFL service changes the 412 is having a slight change to its routeing and it mentions this will go out to consultation later. With the 75 curtailing to West Croydon I wonder if a large consultation on the Croydon area to axe some services will be coming up?

[sid]

Aug 29, 2018 8:47:01 GMT southlondonbus said:

I noticed on the TFL service changes the 412 is having a slight change to its routeing and it mentions this will go out to consultation later. With the 75 curtailing to West Croydon I wonder if a large consultation on the Croydon area to axe some services will be coming up?

The 412 routing changes this Saturday so it's a bit late for any consultation, it's a very minor rerouting anyway.