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Post by vjaska on May 18, 2021 21:28:44 GMT
That's the phrase I wanted to see before I tailor my response. Impartially, TfL should NOT be hacking services in the outer boroughs if they want to encourage people out of their cars. Punters will not be lured to the shops by a very infrequent service. It's true for anyone in the 'outer ring' of London and even in the home counties. I've even spoken to a few new acquaintances in Watford who admit to using the "London buses there", 142 and 258 to us enthusiasts; for every local journey because buses are frequent and reliable. Whilst the central London cuts were not palatable to most, it makes sense to cut services in inner London where there are loads of other alternatives. With the 25 cuts for example, those bus passengers between Holborn Circus and Oxford Circus were pretty much forced to use the Central line; a quicker, more frequent service. When you cut both the 101 and 262 to Beckton, where's the alternative when the only route's reliability is down the latrine? Partial mode on, the 366 isn't sufficient alone in the Gallions Reach area. As just stated, Gallions Reach will be left high and dry should buses on the 366 curtail southbound anywhere before Gallions Reach Station. Which the route is prone to doing by the way as pulling the only bus route short from Redbridge is much more painful on passengers than at the Beckton end. Capacity on paper may be sufficient (and I highly doubt that as a local), but the 366 is too unreliable especially in the Beckton area for it to be alone for a major shopping objective in the Shopping Park, the warehouse depots and the DLR depot in Gallions Reach. At the very least, have the 366 and a 262 curtailed to Gallions Reach, Shopping Park. And I also find your comment about forum members not accepting cuts as hurtful. Do routes 218 and 306 really need to run between Hammersmith and Acton, under the guise of the 266 being too long and unreliable alone for that stretch, yet TfL propose to create the same conditions for the 366 in Gallions Reach? Top notch nonsensical thinking if you ask me. Acton to Hammersmith is a corridor of very dense residential population. It has a naturally high level of usage because of that. Anywhere with lots of chimney pots will. Gallons Reach to Beckton is almost the exact opposite. It's car-centric planned. Little in the way of residential population. It's not hurtful at all, my comment was done in jest and 90% could detect that from the tone. The 366 has also consistently met or exceeded it's performance targets hence it got a 2 year extension. How's that unreliable? Prone to delays yes but clearly not horrendous. Facts show that. You may be a local but at the end of the day you aren't a planner with access to all the relevant data for the area network - I trust that view. Informed decisions should be made. It's car centric planned which isn't surprising when the A406 is next door and the A13 up the road but taking out buses, especially taking out two routes, seems rather backwards thinking then as one of the objective of transport is to offer a suitable alternative at least to cars and the 366 left on it's own with single deckers does not seem a particularly good alternative. Surely all this would do is attract more cars to that area?
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Post by redexpress on May 18, 2021 21:50:24 GMT
I agree with the sentiment but surely even you must admit hacking back both routes is overkill You're left with just the 366 along that stretch, which is 6bph when demand requires 4bph. Some would even argue *that's* overkill. I think that's a good balance personally and TfL seem to feel the same. I'm not too familiar with the area, but maybe leaving just the 6(ish)bph double deck service, the 262, would be a better idea? Definitely room for efficiency there though. Also it'd surely make sense for the widened 11 minute on the 262 to be dropped to a standard 5bph headway or for some of the envisaged saved resource to be put into a slightly better 6bph headway. Actually the consultation stated that current peak demand is equivalent to 4 *double-deckers* per hour. The 366 uses buses with a theoretical capacity of 55, compared with 87 for a double-decker, so 6bph is the bare minimum to meet the demand. I do agree with the general point you're making but I think there is valid criticism to be made of TfL's choices if they decide that the single-deck 366 is sufficient on its own. Route planning shouldn't be done on the basis of using 100% of available capacity.
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 19, 2021 21:50:34 GMT
You're left with just the 366 along that stretch, which is 6bph when demand requires 4bph. Some would even argue *that's* overkill. I think that's a good balance personally and TfL seem to feel the same. I'm not too familiar with the area, but maybe leaving just the 6(ish)bph double deck service, the 262, would be a better idea? Definitely room for efficiency there though. Also it'd surely make sense for the widened 11 minute on the 262 to be dropped to a standard 5bph headway or for some of the envisaged saved resource to be put into a slightly better 6bph headway. That's the phrase I wanted to see before I tailor my response. Impartially, TfL should NOT be hacking services in the outer boroughs if they want to encourage people out of their cars. Punters will not be lured to the shops by a very infrequent service. It's true for anyone in the 'outer ring' of London and even in the home counties. I've even spoken to a few new acquaintances in Watford who admit to using the "London buses there", 142 and 258 to us enthusiasts; for every local journey because buses are frequent and reliable. Whilst the central London cuts were not palatable to most, it makes sense to cut services in inner London where there are loads of other alternatives. With the 25 cuts for example, those bus passengers between Holborn Circus and Oxford Circus were pretty much forced to use the Central line; a quicker, more frequent service. When you cut both the 101 and 262 to Beckton, where's the alternative when the only route's reliability is down the latrine? Partial mode on, the 366 isn't sufficient alone in the Gallions Reach area. As just stated, Gallions Reach will be left high and dry should buses on the 366 curtail southbound anywhere before Gallions Reach Station. Which the route is prone to doing by the way as pulling the only bus route short from Redbridge is much more painful on passengers than at the Beckton end. Capacity on paper may be sufficient (and I highly doubt that as a local), but the 366 is too unreliable especially in the Beckton area for it to be alone for a major shopping objective in the Shopping Park, the warehouse depots and the DLR depot in Gallions Reach. At the very least, have the 366 and a 262 curtailed to Gallions Reach, Shopping Park. And I also find your comment about forum members not accepting cuts as hurtful. Do routes 218 and 306 really need to run between Hammersmith and Acton, under the guise of the 266 being too long and unreliable alone for that stretch, yet TfL propose to create the same conditions for the 366 in Gallions Reach? Top notch nonsensical thinking if you ask me. Well the people voted for Khan, so they can't complain
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Post by dlroper on May 20, 2021 6:58:11 GMT
Normally mean a result is being announced soon. Not surprising now the Purdah is over and TFL want to save money. I wouldn't be surprised though if some revisions happen. Maybe the 262 remaining as far as Gallions Reach using the 101 stand with the 101 cut back to Beckton. Agree with this - The provision of the 366 262 & 101 beyond Beckton BS has always seemed overkill to me - especially as all 3 quite often bunch and if missed mean a 12-15 minute wait on a 3 bus route. The 366 is very useful and connects Beckton & Barking bridging the not inconsiderable barrier of Barking Creek - is generally well loaded (not just because it's SD). The 262 is also useful as it provides a connection out of the Gallions / Beckton "bump" DIRECT to Stratford and the rest of the world but also intersects the District at Plaistow. Retain these 2 beyond Beckton towards Gallions and the 101 could quite legitimately stop at Beckton BS - it's capacity to the area being handled by the 262 / 366. This is just my opinion based on 4 years of use between Gallions & Beckton DLR depot .................
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Post by LondonNorthern on May 20, 2021 16:03:16 GMT
If I was TFL I might have looked at it this way:
Route 101: Diverted to Custom House from Beckton via the 304 (yes I know it would involve a double run but either via Cyprus or directly via Newham General - but as has been mentioned would the 474 be able to cope on its own especially when it was extended as an extra East Ham/Manor Park to Beckton Route.
Route 104/262/366: Kept on current route
Route 304 done away with
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Post by ronnie on May 20, 2021 16:35:02 GMT
Normally mean a result is being announced soon. Not surprising now the Purdah is over and TFL want to save money. I wouldn't be surprised though if some revisions happen. Maybe the 262 remaining as far as Gallions Reach using the 101 stand with the 101 cut back to Beckton. Agree with this - The provision of the 366 262 & 101 beyond Beckton BS has always seemed overkill to me - especially as all 3 quite often bunch and if missed mean a 12-15 minute wait on a 3 bus route. The 366 is very useful and connects Beckton & Barking bridging the not inconsiderable barrier of Barking Creek - is generally well loaded (not just because it's SD). The 262 is also useful as it provides a connection out of the Gallions / Beckton "bump" DIRECT to Stratford and the rest of the world but also intersects the District at Plaistow. Retain these 2 beyond Beckton towards Gallions and the 101 could quite legitimately stop at Beckton BS - it's capacity to the area being handled by the 262 / 366. This is just my opinion based on 4 years of use between Gallions & Beckton DLR depot ................. Makes sense. I live near but not local local so someone else can comment on exact flows - but this is the most acceptable compromise solution I can think of The 262 arguably provides better links while anyone on the 101’s LOR can change buses fairly conveniently
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 15, 2021 10:08:49 GMT
I contacted TfL over the delay from this consultation page doing a Houdini and the publication of the results.
Seems we might still need to wait a month or so for result publication.
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 29, 2021 10:36:58 GMT
Page updated. All to go ahead apart from the 262 which will now run to Gallions Reach Shopping centre.
Effectively doing what everyone though was logical to remove the 101 but keep the 262.
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Post by WH241 on Sept 29, 2021 10:48:39 GMT
Page updated. All to go ahead apart from the 262 which will now run to Gallions Reach Shopping centre. Effectively doing what everyone though was logical to remove the 101 but keep the 262. Just received the email at work. Good news they have decided to give the 366 support to Gallions Reach. Not sure what's going on with the 241 because that change would need to take place at the same time as the 474 which is linked to the Elizabeth Line unless they plane to proceed earlier than the line opens. They can't leave Keir Hardie with just the 147. Looks like I'll need a new user name as local route of 30 years will be no more once diverted 😁
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Post by mkay315 on Sept 29, 2021 10:58:14 GMT
I'm in two minds about how I feel with the changes. Whilst understandable I wouldn't be surprised to see the 101 disappear in the future. Ever since it's removal from North Woolwich in 2005 the 101 has just been a supporting route for others. Even with the 474 being introduced in 1999 the 101 hasn't had a section to itself since that time. I hope I could be wrong but watch this space.
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Post by wirewiper on Sept 29, 2021 11:07:51 GMT
I'm in two minds about how I feel with the changes. Whilst understandable I wouldn't be surprised to see the 101 disappear in the future. Ever since it's removal from North Woolwich in 2005 the 101 has just been a supporting route for others. Even with the 474 being introduced in 1999 the 101 hasn't had a section to itself since that time. I hope I could be wrong but watch this space. Lose the 101 though and what happens to the routes it supports? It still has a purpose.
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Post by busman on Sept 29, 2021 11:18:59 GMT
Page updated. All to go ahead apart from the 262 which will now run to Gallions Reach Shopping centre. Effectively doing what everyone though was logical to remove the 101 but keep the 262. Just received the email at work. Good news they have decided to give the 366 support to Gallions Reach. Not sure what's going on with the 241 because that change would need to take place at the same time as the 474 which is linked to the Elizabeth Line unless they plane to proceed earlier than the line opens. They can't leave Keir Hardie with just the 147. Looks like I'll need a new user name as local route of 30 years will be no more once diverted 😁 It may happen once the Elizabeth line opens. The report states that the date for these changes is still tbc, but are unlikely to happen before winter 21/22. I’m not local to the area, but the decision to maintain part of the 262 seems like a good outcome. Even though it was a crazy idea, I thought that TfL would go ahead and leave the 366 to fend for itself between Beckton and East Beckton.
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Post by routew15 on Sept 29, 2021 11:22:28 GMT
I'm in two minds about how I feel with the changes. Whilst understandable I wouldn't be surprised to see the 101 disappear in the future. Ever since it's removal from North Woolwich in 2005 the 101 has just been a supporting route for others. Even with the 474 being introduced in 1999 the 101 hasn't had a section to itself since that time. I hope I could be wrong but watch this space. Lose the 101 though and what happens to the routes it supports? It still has a purpose. Not just that but a journey from East Ham to Wanstead would involve 3 different bus routes where it is currently one. I’m not sure it will be withdrawn but it may eventually adopt a lower frequency 4bph daytime, 3bph all other times.
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Post by mkay315 on Sept 29, 2021 11:37:59 GMT
I'm in two minds about how I feel with the changes. Whilst understandable I wouldn't be surprised to see the 101 disappear in the future. Ever since it's removal from North Woolwich in 2005 the 101 has just been a supporting route for others. Even with the 474 being introduced in 1999 the 101 hasn't had a section to itself since that time. I hope I could be wrong but watch this space. Lose the 101 though and what happens to the routes it supports? It still has a purpose. Perhaps but anything is possible. Take for instance the 48 and 55 fiasco and the 88 and C2. Again I do hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be surprised in the future if it somehow disappeared.
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Post by WH241 on Sept 29, 2021 11:51:23 GMT
I'm in two minds about how I feel with the changes. Whilst understandable I wouldn't be surprised to see the 101 disappear in the future. Ever since it's removal from North Woolwich in 2005 the 101 has just been a supporting route for others. Even with the 474 being introduced in 1999 the 101 hasn't had a section to itself since that time. I hope I could be wrong but watch this space. The East Ham to Manor Park corridor is very busy this is why the 474 was extended to provide support to the 101 and 104.
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