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Post by Paul on Dec 23, 2023 19:31:20 GMT
Was about to post. This is nuts and again adds to the reason why sadiq khan needs to be thrown out asap So in E/SE London you always pay a toll …. And what's Susan Hall gonna do about it? Forget the tunnels exist then do a broadcast saying the Tooting Popular Front has stolen them off TfL? Is there any need to wonder what Susan Hall will do about it? It’s unlikely it’s going to be her concern. Let’s focus on what Khan will do shall we? If (when?) the Rotherhithe Tunnel closes for refurbishment then in my opinion it’s very short odds that it will reopen as a tolled tunnel. As ronnie says; in Khan’s E/SE London you always pay a toll |
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Post by TB123 on Dec 23, 2023 20:01:52 GMT
And what's Susan Hall gonna do about it? Forget the tunnels exist then do a broadcast saying the Tooting Popular Front has stolen them off TfL? Is there any need to wonder what Susan Hall will do about it? It’s unlikely it’s going to be her concern. Let’s focus on what Khan will do shall we? If (when?) the Rotherhithe Tunnel closes for refurbishment then in my opinion it’s very short odds that it will reopen as a tolled tunnel. As ronnie says; in Khan’s E/SE London you always pay a toll The comment relating to Susan Hall was in relation to Sadiq Khan needing to be 'thrown out' - she is the likeliest replacement in 2024. Under both Livingstone and Johnson new crossings in E/SE London have been proposed as tolled roads. This isn't a Khan thing. |
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Post by WH241 on Dec 23, 2023 20:16:24 GMT
It was me.
This is going to be hilarious, they claim the charge on both tunnels is to not create an either or situation but the Rotherhithe will still be free. Can't help but wonder what the chances are of them suddenly finding a problem with the Rotherhithe tunnel that means it needs to "close" for essential repairs once the toll is up and running. |
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Post by ronnie on Dec 24, 2023 12:58:51 GMT
Is there any need to wonder what Susan Hall will do about it? It’s unlikely it’s going to be her concern. Let’s focus on what Khan will do shall we? If (when?) the Rotherhithe Tunnel closes for refurbishment then in my opinion it’s very short odds that it will reopen as a tolled tunnel. As ronnie says; in Khan’s E/SE London you always pay a toll The comment relating to Susan Hall was in relation to Sadiq Khan needing to be 'thrown out' - she is the likeliest replacement in 2024. Under both Livingstone and Johnson new crossings in E/SE London have been proposed as tolled roads. This isn't a Khan thing. They were all “proposed”. Additional east London crossings have been proposed since donkey’s years. Shall we blame all London mayors since the 1970s? But it’s only in khan’s watch that these schemes got approved, are being built and (given how things are) will be commissioned. So all responsibility lies firmly at his doorstep, no ifs and buts about it |
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Post by Paul on Dec 24, 2023 16:03:09 GMT
Is there any need to wonder what Susan Hall will do about it? It’s unlikely it’s going to be her concern. Let’s focus on what Khan will do shall we? If (when?) the Rotherhithe Tunnel closes for refurbishment then in my opinion it’s very short odds that it will reopen as a tolled tunnel. As ronnie says; in Khan’s E/SE London you always pay a toll The comment relating to Susan Hall was in relation to Sadiq Khan needing to be 'thrown out' - she is the likeliest replacement in 2024. Under both Livingstone and Johnson new crossings in E/SE London have been proposed as tolled roads. This isn't a Khan thing. There’s still no need to wonder what Hall will do - the only way there’s going to be a Conservative Mayor is if they find someone as charismatic as Boris Johnson. So Khan has to continue policies proposed by previous Mayors? It’s within Khan’s power to ensure crossings aren’t tolled and yet he is quite happy to ensure crossings in the east are tolled while western crossings are not |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Dec 24, 2023 18:27:41 GMT
Is there any need to wonder what Susan Hall will do about it? It’s unlikely it’s going to be her concern. Let’s focus on what Khan will do shall we? If (when?) the Rotherhithe Tunnel closes for refurbishment then in my opinion it’s very short odds that it will reopen as a tolled tunnel. As ronnie says; in Khan’s E/SE London you always pay a toll The comment relating to Susan Hall was in relation to Sadiq Khan needing to be 'thrown out' - she is the likeliest replacement in 2024. Under both Livingstone and Johnson new crossings in E/SE London have been proposed as tolled roads. This isn't a Khan thing. I'm not supporting Hall in any way, actually am quite a strong Labour supporter when Corbyn's end are kept away from the party but the issue being made by Khan is the fact that all other crossings will also have tolls introduced. If the repairs for the Rotherhithe were so important why not just do that now? Why wait until all the alternative crossings start being tolled too? If you were to toll all bridges in West London wouldn't there be an uproar? Why should it cost a tenner to do a round trip in East London but not in West London? The price is actually so absurd that it might even be cheaper to get to South London using Chiswick Bridge if you have a relatively fuel efficient car. I dread to think how the traffic situation will be heading towards Tower Bridge as that'll be the only crossing if the Rotherhithe were to close unless you include the Woolwich Ferry. That will take traffic all through Bermondsey and potentially Aldgate and the Shadwell area. Buses are not an alternative in this situation, how many of the car drivers are coming from the depths of Beckton exactly? Anyone who wants to get to Canary Wharf is probably also using the Jubilee Line so the SL4 isn't going to prevent car usage either as it's not catering to car users. Where are the actual links to where the traffic stems from such as places down the A13 like Barking, East Ham and Dagenham? and also from the A12 such as places like Redbridge and Leytonstone? What about the parts of South London such as Eltham and Bexleyheath? It's completely absurd that such a raw deal is being provided to people in East London specifically. I think Khan will still get into power simply because the Conservatives are worse in potentially every aspect at the moment. But we need to prepare for traffic chaos and even more people deflecting to the car as a result of buses getting caught in the ridiculous amounts of traffic that will inevitably develop in the West Silvertown and Greenwich areas as people start navigating down other roads in search of a free crossing. |
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Post by TB123 on Dec 24, 2023 20:30:48 GMT
The comment relating to Susan Hall was in relation to Sadiq Khan needing to be 'thrown out' - she is the likeliest replacement in 2024. Under both Livingstone and Johnson new crossings in E/SE London have been proposed as tolled roads. This isn't a Khan thing. They were all “proposed”. Additional east London crossings have been proposed since donkey’s years. Shall we blame all London mayors since the 1970s? But it’s only in khan’s watch that these schemes got approved, are being built and (given how things are) will be commissioned. So all responsibility lies firmly at his doorstep, no ifs and buts about it We've only had a Mayor since 2000. infrastructure.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/projects/london/silvertown-tunnel/: the formal development consent order for the tunnel, including tolls, was submitted to the Planning Inspectorate on 3rd May 2016. Sadiq Khan became Mayor six days later. After the DCO is submitted the ball is completely out of the Mayor's court and in the hands of Planning Inspector, so this is what really counts. londonist.com/2014/10/silvertown-tunnel-toll-consultation-to-be-launched : the consultation on tolling the tunnels first came about in October 2014, when Boris Johnson was Mayor. Make no mistake, this is a Johnson project. The Planning Inspector inquiry costs millions and the same people criticising Sadiq now for the tunnel would have been equally as critical had he abandoned the project after the millions spent on the bureaucracy of an inquiry. |
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Post by TB123 on Dec 24, 2023 21:48:01 GMT
The comment relating to Susan Hall was in relation to Sadiq Khan needing to be 'thrown out' - she is the likeliest replacement in 2024. Under both Livingstone and Johnson new crossings in E/SE London have been proposed as tolled roads. This isn't a Khan thing. I'm not supporting Hall in any way, actually am quite a strong Labour supporter when Corbyn's end are kept away from the party but the issue being made by Khan is the fact that all other crossings will also have tolls introduced. If the repairs for the Rotherhithe were so important why not just do that now? Why wait until all the alternative crossings start being tolled too? If you were to toll all bridges in West London wouldn't there be an uproar? Why should it cost a tenner to do a round trip in East London but not in West London? The price is actually so absurd that it might even be cheaper to get to South London using Chiswick Bridge if you have a relatively fuel efficient car. I dread to think how the traffic situation will be heading towards Tower Bridge as that'll be the only crossing if the Rotherhithe were to close unless you include the Woolwich Ferry. That will take traffic all through Bermondsey and potentially Aldgate and the Shadwell area. Buses are not an alternative in this situation, how many of the car drivers are coming from the depths of Beckton exactly? Anyone who wants to get to Canary Wharf is probably also using the Jubilee Line so the SL4 isn't going to prevent car usage either as it's not catering to car users. Where are the actual links to where the traffic stems from such as places down the A13 like Barking, East Ham and Dagenham? and also from the A12 such as places like Redbridge and Leytonstone? What about the parts of South London such as Eltham and Bexleyheath? It's completely absurd that such a raw deal is being provided to people in East London specifically. I think Khan will still get into power simply because the Conservatives are worse in potentially every aspect at the moment. But we need to prepare for traffic chaos and even more people deflecting to the car as a result of buses getting caught in the ridiculous amounts of traffic that will inevitably develop in the West Silvertown and Greenwich areas as people start navigating down other roads in search of a free crossing. I daren't say starting Rotherhithe works in 2025 is due to the extra capacity from Silvertown becoming available, but I do understand the cynicism that could arise from this given it's tolled. I support the Silvertown Tunnel, there are some journeys that are always going to need a car and these journeys should be made safer and smoother - but it's a tricky scenario as no politician can realistically pledge to spend public money on new road schemes, especially in an urban area, given their general unpopularity regardless of the opinions on tolls. I would add that many central London bridges were also historically privately owned and tolled, through City Bridge foundation, which continues to own and maintain London, Blackfriars, Tower, Southwark, Millennium bridges, but does not charge tolls as it derives income from rental property nearby to the bridges and Square Mile instead. I can understand the frustrations at the differences between East and West London re having tolled crossings, though. I think the fact new crossings downstream in the last century have largely had to be funded through private finances for varying public policies and of course this has led to tolls, which again have been retained beyond payment periods (like Dartford) for varying reasons |
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Post by TB123 on Dec 24, 2023 21:49:14 GMT
The comment relating to Susan Hall was in relation to Sadiq Khan needing to be 'thrown out' - she is the likeliest replacement in 2024. Under both Livingstone and Johnson new crossings in E/SE London have been proposed as tolled roads. This isn't a Khan thing. There’s still no need to wonder what Hall will do - the only way there’s going to be a Conservative Mayor is if they find someone as charismatic as Boris Johnson. So Khan has to continue policies proposed by previous Mayors? It’s within Khan’s power to ensure crossings aren’t tolled and yet he is quite happy to ensure crossings in the east are tolled while western crossings are not She is an election candidate so it is right she is held to account. The Silvertown Tunnel development consent order, including tolls for both crossings, was submitted under Boris Johnson, not Sadiq Khan, and it is almost impossible to cancel it once it has gotten to that stage, contracts signed etc |
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Post by Paul on Dec 24, 2023 22:03:07 GMT
There’s still no need to wonder what Hall will do - the only way there’s going to be a Conservative Mayor is if they find someone as charismatic as Boris Johnson. So Khan has to continue policies proposed by previous Mayors? It’s within Khan’s power to ensure crossings aren’t tolled and yet he is quite happy to ensure crossings in the east are tolled while western crossings are not She is an election candidate so it is right she is held to account. The Silvertown Tunnel development consent order, including tolls for both crossings, was submitted under Boris Johnson, not Sadiq Khan, and it is almost impossible to cancel it once it has gotten to that stage, contracts signed etc ‘Just blame Boris’ - seems to be a popular rhetoric lately…. And so, presumably, if the Rotherhithe Tunnel ends up tolled then that’s Boris’ fault too? |
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Post by TB123 on Dec 24, 2023 22:04:40 GMT
She is an election candidate so it is right she is held to account. The Silvertown Tunnel development consent order, including tolls for both crossings, was submitted under Boris Johnson, not Sadiq Khan, and it is almost impossible to cancel it once it has gotten to that stage, contracts signed etc ‘Just blame Boris’ - seems to be a popular rhetoric lately…. And so, presumably, if the Rotherhithe Tunnel ends up tolled then that’s Boris’ fault too? If Rotherhithe Tunnel is tolled it will be down to the incumbent Mayor. However there is no plans announced at this stage, it seems to be people adding 2+2 and praying for 4....I'd personally be surprised if it was tolled. Different scenario to the Blackwall/Silvertown |
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Post by Paul on Dec 24, 2023 22:27:04 GMT
‘Just blame Boris’ - seems to be a popular rhetoric lately…. And so, presumably, if the Rotherhithe Tunnel ends up tolled then that’s Boris’ fault too? If Rotherhithe Tunnel is tolled it will be down to the incumbent Mayor. However there is no plans announced at this stage, it seems to be people adding 2+2 and praying for 4....I'd personally be surprised if it was tolled. Different scenario to the Blackwall/Silvertown It’s not ‘praying for 4’ - it’s simple realism. If Khan thinks he can get away with it then he’ll toll the Rotherhithe Tunnel. If he thought he could get away with it then he’d find a way to make the Woolwich Ferry chargeable. I don’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth so if he says there are no plans to toll Rotherhithe Tunnel you can assume the press releases are ready to send out |
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Post by WH241 on Dec 24, 2023 22:35:39 GMT
If Rotherhithe Tunnel is tolled it will be down to the incumbent Mayor. However there is no plans announced at this stage, it seems to be people adding 2+2 and praying for 4....I'd personally be surprised if it was tolled. Different scenario to the Blackwall/Silvertown It’s not ‘praying for 4’ - it’s simple realism. If Khan thinks he can get away with it then he’ll toll the Rotherhithe Tunnel. If he thought he could get away with it then he’d find a way to make the Woolwich Ferry chargeable. I don’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth so if he says there are no plans to toll Rotherhithe Tunnel you can assume the press releases are ready to send out No point tolling the ferry it’s closed more than it’s open 😜 I think we are heading towards the Rotherhithe Tunnel being uneconomical to upgrade so will close or the only way is to repair and toll to recover cost. |
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Post by Paul on Dec 24, 2023 23:52:03 GMT
It’s not ‘praying for 4’ - it’s simple realism. If Khan thinks he can get away with it then he’ll toll the Rotherhithe Tunnel. If he thought he could get away with it then he’d find a way to make the Woolwich Ferry chargeable. I don’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth so if he says there are no plans to toll Rotherhithe Tunnel you can assume the press releases are ready to send out No point tolling the ferry it’s closed more than it’s open 😜 I think we are heading towards the Rotherhithe Tunnel being uneconomical to upgrade so will close or the only way is to repair and toll to recover cost You’re probably right about the viability of upgrading the Rotherhithe Tunnel which is why I fully expect it to reopen and be tolled. I haven’t kept up much with the Hammersmith Bridge fiasco but does anyone know if there has been any suggestions that that West London crossing should be tolled when and if it reopens to motor vehicles? |
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Post by ronnie on Dec 25, 2023 1:35:56 GMT
No point tolling the ferry it’s closed more than it’s open 😜 I think we are heading towards the Rotherhithe Tunnel being uneconomical to upgrade so will close or the only way is to repair and toll to recover cost You’re probably right about the viability of upgrading the Rotherhithe Tunnel which is why I fully expect it to reopen and be tolled. I haven’t kept up much with the Hammersmith Bridge fiasco but does anyone know if there has been any suggestions that that West London crossing should be tolled when and if it reopens to motor vehicles? The council (and the DfT funding plan) accounts for tolling. The cost will be split 1/3 each between tfl, dft and the council. Of course neither tfl nor the council have the money and the mayor has stated that he is against rolling (surprise surprise) which in my view renders the entire business plan uneconomical. Hence the tardy speed at which it is progressing |
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