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Post by DE20106 on Oct 21, 2023 13:25:28 GMT
I guess it’s all opinion based but I think the BYD wipes the floor with the Electroliner. I find it very very underwhelming, and I’ve never been a fan of the claustrophobic small windows on the top deck, on any newer Wright product. Ive been wondering why I’ve always found the newest Wright products quite poor (looking at you diesel Streetdeck) and I think I’ve found the answer: they haven’t innovated. Since Wrightbus brought out the Gemini 1 in 2001, it’s barely changed since then. The Gemini 2 in 2009 was merely a facelift with a snazzy new front light arrangement (although I’m not knocking it, the G2 is one of my favourite buses ever), and when the G3 came out, it was another facelift of the same bodywork, just with more angular front lights, worse build quality and smaller windows. And two of those things aren’t improvements. So essentially apart from a couple of tweaks which arguably make the bus worse, it’s underneath a very very similar product to what they bought out in 2001. Apart from Wright bringing out their own integral version of the bus in the form of the StreetDeck in 2015, which to be blunt is one of the very worst buses ever made. It hardly sets the industry alight. No wonder their offering now feels a bit long in the tooth imo. The angular design (which has been unchanged for nearly TEN years now), has ages fairly well imo, but not much else about the bus has. Take ADL on the other scale who have completely reinvented the model every time its life cycle ends. The Enviro400 was a total reinvention of the ALX400. The MMC and City was completely reinvented from the ground up. And the new integral E400EV coming next year will do the same thing, it’s been completely redesigned. ADL products are certainly not without their issues, but at least they go for it with their designs. Wright just keep making more of the same, and I really think they need to come up with something brand new to compete with the new E400EV coming, not just ‘redesign’ the Electroliner with some new slimmer front headlights Indeed, it is all opinion based and great to see different opinions as always - whilst the BYD is not terrible by any means, that terrible rear downstairs seating room is very poor for an operator who has previous for this with the dreadful pre WTA Enviro 200's and on Scania & MAN Enviro 200's. In comparison, the exterior of the Electroliner is still not my cup of tea at all but inside, it's superior personally especially the Abellio ones with the glass panels - really looking to the 133 examples. The Enviro 400 double deck bodies have all been good lookers and I've always preferred the look of them over the Gemini range but in terms of riding the bus, the Gemini models trump most of them IMO especially when comparing the Gemini2 (both B9TL & VDL) You’re right the G2 to ride on is superior to just about anything, very smooth (in Volvo form, DWs are okay) and build quality is exceptional, with fantastic visibility thanks to huge windows. In the G2’s case it made sense to facelift it as the G1 was already a good product, so don’t fix what isn’t broken. But the G3/Streetdeck certainly wasn’t/isn’t an improvement, the build quality is atrocious. It’s a shame Wright went downhill, clearly customers agreed as they nearly went under in 2019. But they really need to come up with something different now imo, as I really don’t think their current offering is as good as it was
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Post by ADH45258 on Oct 21, 2023 13:26:59 GMT
It's interesting to note the BYD orders are bulked out by 2 operators placing volume orders, GAL and NXWM. There isn't much else in the way of orders. Rivals meanwhile have a much more order diverse orderbook which is interesting indeed. Okay that’s in interesting point that I hadn’t considered, but could that also be to do with operators waiting for the new E400EV to come out, and operators have made early orders for that instead? We’re not sure what the order book is looking like for that yet I certainly won’t be surprised to see BYD/E400 City orders die a slow death after the new ADL E400EV’s release So far only one Stagecoach order has been confirmed for the new E400EV, I think for Oxford? Since the Streetdeck (and GB Kite) front end is being redesigned to fit new TFL regulations, do we know if the current BYD/City is compliant? If not, operators such as Go Ahead may have to switch to the integral. Otherwise I think operators like Abellio or Stagecoach with more of a mixed fleet at the moment may go for the new E400EV. But others who already have a large BYD fleet (Go Ahead & RATP) might choose to stick with the BYD for standardisation. I also wonder how soon the E100EV will start production, and if ADL will launch a new integral E200EV to match the rest of the range?
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Post by TB123 on Oct 21, 2023 13:35:43 GMT
Okay that’s in interesting point that I hadn’t considered, but could that also be to do with operators waiting for the new E400EV to come out, and operators have made early orders for that instead? We’re not sure what the order book is looking like for that yet I certainly won’t be surprised to see BYD/E400 City orders die a slow death after the new ADL E400EV’s release So far only one Stagecoach order has been confirmed for the new E400EV, I think for Oxford? Since the Streetdeck (and GB Kite) front end is being redesigned to fit new TFL regulations, do we know if the current BYD/City is compliant? If not, operators such as Go Ahead may have to switch to the integral. Otherwise I think operators like Abellio or Stagecoach with more of a mixed fleet at the moment may go for the new E400EV. But others who already have a large BYD fleet (Go Ahead & RATP) might choose to stick with the BYD for standardisation. I also wonder how soon the E100EV will start production, and if ADL will launch a new integral E200EV to match the rest of the range? 55 integral E400EVs for Stagecoach Oxford and 19 for Transdev Harrogate-Leeds route 36 (feat OppCharge) Most of the ZEBRA orders have now been placed too, only Blackpool (58 doubles & 57 singles), Nottingham (66 of 78 singles), West yorks (15 singles for Transdev Flyer) plus reallocated MK/Herts funding orders left to be placed.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Oct 21, 2023 13:40:41 GMT
Indeed, it is all opinion based and great to see different opinions as always - whilst the BYD is not terrible by any means, that terrible rear downstairs seating room is very poor for an operator who has previous for this with the dreadful pre WTA Enviro 200's and on Scania & MAN Enviro 200's. In comparison, the exterior of the Electroliner is still not my cup of tea at all but inside, it's superior personally especially the Abellio ones with the glass panels - really looking to the 133 examples. The Enviro 400 double deck bodies have all been good lookers and I've always preferred the look of them over the Gemini range but in terms of riding the bus, the Gemini models trump most of them IMO especially when comparing the Gemini2 (both B9TL & VDL) You’re right the G2 to ride on is superior to just about anything, very smooth (in Volvo form, DWs are okay) and build quality is exceptional, with fantastic visibility thanks to huge windows. In the G2’s case it made sense to facelift it as the G1 was already a good product, so don’t fix what isn’t broken. But the G3/Streetdeck certainly wasn’t/isn’t an improvement, the build quality is atrocious. It’s a shame Wright went downhill, clearly customers agreed as they nearly went under in 2019. But they really need to come up with something different now imo, as I really don’t think their current offering is as good as it was I think the issue Wright have is that while they make good buses, they are often behind innovation wise. They were quite late to the electric game and in the meantime ADL hoovered up orders everywhere. I would be very interested in seeing the rationale operators are using to order Wright at the moment, and how many are ordering Wright due to ADL having a backlog now.
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Post by WH241 on Oct 21, 2023 13:53:24 GMT
The route has not begun yet how exactly do you know that all the buses will be turned at Barking… You mentioned the same thing about the SL1 being curtailed to Crooked Billet because of the 34. Overall the operators will do what TFL want. Service delays 30% Rule turn every bus and send one bus through an hour until the delays have finished any controller will tell you this. At least let the route start off first then you can start your usual criticism… snoggle RIP always commented on the 123 I know he would give us his honest views of the SL2 on a weekly basis and would be happy to know that the 123 is finally getting some assistance. In addition I like how you waited until page 8 of the tender thread to finally comment. Did you have a moment of shock? Now already making criticism of something that has not begun yet. No, I was at work and also have a life so I cannot constantly be on the forum 24/7 This company are guilty until proved innocent. If the SL2 runs fine then that's what I want, but there's no reason to believe it will. Why is there no reason to believe they will run it fine? You have made your mind up before a wheel has even turned.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Oct 21, 2023 13:57:23 GMT
No, I was at work and also have a life so I cannot constantly be on the forum 24/7 This company are guilty until proved innocent. If the SL2 runs fine then that's what I want, but there's no reason to believe it will. Why is there no reason to believe they will run it fine? You have made your mind up before a wheel has even turned. No, I'm expecting them to run it poorly as they usually run dual carriageway routes poorly. I however would like them to run it well, end of the day we need a good service and if they run it well then I'll have no reason to complain.
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Post by enviroPB on Oct 21, 2023 14:59:00 GMT
A bit cheeky of DB to state I Squared are willing to invest in Arriva's future. Clearly they heard the term 'spend money to make money ' and in true venture capitalist style, chose to ignore it over a decade! If the Americans are interested to spend a billion in electric investment in Arriva, ironically the same amount DB lost after the sale, then we should be ushering a new era in Arriva's future.
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Post by sp17 on Oct 21, 2023 15:45:51 GMT
From what I’ve heard although I haven’t travelled on one, but the new electroliners have much better build quality than the previous ones. I’ve always preferred Wright products, they’re just better in my opinion as having driven all sorts of them and travelled on many.
I saw some Abellio models at Earls Court last Saturday and they look sublime and I’m sure I saw one with a larger rear window.
With regards to the Gemini, a new model is being developed which I suspect will have a lower deck layout similar to the new TfL specifications. I’m in the minority that thinks it’s the best looking DD on offer right now. They’ve always looked classy.
Wright have had their issues which we are all aware of and some of that was morale and the drive to make the buses lighter but that said Wright are leaps and bounds ahead of ADL when it comes to design, like the things that matter to an operator. Blind spots, cab layout, panels and how easy they can be replaced ect
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 21, 2023 22:26:22 GMT
Just would have loved to see the look of the guy with the rose tinted glasses face reading the reveal of the SL2. The company was unfortunate over not securing the el routes and a few others which was ultimately spelling the death bed for [DX] The good thing is in the South some of the routes that were not in favour of being secured has been with the combined group bid I don't have an issue with DX winning it, the issue starts when every bus will now end up turned short at Barking in masses when something goes wrong on the A406. Still got the 150 and 175 to go, would assume any benefit DX gets will be reliant on both those routes staying. Hmm so you are the rose tinted glases guy, lol Anyway never judge a book by its cover. The SL routes would have different operation differences to normal bus routes.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 21, 2023 22:28:18 GMT
Wright are very quick at delivering. The batch for the 64 is complete, it's more a case of infrastructure slowing down the entry to service. I think the Electroliner is excellent. Much better than the BYD product if you ask me. Hoping to see lots more ordered by Arriva for this group of results. Interested to see what 255 gets..... I am not a fan of the BYD product. Mainly the poor lower deck layout. I actually cannot wait for Alexander Dennis to dump the BYD chassis in favour of their own.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 21, 2023 22:30:27 GMT
And what makes you think any other operators wouldn’t do the same? The SL2 is going to be a very challenging route regardless of who runs it with the A13 close by,A406 and Ilford Lane causing issues. Because other operators don't have a habit of shutting down portions of the route every week? They do, just you have selective rose tinted glasses that does not see when Stagecoach does it.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 21, 2023 22:38:38 GMT
I think the Electroliner is excellent. Much better than the BYD product if you ask me. Hoping to see lots more ordered by Arriva for this group of results. Interested to see what 255 gets..... I guess it’s all opinion based but I think the BYD wipes the floor with the Electroliner. I find it very very underwhelming, and I’ve never been a fan of the claustrophobic small windows on the top deck, on any newer Wright product. Ive been wondering why I’ve always found the newest Wright products quite poor (looking at you diesel Streetdeck) and I think I’ve found the answer: they haven’t innovated. Since Wrightbus brought out the Gemini 1 in 2001, it’s barely changed since then. The Gemini 2 in 2009 was merely a facelift with a snazzy new front light arrangement (although I’m not knocking it, the G2 is one of my favourite buses ever), and when the G3 came out, it was another facelift of the same bodywork, just with more angular front lights, worse build quality and smaller windows. And two of those things aren’t improvements. So essentially apart from a couple of tweaks which arguably make the bus worse, it’s underneath a very very similar product to what they bought out in 2001. Apart from Wright bringing out their own integral version of the bus in the form of the StreetDeck in 2015, which to be blunt is one of the very worst buses ever made. It hardly sets the industry alight. No wonder their offering now feels a bit long in the tooth imo. The angular design (which has been unchanged for nearly TEN years now), has ages fairly well imo, but not much else about the bus has. Take ADL on the other scale who have completely reinvented the model every time its life cycle ends. The Enviro400 was a total reinvention of the ALX400. The MMC and City was completely reinvented from the ground up. And the new integral E400EV coming next year will do the same thing, it’s been completely redesigned. ADL products are certainly not without their issues, but at least they go for it with their designs. Wright just keep making more of the same, and I really think they need to come up with something brand new to compete with the new E400EV coming, not just ‘redesign’ the Electroliner with some new slimmer front headlights The smaller windows are there to reduce heat in the summer and also weight. When I was growin up the only bus with large windows was the Titan, other double deckers had small windows. They never felt calustrphobic. At least the feel spacious on both decks on the Electroliner unlike the school kid pitch of seats on the BYD/400
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Post by DE20106 on Oct 21, 2023 22:43:04 GMT
I think the Electroliner is excellent. Much better than the BYD product if you ask me. Hoping to see lots more ordered by Arriva for this group of results. Interested to see what 255 gets..... I am not a fan of the BYD product. Mainly the poor lower deck layout. I actually cannot wait for Alexander Dennis to dump the BYD chassis in favour of their own. I’m intrigued at the fact ADL aren’t bringing out the full sized single decker coming out with the Enviro400 and 100EV next year, just a dinky little 8.5m single decker. There’s probably one coming further down the line, butI would have thought it would make sense to bring the new range out all at the same time. Tbf the BYD E200EV is a near faultless product imo which because it’s a single decker doesn’t have the restrictive headspace everyone rants about. So they probably don’t feel a need to replace it yet. Imo the only Achilles heel of the single decker is the poor turning circle. It could also be the deal with BYD they had, maybe their not allow to fully cut ties with them yet or make a competing product for every bus type that would reduce BYD’s market share. Either way, even if the new E400 does put a stranglehold on the existing BYD/E400City, BYD will still be around for a while yet with the single deckers But overall I’m surprised ADL are just able to drop BYD like a hot potato at all, and bring their own product out after just four years of the collaboration
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Post by TB123 on Oct 21, 2023 22:47:02 GMT
I am not a fan of the BYD product. Mainly the poor lower deck layout. I actually cannot wait for Alexander Dennis to dump the BYD chassis in favour of their own. I’m intrigued at the fact ADL aren’t bringing out the full sized single decker coming out with the Enviro400 and 100EV next year, just a dinky little 8.5m single decker. Tbf the BYD E200EV is a near faultless product imo which because it’s a single decker doesn’t have the restrictive headspace everyone rants about. So they probably don’t feel a need to replace it yet. Could also be the deal with BYD they had, maybe their not allow to fully cut ties with them yet or make a competing product for every bus type that would reduce BYD’s market share. Either way, even if the new E400 does put a stranglehold on the existing BYD/E400City, BYD will still be around for a while yet with the single deckers Must just be then who thinks the Byd E200EV has lots of shortcomings, namely the tiny amount of accessible seats on shorter models. The same issue applies to the new shorter BZL models, very poor design. The Caetano has the issue of huge steps to the seats too although I really like that bus overall. Only the Metrocity has really got the closest thing to an optimum layout for a 9.5m length bus imo. We can land a man on the moon but can't get an all-rounder electric bus....
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Post by vjaska on Oct 21, 2023 23:03:29 GMT
I am not a fan of the BYD product. Mainly the poor lower deck layout. I actually cannot wait for Alexander Dennis to dump the BYD chassis in favour of their own. Imo the only Achilles heel of the single decker is the poor turning circle. Is this really a thing? I saw it mentioned for the 366 receiving 10.2m examples but surely that isn't a thing when it has multiple 10.9m examples now allocated, even if only temporary?
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