Ropey 10 year old vehicles going through Richmond

[Deleted]

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

[george]

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

H37 is a fairly new route in comparison to most routes in London and has always been single Decker due to low bridge. The old 37 route went a different way? 65 is getting new buses soon but they are VHs 😣.

[busaholic]

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

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i think it was about 1978 that the 71 finally got Routemasters, so the ones you used to see were getting on for twenty years old, or even older in later years, but I see where you're coming from!

[vjaska]

Apr 20, 2019 23:32:56 GMT george said:

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

H37 is a fairly new route in comparison to most routes in London and has always been single Decker due to low bridge. The old 37 route went a different way? 65 is getting new buses soon but they are VHs 😣.

The old 37 indeed went a different route - upon approaching the low bridge at Isleworth, it would turn into Loring Road & then Linkfield Road to reach London Road. Parked cars eventually made this routing unviable which was one of the reasons why the H37 was introduced as a single decker route.

[vjaska]

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

It's the way the tendering system works - the 607's new contract stated new buses and it's new contract started earlier this month. The 65's contract has a bit more to go which is why it sees older buses - buses are not dolled on based on which routes go through posh areas or areas that are perceived as nice.

[snowman]

Apr 21, 2019 0:34:51 GMT vjaska said:

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

It's the way the tendering system works - the 607's new contract stated new buses and it's new contract started earlier this month. The 65's contract has a bit more to go which is why it sees older buses - buses are not dolled on based on which routes go through posh areas or areas that are perceived as nice.

Often these days, new buses are only alternate tenders, as the buses get a second term

Both the routes you mention have mixed fleets, the 65 is mainly 2009 SPs but has a top up of 2016 buses (and is expected to receive 10 new buses soon) although their tendered routes 406 & 681 are getting the 65s older buses instead. The H37 has 13 brand new buses, but as frequency reduction is planned still retains 3 buses from 2011 (often the ones from 203)

However you do have a point, until about 2-3 years ago, buses tended to be on their tendered routes, or at very least working from garage where route was allocated. (There were some reallocations due to new routemaster introductions but the displaced buses usually allowed oldest to leave).

It is a recent idea to swap fleets around, although not for comfort or quality but for engine emissions. It remains to be seen when everything is euroIV will some swap back, although hybrids are preferred on some routes. Your example 65 was awarded with diesel (not hybrid) buses in 2016. The H37 only got newer buses as old non standard ones were difficult to upgrade.

[snoggle]

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

Not sure how this "nice clean area" thing aligns to any justification for new buses. The only thing that is pushing the delivery of new buses these days is emissions regulations / Mayoral policy on air quality - that seems to be why RATP are ordering enormous numbers of new diesel euro6 single deckers at the moment. In rare instances a change of operator means new buses being delivered but that's it. TfL have been accepting "existing vehicle" bids on more and more contracts for the last 3-4 years. My local route (123) hasn't had a new bus delivered for it since 2005 and it won't see any until 2024 at the earliest and most likely 2026 if Arriva get a contract extension. Even then I'd not be shocked that whoever wins the next term still uses cascaded existing buses from their fleet. I can see that scenario playing out across London for a long while.

[rif153]

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling 

The old 05reg VWs on the 607 were knackered and in dire need of replacement. I have used the 65 for many years and I’ll admit the some of the SPs haven’t aged well and sound dreadfully knackered but some don’t so sound bad and haven’t fared as badly. The 65 will soon have a full EuroVI allocation because upgrading SPs to EuroVI doesn’t seem feasible. On your point of Richmond being a posh area and deserving newer buses, I’m sure most people don’t care how old their bus is as long as it gets them from A to B in some sort of civilised fashion. Whilst I agree it would be nice to have some newer buses on the 65, the SPs still have a bit left in them before they become too old, no point wasting buses which may not be the best but still work. In the long term the SPs will be inadequate, obviously they are known for wasteful fuel consumption and eating blinds hence why they’ll hopefully be more by 2020 

[vjaska]

Apr 21, 2019 13:13:26 GMT rif153 said:

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling 

The old 05reg VWs on the 607 were knackered and in dire need of replacement. I have used the 65 for many years and I’ll admit the some of the SPs haven’t aged well and sound dreadfully knackered but some don’t so sound bad and haven’t fared as badly. The 65 will soon have a full EuroVI allocation because upgrading SPs to EuroVI doesn’t seem feasible. On your point of Richmond being a posh area and deserving newer buses, I’m sure most people don’t care how old their bus is as long as it gets them from A to B in some sort of civilised fashion. Whilst I agree it would be nice to have some newer buses on the 65, the SPs still have a bit left in them before they become too old, no point wasting buses which may not be the best but still work. In the long term the SPs will be inadequate, obviously they are known for wasteful fuel consumption and eating blinds hence why they’ll hopefully be more by 2020 

Two points:

The VW’s were 55 reg and certainly not all were knackered - I rode one on the penultimate week and it was certainly well looked after as it was easily hitting speed without much effort - a 607 journey up there with the ones I had on the lovely W reg TNL’s back in the day

The 65 is receiving 10 VH’s - nothing else has been confirmed so best to wait and see what happens.

[RandomBusesGirl]

Old does not need to mean bad… In fact, many older buses beat the underpowered, restricted plastic junk of today. Would you call Routemasters "ropey", I don't think so Or Olympians?? When buses are well looked after, age is only a small factor.

Scanias are powerful buses, the main fault of the London spec ones would be the very flat uncomfortable seats I'd say.
FW also seem to maintain them well. There are much more rundown buses that are younger than 65's entire fleet - 250's grotty E400s come to mind!
Scanias' Gemini 3 replacement is what I'd personally consider a downgrade and it's new buses we're talking about…

Also area plays little relevance. Until recently, the local Abellio Twickenham [TF] garage still had early 2000's Darts and Caetanos turn up on the 490/R70/R68, and I'm amazed these were not brought up, instead of the SPs!


My main concern with the Richmond area would be the level of traffic congestion, rather than age of the buses, which as of now is pretty average.

[Deleted]

I think 65 bus route and the 71 which went over Richmond Hill were my favourite routes and when conversation to one man operation back in the day happened these routes had more impact than say 2017 losing its crew operation vehicles.

A company called Armchair took over 65 Orange and white buses and proper boneshakers so them 2009 London United vehicles are an upgrade on them I suppose.
I'm a fan of the LTs so I would welcome them on the route but recently nice vehicle tested on 12 with USB charge points. A batch of them would not go amiss. 65 going past me did sound 10year old yesterday too.
Although I'm not a fan of many vehicles used today I like the fact many routes do have newer vehicles these days overall.

[george]

Apr 21, 2019 14:17:19 GMT @neilm8 said:

I think 65 bus route and the 71 which went over Richmond Hill were my favourite routes and when conversation to one man operation back in the day happened these routes had more impact than say 2017 losing its crew operation vehicles.

A company called Armchair took over 65 Orange and white buses and proper boneshakers so them 2009 London United vehicles are an upgrade on them I suppose.
I'm a fan of the LTs so I would welcome them on the route but recently nice vehicle tested on 12 with USB charge points. A batch of them would not go amiss. 65 going past me did sound 10year old yesterday too.
Although I'm not a fan of many vehicles used today I like the fact many routes do have newer vehicles these days overall.

Can't see LTs passing the route very tight turn in petersham.

[Frenzie]

Apr 21, 2019 14:19:20 GMT george said:

Apr 21, 2019 14:17:19 GMT @neilm8 said:

I think 65 bus route and the 71 which went over Richmond Hill were my favourite routes and when conversation to one man operation back in the day happened these routes had more impact than say 2017 losing its crew operation vehicles.

A company called Armchair took over 65 Orange and white buses and proper boneshakers so them 2009 London United vehicles are an upgrade on them I suppose.
I'm a fan of the LTs so I would welcome them on the route but recently nice vehicle tested on 12 with USB charge points. A batch of them would not go amiss. 65 going past me did sound 10year old yesterday too.
Although I'm not a fan of many vehicles used today I like the fact many routes do have newer vehicles these days overall.

Can't see LTs passing the route very tight turn in petersham.

I’m sure they’d turn just as well as the SPs.

[southlondonbus]

The 65 is the 94 is still cut to Marble Arch could use the VHs from it to remove mroe SPs if they aren't going to be upgraded to Euro 6.

[sid]

Apr 20, 2019 23:27:20 GMT @neilm8 said:

Seeing the 65 bus travel through Richmond was only let down yesterday as took nostalgic visit to childhood memories.  Also 371 instead of a nice route master 71 was a comedown too.  I used a H37 as my sister part drove to Richmond and at least this was a 2019 single decker which I'm sure was once a route master route too.
 I'm not being over nostalgic but Richmond kept nice and clean and more upper class area so how 607 limited stop gets shiny new buses and 65 which is still a busy route has 2009 vehicles is baffling but this is just a view point which you may find not of any substance. 

I can understand your point, in a different environment the 65 would probably have nice new shiny high spec Gold/Sapphire standard buses but that's not how things work in TfL land, the Scania's are ok but they're getting a bit long in the tooth.