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Post by redbus on Apr 14, 2020 18:21:20 GMT
We need to separate facts from opinion. The facts are that 12 bus workers have very sadly passed away due to coronavirus and this is truly dreadful. My heart goes out to their families. As far as I know no one knows for sure how these bus workers contracted coronavirus, it may or may not be through work. Was it contracted from another passenger, or inside the bus cab for instance? I am not sure anyone knows. It therefore makes sense to take as many precautions as one can, be it extra cleaning of cabs, distancing from passengers etc, just in case that is what is responsible. I would hate there to be further deaths due to a lack of precautions. Only if the said precaution works - I'm still very dubious how locking the front door prevents a driver from getting it when he/she is already behind an assault screen and doesn't have any interaction when it comes to money from a passenger. Any precautions need to be taken elsewhere IMO for drivers to be properly protected. Not only that but it moves the issue to the passengers who are subsequently increased in terms of the chance they catch due to the proximity of other passengers to them. You are probably right, but I am no expert and if there is a risk and this closes down the risk and potentially saves a bus driver from contracting coronavirus then it could be worthwhile. As for supermarkets, in my experience some are better than others, but all should be ensuring suitable social distancing and safe working conditions for staff. Safe working conditions should be available to all, whether bus drivers, tube drivers, health workers, supermarket workers.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 14, 2020 18:24:24 GMT
Only if the said precaution works - I'm still very dubious how locking the front door prevents a driver from getting it when he/she is already behind an assault screen and doesn't have any interaction when it comes to money from a passenger. Any precautions need to be taken elsewhere IMO for drivers to be properly protected. Not only that but it moves the issue to the passengers who are subsequently increased in terms of the chance they catch due to the proximity of other passengers to them. You are probably right, but I am no expert and if there is a risk and this closes down the risk and potentially saves a bus driver from contracting coronavirus then it could be worthwhile. As for supermarkets, in my experience some are better than others, but all should be ensuring suitable social distancing and safe working conditions for staff. Safe working conditions should be available to all, whether bus drivers, tube drivers, health workers, supermarket workers. The problem is many members of the public haven't had it drilled into their head enough. There's only so much distancing a shelf stacker can do when people are crowding around them left right and centre. Nobody seems to be following the one way systems in shops and people who are queuing for checkouts don't seem to be listening to the 2 meter rule either. As long as this keeps up nobody is safe, sadly.
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Post by redbus on Apr 14, 2020 18:32:27 GMT
You are probably right, but I am no expert and if there is a risk and this closes down the risk and potentially saves a bus driver from contracting coronavirus then it could be worthwhile. As for supermarkets, in my experience some are better than others, but all should be ensuring suitable social distancing and safe working conditions for staff. Safe working conditions should be available to all, whether bus drivers, tube drivers, health workers, supermarket workers. The problem is many members of the public haven't had it drilled into their head enough. There's only so much distancing a shelf stacker can do when people are crowding around them left right and centre. Nobody seems to be following the one way systems in shops and people who are queuing for checkouts don't seem to be listening to the 2 meter rule either. As long as this keeps up nobody is safe, sadly. Unfortunately there are a lot of very stupid people about. I was out and there was a woman with her child who came far too close. When I suggested having a suitable social distance she said 'well if you believe the hype...….' Clearly she was in complete denial about what was happening and puts herself and others at risk. Worse she went to the bus stop and waited for a bus, and I do wonder what was her 'essential journey' with a child in tow and getting a bus. If you get people like that in the supermarket, what hope do the poor supermarket workers have? Maybe supermarket workers need masks.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 14, 2020 19:52:25 GMT
It's quite clear what the problem is - by doing this, we are bringing in a method that not only puts passengers at risk but is in effect labelling them as the cause when plenty of different people have said that the problem of drivers being infected could easily be down to cleaning practices at garages not being followed or enforced. Blocking the entrance door is highly unlikely going to have any effect when drivers are routinely pointing out about cleanliness issues. Something I was thinking about the other day is social distancing is impossible for passengers on buses. I know it's not practical but no attempt has been made for example for every other row of seats taken out of use. If certain rows were taken out what about you sitting down in a seat that someone could've sat down on who potentially could've had NCOV and contracted it. The front rows should be out of use for the safety of drivers. If possible, TfL with reduced amount of buses running could potentially make it so routes that have a night route separate to the daytime (207 + N207), the 207 could use different buses to the N207 so that drivers have much less chance of being infected with COVID. It's dangerous imo to not be cleaning buses properly - of which drivers have clearly stated, there not being facilities that the government say there should be like anti viral hand sanitizer.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 14, 2020 20:11:42 GMT
Only if the said precaution works - I'm still very dubious how locking the front door prevents a driver from getting it when he/she is already behind an assault screen and doesn't have any interaction when it comes to money from a passenger. Any precautions need to be taken elsewhere IMO for drivers to be properly protected. Not only that but it moves the issue to the passengers who are subsequently increased in terms of the chance they catch due to the proximity of other passengers to them. Vjaska I get that you are unwell, and stressed about this situation, and work in a supermarket so compare this with the bus drivers job a few posts up. Supermarkets (the ones that I see) are doing an excellent job at the moment trying to encourage social distancing, with the two-metre queues and limiting the number of people that enter the shop. I get that this all falls down when people see the cashier (the one person who often is closest to customers while seeing the widest range of people) but the precaution by limiting numbers entering and encouraging best practice is appreciated. Bus drivers don't have security staff to limit numbers, and with concentrating on the road and elements unique to their role cannot spend their whole time monitoring social distancing and where people sit/stand. Due to the numbers of bus users, this means that the two-metre principle cannot always be adhered to, meaning further risk of a bus becoming a breeding ground for the virus to be passed on and linger. The bus driver is the person who has to stay in the vehicle for the whole time, regularly for spells up to 5.5 hours. Also, supermarket workers have access to facilities on site should they need them. Buses do not have a supply of soap and hot water within them, and facilities at terminus points can be very inadequate. The ability for a driver to wash their hands properly in a setting which is hygienic might not exist from the time they leave their home to when they return back home after completing a shift. This is where shielding methods and use of PPE is so important. Public transport is dirty. There are germs and bugs everywhere. Anywhere that sells food is inspected and made sure to be clean, or at least at a reasonable level. There is a great deal of difference between the supermarket and the bus, and enhanced cleaning regimes on vehicles are important both for staff and passengers. Also, without sounding like I'm trying to provoke anything, I have heard of 12 bus drivers who have died recently because of this virus, I haven't heard of any supermarket floor staff or supply chain workers which this has happened to. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to get one up within this thread, but Redbus is right, the facts say something needs to be done, whether we can pick bits out to dissect from the situation or not. Hopefully post NCOV we take better hygienic precautions across cleaning buses and in fact anywhere where there is constant social interaction, however unfortunately in society, in places like supermarkets, public transportation and even smaller things like parking ticket machines, bus stop bells, door handles, it's just very easy to contract bugs and germs from these sorts of things. I personally, felt like the whole washing hands for 20 seconds announcement was only something emphasised around now and although it is a very important instruction to follow, it is something we should've always been doing when coming from a public space where we could contract bugs. We, in London and the UK compared to the other parts of the world, and other periods of history have clean water supplies and very good amounts of soap. I hope post NCOV there is much more emphasis on washing hands for 20 seconds, as well as better sanitisation. My condolences go to the families whos loved ones have lost their lives working on the frontline, I respect their courage to work on the frontline in a global virus that is easily transmitted. I saw on my local bus, a single decker a good 7 people on one bus not very well spread apart and there was then the driver. I saw someone sat on the front seats of the SD and I would've thought they'd have shut those seats off purely for safety. Also, in areas like Northolt where they have the DP for meal relief and remote sign on (I believe) adequate hand sanitizer could be provided on the bus for the safety of drivers
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Post by vjaska on Apr 15, 2020 0:30:52 GMT
Whilst we may have soap & water, that doesn’t mean supermarkets have been cleaned properly unless you have competent management which isn’t always the case. Shop floor workers like myself who don’t work on tills have no protection from customers who regularly do not observe distancing and those on tills are handling money constantly so it’s not all in supermarkets - drivers in comparison have a big screen and practically no interaction anyway. In the case of drivers, it’s clear that the issue lies elsewhere but that passengers are being unfairly labelled as the cause by introduction of this trial when drivers have complained that cleaning standards and lack of PPE is what’s putting them at risk. If drivers are picking up the virus from home or garages, shutting the front door will do nothing to solve the issue and instead heightens the risk for passengers when all should be protected. I agree that where the issue lies is impossible to pin down - however more initiatives are better than less so a combination of cleaning + PPE + distancing from the driver should be the safest situation. I don't see how the door trial can be monitored though, you can't used Covid cases as (as you say) you don't know where it's come from...... I agree that more initiatives are better but so far, only one or two has been applied and IMO, one is the least effective one and the one that sends out a stigma towards passengers. Drivers interactions with passengers are almost zero in London - assault screens holes have been blocked in and drivers don't handle cash so the likelihood of catching something from a passenger is low with the initiative of closing the nearest seats off as a safety net anyway. This leads me to believe that cleaning standards at garages are not up to scratch and that drivers are succumbing to it that way but TfL seem very uninterested in this issue just like they aren't interested in equipping drivers with PPE which have been proven to offer protection.
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Post by Alex on Apr 15, 2020 1:04:07 GMT
This leads me to believe that cleaning standards at garages are not up to scratch and that drivers are succumbing to it that way but TfL seem very uninterested in this issue just like they aren't interested in equipping drivers with PPE which have been proven to offer protection. Indeed, I think many people would agree with this Also, in areas like Northolt where they have the DP for meal relief and remote sign on (I believe) adequate hand sanitizer could be provided on the bus for the safety of drivers This is the sort of thing I mean about facilities, I've read about this parked up DP on here, it's pretty effing bad really isn't it
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 15, 2020 7:41:33 GMT
This leads me to believe that cleaning standards at garages are not up to scratch and that drivers are succumbing to it that way but TfL seem very uninterested in this issue just like they aren't interested in equipping drivers with PPE which have been proven to offer protection. Indeed, I think many people would agree with this Also, in areas like Northolt where they have the DP for meal relief and remote sign on (I believe) adequate hand sanitizer could be provided on the bus for the safety of drivers This is the sort of thing I mean about facilities, I've read about this parked up DP on here, it's pretty effing bad really isn't it Could drivers always go on strike if they thought that as buses weren't sanitary enough that they didn't need to come to work?
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Post by greenboy on Apr 15, 2020 8:15:30 GMT
Indeed, I think many people would agree with this This is the sort of thing I mean about facilities, I've read about this parked up DP on here, it's pretty effing bad really isn't it Could drivers always go on strike if they thought that as buses weren't sanitary enough that they didn't need to come to work? Staff issues about cleanliness of buses really is a matter for operators and not something TfL have any direct control over, standards probably vary between garages.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 15, 2020 9:00:38 GMT
Could drivers always go on strike if they thought that as buses weren't sanitary enough that they didn't need to come to work? Staff issues about cleanliness of buses really is a matter for operators and not something TfL have any direct control over, standards probably vary between garages. I suppose but could said garage staff members not attend work or strike because they believe that they are indirectly coming into contact with people (e.g buses not cleaned properly - drivers cleanliness may not be the best due to no sanitizer facilities, could also be cramped into a ferry shuttle with lots of drivers therefore increasing contact)
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Post by greenboy on Apr 15, 2020 9:07:32 GMT
Staff issues about cleanliness of buses really is a matter for operators and not something TfL have any direct control over, standards probably vary between garages. I suppose but could said garage staff members not attend work or strike because they believe that they are indirectly coming into contact with people (e.g buses not cleaned properly - drivers cleanliness may not be the best due to no sanitizer facilities, could also be cramped into a ferry shuttle with lots of drivers therefore increasing contact) Operators should be using full size buses for crew ferry duties to enable safe distancing.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 15, 2020 10:11:58 GMT
I suppose but could said garage staff members not attend work or strike because they believe that they are indirectly coming into contact with people (e.g buses not cleaned properly - drivers cleanliness may not be the best due to no sanitizer facilities, could also be cramped into a ferry shuttle with lots of drivers therefore increasing contact) Operators should be using full size buses for crew ferry duties to enable safe distancing. As someone mentioned - this hasn't been the case at MB.
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Post by redbus on Apr 15, 2020 14:56:16 GMT
Operators should be using full size buses for crew ferry duties to enable safe distancing. As someone mentioned - this hasn't been the case at MB. I think the aim should be for a driver to stay with his bus all shift with the bus cab being thoroughly cleaned between drivers. With Sunday schedules there should be extra buses to allow this on many routes. That is doable for buses where the changeover is at one end of the route. Where the driver changeover is mid-route that is much more difficult. Potentially you need a cleaning team at the changeover point (with suitable protection) to clean the bus cab at driver changeover, or a change of bus (meaning the passengers swap bus instead of the driver). We do know that coronavirus is contracted via the mouth / nose / eyes, so the other possibility is giving drivers suitable protective PPE, and arguably gloves, but from where you would get that PPE is another matter. As for cleaning, sure that is an Operator matter, but I would argue also a TfL matter. If TfL want to specify a cleaning regime across London buses I feel sure they could do so and Operators would co-operate with them to achieve that.
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Post by ctrh136 on Apr 15, 2020 16:21:41 GMT
As someone mentioned - this hasn't been the case at MB. I think the aim should be for a driver to stay with his bus all shift with the bus cab being thoroughly cleaned between drivers. With Sunday schedules there should be extra buses to allow this on many routes. That is doable for buses where the changeover is at one end of the route. Where the driver changeover is mid-route that is much more difficult. Potentially you need a cleaning team at the changeover point (with suitable protection) to clean the bus cab at driver changeover, or a change of bus (meaning the passengers swap bus instead of the driver). We do know that coronavirus is contracted via the mouth / nose / eyes, so the other possibility is giving drivers suitable protective PPE, and arguably gloves, but from where you would get that PPE is another matter. As for cleaning, sure that is an Operator matter, but I would argue also a TfL matter. If TfL want to specify a cleaning regime across London buses I feel sure they could do so and Operators would co-operate with them to achieve that. Also there are some instances where the depots are quite far away from termini / changeover points, for example EB and the 404. Doubt even with a Sunday level of service on all routes that would work.
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Post by ctrh136 on Apr 16, 2020 16:56:40 GMT
Not sure if this is the right place, but how is it being decided which routes have a Saturday and which will move to a Sunday service? I noticed that the 407 moved to a Sunday service whereas for instance the 403 has not (looked to be carrying very few people though).
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