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Post by rif153 on Apr 7, 2020 12:50:17 GMT
I've seen that there is a campaign to have an Overground branch to Battersea Park to support the redevelopment of the area. This is an interesting prospect (I wonder if its due to Geoff Marshall spilling the beans that they found out about it and got the idea!) Considering it though I was wondering if there is sufficient track capacity on the ELL to take more trains as its already under pressure with so many trains and such chronic overcrowding in normal circumstances, I suppose a signalling upgrade could facilitate more trains but it would make things more complex to add another branch to the East London Line which of course already has four branches but its not impossible it could take another.
This led me to say something I should have advocated long ago, restoration of the Southern services from London Bridge to Victoria via Peckham Rye. This would allow connections to Battersea allowing people to reach the area more easily. Not only would it bring in the connection to London Bridge but also allow greater cross South London connectivity allowing people to change at Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye to reach South East London/Kent with the range of destinations available to people from those stations via Southeastern and Thameslink. Many residents were displeased with the loss of their direct trains to Central London rail termini when the Overground in, only passengers at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye still have trains to both London Bridge and Victoria. I'd run the service with 2tph.
However, I know this isn't without its flaws so I wonder if some more knowledgeable enthusiasts could clarify a few things. First of all is their sufficient terminating capacity at London Bridge for an extra 2tph since the rebuilding? Second of all is their sufficient track capacity on the slow lines out of Victoria for an extra 2tph? Lastly, would their be issues with accommodating extra trains on the South London Line if Southern and Overground both operated on it with a combined 6tph?
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Post by route53 on Apr 7, 2020 17:13:49 GMT
I've seen that there is a campaign to have an Overground branch to Battersea Park to support the redevelopment of the area. This is an interesting prospect (I wonder if its due to Geoff Marshall spilling the beans that they found out about it and got the idea!) Considering it though I was wondering if there is sufficient track capacity on the ELL to take more trains as its already under pressure with so many trains and such chronic overcrowding in normal circumstances, I suppose a signalling upgrade could facilitate more trains but it would make things more complex to add another branch to the East London Line which of course already has four branches but its not impossible it could take another. This led me to say something I should have advocated long ago, restoration of the Southern services from London Bridge to Victoria via Peckham Rye. This would allow connections to Battersea allowing people to reach the area more easily. Not only would it bring in the connection to London Bridge but also allow greater cross South London connectivity allowing people to change at Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye to reach South East London/Kent with the range of destinations available to people from those stations via Southeastern and Thameslink. Many residents were displeased with the loss of their direct trains to Central London rail termini when the Overground in, only passengers at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye still have trains to both London Bridge and Victoria. I'd run the service with 2tph. However, I know this isn't without its flaws so I wonder if some more knowledgeable enthusiasts could clarify a few things. First of all is their sufficient terminating capacity at London Bridge for an extra 2tph since the rebuilding? Second of all is their sufficient track capacity on the slow lines out of Victoria for an extra 2tph? Lastly, would their be issues with accommodating extra trains on the South London Line if Southern and Overground both operated on it with a combined 6tph? The old SLL was such a nifty service, a quick and easy way to get across inner South London, plus it gave Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye 4tph to Victoria, 2 South London line stoppers and the semi fast Dartford service. While the ELL service offers a great way to get to Clapham Junction without going into Zone 1 I can see why locals were miffed at losing London Bridge and Victoria as terminals, Clapham Junction and Dalston are hardly replacements, and it was a bit of a backward step, however with London Bridge being literally rebuilt and with it having fewer terminal platforms (it previously had 9 terminal platforms now it only has 6) I’m not sure if the South London line could return to London Bridge. Victoria might be a different story, there was a proposal to keep the SLL at the Victoria end and then reroute eastwards toward Nunhead where it would either run toward Bromley South or run to either one of the Dartford Routes (Woolwich or Sidcup) I think this is feasible, though I don’t know why they didn’t make the Bexleyheath line trains stop at Clapham and Wandsworth Rd? It’s a pretty circuitous journey and adding into two extra stops would add much time, especially as it’s quicker to get to Charing Cross from Lewisham than it is to get to Victoria.
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Post by rif153 on Apr 7, 2020 17:25:39 GMT
I've seen that there is a campaign to have an Overground branch to Battersea Park to support the redevelopment of the area. This is an interesting prospect (I wonder if its due to Geoff Marshall spilling the beans that they found out about it and got the idea!) Considering it though I was wondering if there is sufficient track capacity on the ELL to take more trains as its already under pressure with so many trains and such chronic overcrowding in normal circumstances, I suppose a signalling upgrade could facilitate more trains but it would make things more complex to add another branch to the East London Line which of course already has four branches but its not impossible it could take another. This led me to say something I should have advocated long ago, restoration of the Southern services from London Bridge to Victoria via Peckham Rye. This would allow connections to Battersea allowing people to reach the area more easily. Not only would it bring in the connection to London Bridge but also allow greater cross South London connectivity allowing people to change at Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye to reach South East London/Kent with the range of destinations available to people from those stations via Southeastern and Thameslink. Many residents were displeased with the loss of their direct trains to Central London rail termini when the Overground in, only passengers at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye still have trains to both London Bridge and Victoria. I'd run the service with 2tph. However, I know this isn't without its flaws so I wonder if some more knowledgeable enthusiasts could clarify a few things. First of all is their sufficient terminating capacity at London Bridge for an extra 2tph since the rebuilding? Second of all is their sufficient track capacity on the slow lines out of Victoria for an extra 2tph? Lastly, would their be issues with accommodating extra trains on the South London Line if Southern and Overground both operated on it with a combined 6tph? The old SLL was such a nifty service, a quick and easy way to get across inner South London, plus it gave Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye 4tph to Victoria, 2 South London line stoppers and the semi fast Dartford service. While the ELL service offers a great way to get to Clapham Junction without going into Zone 1 I can see why locals were miffed at losing London Bridge and Victoria as terminals, Clapham Junction and Dalston are hardly replacements, and it was a bit of a backward step, however with London Bridge being literally rebuilt and with it having fewer terminal platforms (it previously had 9 terminal platforms now it only has 6) I’m not sure if the South London line could return to London Bridge. Victoria might be a different story, there was a proposal to keep the SLL at the Victoria end and then reroute eastwards toward Nunhead where it would either run toward Bromley South or run to either one of the Dartford Routes (Woolwich or Sidcup) I think this is feasible, though I don’t know why they didn’t make the Bexleyheath line trains stop at Clapham and Wandsworth Rd? It’s a pretty circuitous journey and adding into two extra stops would add much time, especially as it’s quicker to get to Charing Cross from Lewisham than it is to get to I entirely agree with most of what you said. I do think that the best compromise to try to partially restore the inner SLL would be adding regular stops on Southeastern at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street, a major problem with this is that Southeastern trains would either have to cross over the mainline to get into the right side of Victoria or via Battersea Park and enter the other side of Victoria instead. I suppose that the latter is hardly the end of the world and brings in some good new radial connections. Talking of locals being miffed at loss of services, didn't passengers between West Croydon and New Cross Gate carry a coffin on their final Charing Cross train in anger at the loss of these services which were replaced by the Overground?
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Post by greenboy on Apr 7, 2020 20:44:55 GMT
The old SLL was such a nifty service, a quick and easy way to get across inner South London, plus it gave Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye 4tph to Victoria, 2 South London line stoppers and the semi fast Dartford service. While the ELL service offers a great way to get to Clapham Junction without going into Zone 1 I can see why locals were miffed at losing London Bridge and Victoria as terminals, Clapham Junction and Dalston are hardly replacements, and it was a bit of a backward step, however with London Bridge being literally rebuilt and with it having fewer terminal platforms (it previously had 9 terminal platforms now it only has 6) I’m not sure if the South London line could return to London Bridge. Victoria might be a different story, there was a proposal to keep the SLL at the Victoria end and then reroute eastwards toward Nunhead where it would either run toward Bromley South or run to either one of the Dartford Routes (Woolwich or Sidcup) I think this is feasible, though I don’t know why they didn’t make the Bexleyheath line trains stop at Clapham and Wandsworth Rd? It’s a pretty circuitous journey and adding into two extra stops would add much time, especially as it’s quicker to get to Charing Cross from Lewisham than it is to get to I entirely agree with most of what you said. I do think that the best compromise to try to partially restore the inner SLL would be adding regular stops on Southeastern at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street, a major problem with this is that Southeastern trains would either have to cross over the mainline to get into the right side of Victoria or via Battersea Park and enter the other side of Victoria instead. I suppose that the latter is hardly the end of the world and brings in some good new radial connections. Talking of locals being miffed at loss of services, didn't passengers between West Croydon and New Cross Gate carry a coffin on their final Charing Cross train in anger at the loss of these services which were replaced by the Overground? I think it all comes down to making the best use of the track capacity. From what I can remember there were only two trains an hour from the New Cross Gate direction that went through to Charing Cross and none at all at peak times due to capacity limitations and removing them allowed more frequent Southeastern services.
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Post by route53 on Apr 8, 2020 15:30:05 GMT
The old SLL was such a nifty service, a quick and easy way to get across inner South London, plus it gave Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye 4tph to Victoria, 2 South London line stoppers and the semi fast Dartford service. While the ELL service offers a great way to get to Clapham Junction without going into Zone 1 I can see why locals were miffed at losing London Bridge and Victoria as terminals, Clapham Junction and Dalston are hardly replacements, and it was a bit of a backward step, however with London Bridge being literally rebuilt and with it having fewer terminal platforms (it previously had 9 terminal platforms now it only has 6) I’m not sure if the South London line could return to London Bridge. Victoria might be a different story, there was a proposal to keep the SLL at the Victoria end and then reroute eastwards toward Nunhead where it would either run toward Bromley South or run to either one of the Dartford Routes (Woolwich or Sidcup) I think this is feasible, though I don’t know why they didn’t make the Bexleyheath line trains stop at Clapham and Wandsworth Rd? It’s a pretty circuitous journey and adding into two extra stops would add much time, especially as it’s quicker to get to Charing Cross from Lewisham than it is to get to I entirely agree with most of what you said. I do think that the best compromise to try to partially restore the inner SLL would be adding regular stops on Southeastern at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street, a major problem with this is that Southeastern trains would either have to cross over the mainline to get into the right side of Victoria or via Battersea Park and enter the other side of Victoria instead. I suppose that the latter is hardly the end of the world and brings in some good new radial connections. Talking of locals being miffed at loss of services, didn't passengers between West Croydon and New Cross Gate carry a coffin on their final Charing Cross train in anger at the loss of these services which were replaced by the Overground? The Charing Cross services were the original fasts from Tattenham Corner and never stopped at the intermediate stations to New Cross Gate except on peaks and Sundays (they used to call at Sydenham and Forest Hill until the early 1990s I believe) but CX stoppers on the Sydenham line were very much peak flow and Sunday services only. There were other reasons aside from the ELLX as to why CX services were withdrawn, in 2009 South Eastern had opened HS1 and a lot of its services were being restructured as a result and CX needed the platforms for its extra services, so it left no room of 2tph of Southern trains. Also the Thameslink programme pretty much killed those services dead eventually
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Post by route53 on Apr 13, 2020 18:39:51 GMT
Another Dartford route related one.
Once Abbey Wood CrossRail has fully opened, I believe that services on the NKL will be massively restructured to fit this.
There are some who believe the NKL should have the semi fasts again, however others believe that outer suburban services should be made to stop at all stations to London, this is utterly unreasonable to expect outer suburban commuters to pay expensive fares for an all stops metro service.
However I do see that some inner suburban stations need an extra boost, particularly Belvedere & Erith so here’s my idea:
Charing Cross to Rainham & Tonbridge via Lewisham & Woolwich, after LB calls only at Lewisham, Blackheath, Woolwich Arsenal and Abbey Wood then all stations to Strood where the train divides, one portion is all stops to Rainham, the next portion calls only at Maidstone West & Tonbridge, such a service would fit the needs of those in the outer suburbs by being fast, then a stopper in the suburban areas, then giving those areas a semi fast service by calling only at major stations, similar to the Victoria to Dover via Denmark Hill & Bromley South service.
A second service to Tonbridge can be after London Bridge fast to Sidcup, Bexley, Crayford, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, then all stations to Tonbridge
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Post by rif153 on Apr 19, 2020 19:33:10 GMT
Across West London there is a real issue with the lack of fast radial congestion, radial roads are often congestion making bus travel slow and unattractive. There are numerous examples of places which are not too far from one another on paper but in reality are very difficult to travel between. This is why I support the West London orbital. Too many rail lines cross, but frustratingly, one can't change between the two easily. We need services which allow radial links too.
I would run these services: 4tph between Hounslow and Neasden one runs from Staines to Brent Cross West one runs from Staines to Cricklewood one runs from Hounslow to Brent Cross West one runs from Hounslow to Cricklewood
Trains would call at all existing stations on the lines they would use as well as serving new hub stations at Harlesden and Neasden to allow people to change to the Bakerloo, Jubilee and Metropolitan Lines as well as the Overground. They would terminate at the proposed Brent Cross West station to support the redevelopment there.
This would vastly improve connectivity, bringing in connections to Old Oak Common to allow easy interchange to reach destinations such as Brent Cross and Staines. With great ease, people who currently have difficulty changing between rail lines will find possibilities unlocked by the new services. It would make currently slow radial journeys far faster with either a direct service or an easy change at Old Oak Common. This would take pressure of local roads, unblocking key radial routes which are often congested making bus journeys slow and unattractive.
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Post by metrobusfan on Apr 23, 2020 22:52:04 GMT
Ashford int to Waterloo via Denmark Hill
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Post by ADH45258 on May 1, 2020 11:03:54 GMT
A number of proposals to the TFL network:
The Jubilee line extension was built to enable a possible eastern branch from North to Thamesmead. Now that Crossrail will serve Abbey Wood (close to Thamesmead), I propose an alternative branch via Bexleyheath. This would involve a short stretch of tunnel to emerge near the freight sidings to the east of Greenwich Peninsula, then interchange at a new East Greenwich station, replacing the existing Westcombe Park. This would then be followes by using part of the link towards Blackheath, before instead curving in a new tunnel to via a new 'Vanbrugh Park' station, emerging between Kidbrooke and Eltham. The Jubilee line would then stop at new platforms at Eltham, then takeover the line onwards via Bexleyheath to terminate at Slade Green.
Extension of around 6tph Elizabeth line services from Abbey Wood via Erith and Dartford to Ebbsfleet. This would fully take over all existing services between Abbey Wood and Dartford. This extension would interchange with my proposes Jubilee line at Slade Green, as well as Dartford providing connections for services via Sidcup.
I would also separate the Overground's East and South London lines. All East London services from Highbury/Dalston would go via New Cross Gate, with up to 8tph each to Crystal Palace and West Croydon. This would also replace most Southern stopping services via Sydenham, or cause these Southern services to have fewer stops or be diverted via different routes. The East London line would continue between Clapham Junction and Peckham Rye (plus a new stop at Brixton), then go via Nunhead with a new interchange to the East London line at Brockley, before continuing via Lewisham, Blackheath and Kidbrooke to terminate at Eltham, with interchange to the revised Jubilee line.
London Overground would also take over two Southeastern routes. These would start at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street, going through London Bridge to a new interchange station with the East London line (could be called 'Deptford Park' or 'Surrey Canal Junction'). One route would then stop at New Cross (with the interchange providing connections from the current Overground branch to New Cross), then via Lewisham, Sidcup and Bexley to terminate at Dartford. Faster southeastern services could run alongside on the Sidcup route to Gravesend or the Medway towns. The other new overground route would go via Deptford, Greenwich and Woolwich to terminate at Abbey Wood, with interchange to the Elizabeth line.
I would also look at restructuring the Trams network. I would double the track along the north section of the Croydon loop, with all trams going via West Croydon, and none terminating in Croydon town centre. Wimbledon to Beckenham services would continue unchanged, but with a new branch from Harrington Road stop Crystal Palace Station, with possible new stops on Penge Road, Sylvan Road and Anerley Road. This would fully replace the existing Southern services to Beckenham Junction. Services on the New Addington route would extend from Croydon along the National Rail line via Wallington to Sutton (linking Sutton directly to the network rather than a separate northbound route) - these would stop at all existing National Rail stations along the route, plus a new stop at South Beddington (on Plough Lane). Some of these services would also continue from Sutton to take over the Epsom Downs branch, where a tram service might be more suitable due to the low usage. Southern services would no longer run along the section between West Croydon and Sutton, with these either terminating at Croydon, or diverted via Carshalton.
I would also consider the possibility of extending the Northern line from Morden via St Helier to Sutton, to take pressure off National Rail services from Sutton - this could also allow the number of Southern services to Sutton to be reduced, with only those going via Epsom retained, which would all be routed via Carshalton. ThamesLink services could be withdrawn on this section, with a new interchange station between the Northern line and Trams near Morden Road stop for connections to Wimbledon. I also think the Northern line needs to be split, and would opt for the Northern line name to be dropped from both branches, instead shortened versions of the original railway names. The 'City line' would operate from High Barnet or Mill Hill East to Sutton (via Bank), while the 'Hampstead line' would go between Edgware and Battersea or Clapham Junction (via Charing Cross).
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Post by SILENCED on May 1, 2020 11:17:38 GMT
A number of proposals to the TFL network: The Jubilee line extension was built to enable a possible eastern branch from North to Thamesmead. Now that Crossrail will serve Abbey Wood (close to Thamesmead), I propose an alternative branch via Bexleyheath. This would involve a short stretch of tunnel to emerge near the freight sidings to the east of Greenwich Peninsula, then interchange at a new East Greenwich station, replacing the existing Westcombe Park. This would then be followes by using part of the link towards Blackheath, before instead curving in a new tunnel to via a new 'Vanbrugh Park' station, emerging between Kidbrooke and Eltham. The Jubilee line would then stop at new platforms at Eltham, then takeover the line onwards via Bexleyheath to terminate at Slade Green. Extension of around 6tph Elizabeth line services from Abbey Wood via Erith and Dartford to Ebbsfleet. This would fully take over all existing services between Abbey Wood and Dartford. This extension would interchange with my proposes Jubilee line at Slade Green, as well as Dartford providing connections for services via Sidcup. I would also separate the Overground's East and South London lines. All East London services from Highbury/Dalston would go via New Cross Gate, with up to 8tph each to Crystal Palace and West Croydon. This would also replace most Southern stopping services via Sydenham, or cause these Southern services to have fewer stops or be diverted via different routes. The East London line would continue between Clapham Junction and Peckham Rye (plus a new stop at Brixton), then go via Nunhead with a new interchange to the East London line at Brockley, before continuing via Lewisham, Blackheath and Kidbrooke to terminate at Eltham, with interchange to the revised Jubilee line. London Overground would also take over two Southeastern routes. These would start at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street, going through London Bridge to a new interchange station with the East London line (could be called 'Deptford Park' or 'Surrey Canal Junction'). One route would then stop at New Cross (with the interchange providing connections from the current Overground branch to New Cross), then via Lewisham, Sidcup and Bexley to terminate at Dartford. Faster southeastern services could run alongside on the Sidcup route to Gravesend or the Medway towns. The other new overground route would go via Deptford, Greenwich and Woolwich to terminate at Abbey Wood, with interchange to the Elizabeth line. I would also look at restructuring the Trams network. I would double the track along the north section of the Croydon loop, with all trams going via West Croydon, and none terminating in Croydon town centre. Wimbledon to Beckenham services would continue unchanged, but with a new branch from Harrington Road stop Crystal Palace Station, with possible new stops on Penge Road, Sylvan Road and Anerley Road. This would fully replace the existing Southern services to Beckenham Junction. Services on the New Addington route would extend from Croydon along the National Rail line via Wallington to Sutton (linking Sutton directly to the network rather than a separate northbound route) - these would stop at all existing National Rail stations along the route, plus a new stop at South Beddington (on Plough Lane). Some of these services would also continue from Sutton to take over the Epsom Downs branch, where a tram service might be more suitable due to the low usage. Southern services would no longer run along the section between West Croydon and Sutton, with these either terminating at Croydon, or diverted via Carshalton. I would also consider the possibility of extending the Northern line from Morden via St Helier to Sutton, to take pressure off National Rail services from Sutton - this could also allow the number of Southern services to Sutton to be reduced, with only those going via Epsom retained, which would all be routed via Carshalton. ThamesLink services could be withdrawn on this section, with a new interchange station between the Northern line and Trams near Morden Road stop for connections to Wimbledon. I also think the Northern line needs to be split, and would opt for the Northern line name to be dropped from both branches, instead shortened versions of the original railway names. The 'City line' would operate from High Barnet or Mill Hill East to Sutton (via Bank), while the 'Hampstead line' would go between Edgware and Battersea or Clapham Junction (via Charing Cross). You would cut off Southern suburban services to London Bridge ... there would be uproar ... sorry stopped reading at that suggestion
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Post by M1104 on May 1, 2020 11:24:16 GMT
I would also consider the possibility of extending the Northern line from Morden via St Helier to Sutton, to take pressure off National Rail services from Sutton - this could also allow the number of Southern services to Sutton to be reduced, with only those going via Epsom retained, which would all be routed via Carshalton. ThamesLink services could be withdrawn on this section, with a new interchange station between the Northern line and Trams near Morden Road stop for connections to Wimbledon. I also think the Northern line needs to be split, and would opt for the Northern line name to be dropped from both branches, instead shortened versions of the original railway names. The 'City line' would operate from High Barnet or Mill Hill East to Sutton (via Bank), while the 'Hampstead line' would go between Edgware and Battersea or Clapham Junction (via Charing Cross). Incidentally the Northern Line was originally to have ended at Sutton but the suburban railways of the time had the monopoly along the last few miles of the grounds, so it was concluded that the Northern Line was to end at Morden instead. Regarding the renaming, I reckon the section involving the Bank branch and Morden leg should remain as the Northern Line as the first forming of it was between Stockwell and Borough.
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Post by rif153 on May 1, 2020 11:43:51 GMT
A number of proposals to the TFL network: The Jubilee line extension was built to enable a possible eastern branch from North to Thamesmead. Now that Crossrail will serve Abbey Wood (close to Thamesmead), I propose an alternative branch via Bexleyheath. This would involve a short stretch of tunnel to emerge near the freight sidings to the east of Greenwich Peninsula, then interchange at a new East Greenwich station, replacing the existing Westcombe Park. This would then be followes by using part of the link towards Blackheath, before instead curving in a new tunnel to via a new 'Vanbrugh Park' station, emerging between Kidbrooke and Eltham. The Jubilee line would then stop at new platforms at Eltham, then takeover the line onwards via Bexleyheath to terminate at Slade Green. Extension of around 6tph Elizabeth line services from Abbey Wood via Erith and Dartford to Ebbsfleet. This would fully take over all existing services between Abbey Wood and Dartford. This extension would interchange with my proposes Jubilee line at Slade Green, as well as Dartford providing connections for services via Sidcup. I would also separate the Overground's East and South London lines. All East London services from Highbury/Dalston would go via New Cross Gate, with up to 8tph each to Crystal Palace and West Croydon. This would also replace most Southern stopping services via Sydenham, or cause these Southern services to have fewer stops or be diverted via different routes. The East London line would continue between Clapham Junction and Peckham Rye (plus a new stop at Brixton), then go via Nunhead with a new interchange to the East London line at Brockley, before continuing via Lewisham, Blackheath and Kidbrooke to terminate at Eltham, with interchange to the revised Jubilee line. London Overground would also take over two Southeastern routes. These would start at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street, going through London Bridge to a new interchange station with the East London line (could be called 'Deptford Park' or 'Surrey Canal Junction'). One route would then stop at New Cross (with the interchange providing connections from the current Overground branch to New Cross), then via Lewisham, Sidcup and Bexley to terminate at Dartford. Faster southeastern services could run alongside on the Sidcup route to Gravesend or the Medway towns. The other new overground route would go via Deptford, Greenwich and Woolwich to terminate at Abbey Wood, with interchange to the Elizabeth line. I would also look at restructuring the Trams network. I would double the track along the north section of the Croydon loop, with all trams going via West Croydon, and none terminating in Croydon town centre. Wimbledon to Beckenham services would continue unchanged, but with a new branch from Harrington Road stop Crystal Palace Station, with possible new stops on Penge Road, Sylvan Road and Anerley Road. This would fully replace the existing Southern services to Beckenham Junction. Services on the New Addington route would extend from Croydon along the National Rail line via Wallington to Sutton (linking Sutton directly to the network rather than a separate northbound route) - these would stop at all existing National Rail stations along the route, plus a new stop at South Beddington (on Plough Lane). Some of these services would also continue from Sutton to take over the Epsom Downs branch, where a tram service might be more suitable due to the low usage. Southern services would no longer run along the section between West Croydon and Sutton, with these either terminating at Croydon, or diverted via Carshalton. I would also consider the possibility of extending the Northern line from Morden via St Helier to Sutton, to take pressure off National Rail services from Sutton - this could also allow the number of Southern services to Sutton to be reduced, with only those going via Epsom retained, which would all be routed via Carshalton. ThamesLink services could be withdrawn on this section, with a new interchange station between the Northern line and Trams near Morden Road stop for connections to Wimbledon. I also think the Northern line needs to be split, and would opt for the Northern line name to be dropped from both branches, instead shortened versions of the original railway names. The 'City line' would operate from High Barnet or Mill Hill East to Sutton (via Bank), while the 'Hampstead line' would go between Edgware and Battersea or Clapham Junction (via Charing Cross). I think you have some good ideas. I'm a fan of resurrecting the proposed Jubilee Line plans to reach parts of South East London as I think that Really like the idea for a hub station for SE London as I think one is needed. I'm a big fan of building a hub at Brockley to allow for easy interchange between Southern, Southeastern and Overgound services. Some advocate Thameslink stopping at a future Brockley hub but I don't as not only would it be very expensive and disruptive to build Thameslink platforms as there currently isn't any space to put them, but also people can easily change from Thameslink to slower services to reach Brockley and I'm concerned adding a new stop on the Thameslink route could make fast services to London Bridge less attractive. I understand the rationale behind splitting the ELL up into two services, but I think even if you were to create an East-West route, the existing service from Clapham Junction towards Shoreditch are quite popular, although your hub station at Brockley would allow people to change. As SILENCED said I don't think removing the Southern services along the ELL would be popular at all as those people like their services to zone 1 and would not be happy to see them go. I think that for a tram branch to Sutton, it would be a better idea to introduce a tram service to new roads which currently have poor transport connectivity as TfL proposed. Replacing existing rail lines with tram services limits opportunities for serving new areas, the London Cancer Hub for instance would really benefit from a tram service. Even though you could replace the Epsom Downs branch with the Tram and this isn't too bad an idea, I don't think replacing services to Victoria with a tram would be too popular, but could be wrong there as they'd get a more frequent service and be able to change to Southern services at Sutton. An interchange at Morden is definitely a good idea for any proposed Sutton branch of the trams, perhaps with some sort of interchange station between North-South and East-West tram services. The issue with extending the Northern Line from Morden on to Sutton via Morden South (which is very close to Morden Depot) is you then have the issue of breaking up the Sutton loop. Assuming that the Northern Line would take over the Sutton loop from Morden South onwards, you'd then be left either with the Northern Line and Thameslink sharing the loop, which is possible, or Thameslink services terminating at Morden South ''breaking the loop'' and removing the direct connection from Wimbledon to Sutton via St Helier. I realise this is totally unrealistic and not feasible in the slightest, but if it were possible and if money were no object, I'd extend the District Line from Wimbledon to Sutton (two terminating platforms would remain at Wimbledon with two through platforms) but of course it would be too expensive as a flyunder would need to be built to allow the District Line to cross the SWML to get on the other side to continue to Sutton.
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Post by thesquirrels on May 1, 2020 12:15:12 GMT
A number of proposals to the TFL network: The Jubilee line extension was built to enable a possible eastern branch from North to Thamesmead. Now that Crossrail will serve Abbey Wood (close to Thamesmead), I propose an alternative branch via Bexleyheath. This would involve a short stretch of tunnel to emerge near the freight sidings to the east of Greenwich Peninsula, then interchange at a new East Greenwich station, replacing the existing Westcombe Park. This would then be followes by using part of the link towards Blackheath, before instead curving in a new tunnel to via a new 'Vanbrugh Park' station, emerging between Kidbrooke and Eltham. The Jubilee line would then stop at new platforms at Eltham, then takeover the line onwards via Bexleyheath to terminate at Slade Green. Extension of around 6tph Elizabeth line services from Abbey Wood via Erith and Dartford to Ebbsfleet. This would fully take over all existing services between Abbey Wood and Dartford. This extension would interchange with my proposes Jubilee line at Slade Green, as well as Dartford providing connections for services via Sidcup. I would also separate the Overground's East and South London lines. All East London services from Highbury/Dalston would go via New Cross Gate, with up to 8tph each to Crystal Palace and West Croydon. This would also replace most Southern stopping services via Sydenham, or cause these Southern services to have fewer stops or be diverted via different routes. The East London line would continue between Clapham Junction and Peckham Rye (plus a new stop at Brixton), then go via Nunhead with a new interchange to the East London line at Brockley, before continuing via Lewisham, Blackheath and Kidbrooke to terminate at Eltham, with interchange to the revised Jubilee line. London Overground would also take over two Southeastern routes. These would start at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street, going through London Bridge to a new interchange station with the East London line (could be called 'Deptford Park' or 'Surrey Canal Junction'). One route would then stop at New Cross (with the interchange providing connections from the current Overground branch to New Cross), then via Lewisham, Sidcup and Bexley to terminate at Dartford. Faster southeastern services could run alongside on the Sidcup route to Gravesend or the Medway towns. The other new overground route would go via Deptford, Greenwich and Woolwich to terminate at Abbey Wood, with interchange to the Elizabeth line. I would also look at restructuring the Trams network. I would double the track along the north section of the Croydon loop, with all trams going via West Croydon, and none terminating in Croydon town centre. Wimbledon to Beckenham services would continue unchanged, but with a new branch from Harrington Road stop Crystal Palace Station, with possible new stops on Penge Road, Sylvan Road and Anerley Road. This would fully replace the existing Southern services to Beckenham Junction. Services on the New Addington route would extend from Croydon along the National Rail line via Wallington to Sutton (linking Sutton directly to the network rather than a separate northbound route) - these would stop at all existing National Rail stations along the route, plus a new stop at South Beddington (on Plough Lane). Some of these services would also continue from Sutton to take over the Epsom Downs branch, where a tram service might be more suitable due to the low usage. Southern services would no longer run along the section between West Croydon and Sutton, with these either terminating at Croydon, or diverted via Carshalton. I would also consider the possibility of extending the Northern line from Morden via St Helier to Sutton, to take pressure off National Rail services from Sutton - this could also allow the number of Southern services to Sutton to be reduced, with only those going via Epsom retained, which would all be routed via Carshalton. ThamesLink services could be withdrawn on this section, with a new interchange station between the Northern line and Trams near Morden Road stop for connections to Wimbledon. I also think the Northern line needs to be split, and would opt for the Northern line name to be dropped from both branches, instead shortened versions of the original railway names. The 'City line' would operate from High Barnet or Mill Hill East to Sutton (via Bank), while the 'Hampstead line' would go between Edgware and Battersea or Clapham Junction (via Charing Cross). You would cut off Southern suburban services to London Bridge ... there would be uproar ... sorry stopped reading at that suggestion There are good ideas in here but agree that this is a mistake. The eastern section of the Jubilee is already very close to capacity, adding the Bexleyheath branch would need some kind of major signalling upgrade - if that were even possible - as North Greenwich would need to handle upwards of 40tph in each direction with the combined operation. This is one crucial reason behind why a Thamesmead spur is no longer being considered. To expect the a majority Overground/SLL/ELL passengers to pile in on this at Canada Water on top would be a bridge too far, I think. It is asking too much of the Jubilee Line, and assuming the Elizabeth Line will free up enough capacity to make it viable, which I am not sure about at all. Although current events could change that, at least for a few years.
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Post by ADH45258 on May 1, 2020 12:16:06 GMT
A number of proposals to the TFL network: The Jubilee line extension was built to enable a possible eastern branch from North to Thamesmead. Now that Crossrail will serve Abbey Wood (close to Thamesmead), I propose an alternative branch via Bexleyheath. This would involve a short stretch of tunnel to emerge near the freight sidings to the east of Greenwich Peninsula, then interchange at a new East Greenwich station, replacing the existing Westcombe Park. This would then be followes by using part of the link towards Blackheath, before instead curving in a new tunnel to via a new 'Vanbrugh Park' station, emerging between Kidbrooke and Eltham. The Jubilee line would then stop at new platforms at Eltham, then takeover the line onwards via Bexleyheath to terminate at Slade Green. Extension of around 6tph Elizabeth line services from Abbey Wood via Erith and Dartford to Ebbsfleet. This would fully take over all existing services between Abbey Wood and Dartford. This extension would interchange with my proposes Jubilee line at Slade Green, as well as Dartford providing connections for services via Sidcup. I would also separate the Overground's East and South London lines. All East London services from Highbury/Dalston would go via New Cross Gate, with up to 8tph each to Crystal Palace and West Croydon. This would also replace most Southern stopping services via Sydenham, or cause these Southern services to have fewer stops or be diverted via different routes. The East London line would continue between Clapham Junction and Peckham Rye (plus a new stop at Brixton), then go via Nunhead with a new interchange to the East London line at Brockley, before continuing via Lewisham, Blackheath and Kidbrooke to terminate at Eltham, with interchange to the revised Jubilee line. London Overground would also take over two Southeastern routes. These would start at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street, going through London Bridge to a new interchange station with the East London line (could be called 'Deptford Park' or 'Surrey Canal Junction'). One route would then stop at New Cross (with the interchange providing connections from the current Overground branch to New Cross), then via Lewisham, Sidcup and Bexley to terminate at Dartford. Faster southeastern services could run alongside on the Sidcup route to Gravesend or the Medway towns. The other new overground route would go via Deptford, Greenwich and Woolwich to terminate at Abbey Wood, with interchange to the Elizabeth line. I would also look at restructuring the Trams network. I would double the track along the north section of the Croydon loop, with all trams going via West Croydon, and none terminating in Croydon town centre. Wimbledon to Beckenham services would continue unchanged, but with a new branch from Harrington Road stop Crystal Palace Station, with possible new stops on Penge Road, Sylvan Road and Anerley Road. This would fully replace the existing Southern services to Beckenham Junction. Services on the New Addington route would extend from Croydon along the National Rail line via Wallington to Sutton (linking Sutton directly to the network rather than a separate northbound route) - these would stop at all existing National Rail stations along the route, plus a new stop at South Beddington (on Plough Lane). Some of these services would also continue from Sutton to take over the Epsom Downs branch, where a tram service might be more suitable due to the low usage. Southern services would no longer run along the section between West Croydon and Sutton, with these either terminating at Croydon, or diverted via Carshalton. I would also consider the possibility of extending the Northern line from Morden via St Helier to Sutton, to take pressure off National Rail services from Sutton - this could also allow the number of Southern services to Sutton to be reduced, with only those going via Epsom retained, which would all be routed via Carshalton. ThamesLink services could be withdrawn on this section, with a new interchange station between the Northern line and Trams near Morden Road stop for connections to Wimbledon. I also think the Northern line needs to be split, and would opt for the Northern line name to be dropped from both branches, instead shortened versions of the original railway names. The 'City line' would operate from High Barnet or Mill Hill East to Sutton (via Bank), while the 'Hampstead line' would go between Edgware and Battersea or Clapham Junction (via Charing Cross). You would cut off Southern suburban services to London Bridge ... there would be uproar ... sorry stopped reading at that suggestion Stations between New Cross Gate and Sydenham currently only have 4tph into London Bridge, compared to 8tph Overground via Canada Water. I can see this may not be ideal, but it would rationalise the service, by instead giving 12-16tph along this section towards Dalston/Highbury. There are a few alternative routes into central London from similar areas - Southern services from Crystal Palace, Southeastern from Penge East, or Thameslink from Crofton Park. The Overground route also enables a number of interchanges for central London, such as the Jubilee line at Canada Water. I also have proposed to open a new interchange station between New Cross Gate and Surrey Quays, to connect with southeastern services into London Bridge - these are more frequent than 4tph and give continued links into Cannon Street or Charing Cross. In the future, there will also be interchange at New Cross Gate to the Bakerloo line extension. Another possibility may also be to introduce a semi-fast southern service between Croydon and London Bridge, with a few key intermediate stops - such as New Cross Gate, Sydenham or an interchange station at Brockley.
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Post by ADH45258 on May 1, 2020 12:20:55 GMT
You would cut off Southern suburban services to London Bridge ... there would be uproar ... sorry stopped reading at that suggestion There are good ideas in here but agree that this is a mistake. The eastern section of the Jubilee is already very close to capacity, adding the Bexleyheath branch would need some kind of major signalling upgrade - if that were even possible - as North Greenwich would need to handle upwards of 40tph in each direction with the combined operation. This is one crucial reason behind why a Thamesmead spur is no longer being considered. To expect the a majority Overground/SLL/ELL passengers to pile in on this at Canada Water on top would be a bridge too far, I think. It is asking too much of the Jubilee Line, and assuming the Elizabeth Line will free up enough capacity to make it viable, which I am not sure about at all. Although current events could change that, at least for a few years. Some Jubilee line services already terminate at North Greenwich, and some Stratford services could be diverted to the Bexleyheath branch. The Jubilee line is significantly quiter east of Canary Wharf or North Greenwich, as it is partly paralleled by the DLR from Canning Town, plus other lines are available into central London from Stratford, West Ham and Canning Town, which may be more direct to many destinations. I think TFL did have plans at some point to curtail more Jubilee line services short of Stratford and Stanmore - as a means to increase the frequency of the core section, due to the possible cancellation of more rolling stock. This would have resulted in a significant number of trains running only from North Greenwich to West Hampstead or Willesden Green.
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