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Post by ADH45258 on Sept 13, 2020 9:09:30 GMT
Battery technology may improve significantly within the next 10 years and I wouldn’t be surprised if a battery can be developed with the same range as a diesel bus and fit into a similar engine space. If this is the case it would be feasible for series hybrids to be converted to electric, however, the LT body isn’t built to last 20+ years so it’s unlikely that it would be worth the investment. Far better to build buses from scratch which have been designed with zero emissions in mind and therefore don’t have a fuel tank and have sufficient battery cooling systems etc. Does anyone know how long the BYD batteries are designed to last for? Will the BCEs/BDEs/Ees and their single decker equivalents need mid-life battery replacement? Just read your post. I won't speculate too much on the body life of an LT, but I suspect that with care it will last somewhat longer than the expected life of the bus as a whole. Remember the Routemaster (RM) was only designed for a 17 year life. In respect of the BYD batteries I understand they are guaranteed for 5 years and this I think can be extended to 10 years. Elsewhere I read the batteries will retain 75% of their maximum charge for 10 years. I therefore think the batteries should be good for 10 years, but given the bus should last somewhat longer, I suspect battery replacement will happen at some point. It's a shame TFL didn't think ahead and design the LT to be electric instead for a longer use - or even intended to be retrofitted to fully electric when necessary.
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 13, 2020 9:22:05 GMT
Just read your post. I won't speculate too much on the body life of an LT, but I suspect that with care it will last somewhat longer than the expected life of the bus as a whole. Remember the Routemaster (RM) was only designed for a 17 year life. In respect of the BYD batteries I understand they are guaranteed for 5 years and this I think can be extended to 10 years. Elsewhere I read the batteries will retain 75% of their maximum charge for 10 years. I therefore think the batteries should be good for 10 years, but given the bus should last somewhat longer, I suspect battery replacement will happen at some point. It's a shame TFL didn't think ahead and design the LT to be electric instead for a longer use - or even intended to be retrofitted to fully electric when necessary. Electric deckers were still fantasy when the LT was being designed ... so don't think that is an accusation that can be levelled at TfL
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Post by ADH45258 on Sept 13, 2020 9:42:13 GMT
It's a shame TFL didn't think ahead and design the LT to be electric instead for a longer use - or even intended to be retrofitted to fully electric when necessary. Electric deckers were still fantasy when the LT was being designed ... so don't think that is an accusation that can be levelled at TfL Perhaps not to introduce the LT as fully electric initially, but there would have been an aim at the time to introduce electric DDs at a certain point. So there could have been a plan to convert LTs to fully electric in the future to extend their use, especially as LTs are unlikely to have much further use when withdrawn from TFL service.
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Post by wirewiper on Sept 13, 2020 10:33:15 GMT
Electric deckers were still fantasy when the LT was being designed ... so don't think that is an accusation that can be levelled at TfL Perhaps not to introduce the LT as fully electric initially, but there would have been an aim at the time to introduce electric DDs at a certain point. So there could have been a plan to convert LTs to fully electric in the future to extend their use, especially as LTs are unlikely to have much further use when withdrawn from TFL service. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The prototype LTs entered service in 2012 and mass production commenced in 2013. Also in 2013 TfL was taking its first baby-steps into all-electric bus operation with its first two BYD single-deckers on Red Arrow routes. Remember how crude they were? At that time, the possibility of a viable all-electric double decker would have seemed way off into the future, it is only the increasing awareness of climate change worldwide since then that has driven the rapid development of electric buses.
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Post by LJ17THF on Sept 13, 2020 11:23:34 GMT
Perhaps not to introduce the LT as fully electric initially, but there would have been an aim at the time to introduce electric DDs at a certain point. So there could have been a plan to convert LTs to fully electric in the future to extend their use, especially as LTs are unlikely to have much further use when withdrawn from TFL service. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The prototype LTs entered service in 2012 and mass production commenced in 2013. Also in 2013 TfL was taking its first baby-steps into all-electric bus operation with its first two BYD single-deckers on Red Arrow routes. Remember how crude they were? At that time, the possibility of a viable all-electric double decker would have seemed way off into the future, it is only the increasing awareness of climate change worldwide since then that has driven the rapid development of electric buses. Yes, many people made fun of the BYD's, but look at them now! Now they are probably the largest provider of electric bus chassis. The phrase everyone says is "there's room for improvement", and BYD took that with a good heart and collaborated with a really good bus body designer, together making some of the best buses of the 21st century.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 13, 2020 11:38:20 GMT
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The prototype LTs entered service in 2012 and mass production commenced in 2013. Also in 2013 TfL was taking its first baby-steps into all-electric bus operation with its first two BYD single-deckers on Red Arrow routes. Remember how crude they were? At that time, the possibility of a viable all-electric double decker would have seemed way off into the future, it is only the increasing awareness of climate change worldwide since then that has driven the rapid development of electric buses. Yes, many people made fun of the BYD's, but look at them now! Now they are probably the largest provider of electric bus chassis. The phrase everyone says is "there's room for improvement", and BYD took that with a good heart and collaborated with a really good bus body designer, together making some of the best buses of the 21st century. It's funny remembering when everyone initially saw the BYDs and they looked awful upon delivery, however time went on and as you say look at them now. A very clever business decision partnering with ADL effectively relieved them of most of the pressure to design a good body giving them time to work on the technology itself. Amazing how far things have come and now we will soon probably have the buses all over the place. Which seemed impossible a few years ago.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 13, 2020 12:27:22 GMT
Electric deckers were still fantasy when the LT was being designed ... so don't think that is an accusation that can be levelled at TfL Perhaps not to introduce the LT as fully electric initially, but there would have been an aim at the time to introduce electric DDs at a certain point. So there could have been a plan to convert LTs to fully electric in the future to extend their use, especially as LTs are unlikely to have much further use when withdrawn from TFL service. Electric deckers were merely a pipe dream at that moment and the investment was still heading towards hybrid vehicles which themselves had only began to be ordered as full allocations a year or two prior to the first LT's. The hybrid only rule didn't come in for a few years either so to suggest they should of made provisions for electric operation is unrealistic
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Post by COBO on Oct 3, 2020 23:28:28 GMT
So has it been announced what type of electric single deckers will the 358 be getting?
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Post by YY13VKP on Oct 3, 2020 23:30:19 GMT
So has it been announced what type of electric single deckers will the 358 be getting? No not yet, there's rumours going around that it could be using MMC's off the Red Arrow routes but that remains to be seen with the tender results for the 507/521 just around the corner. In addition I don't believe any infrastructure has been installed at MB as of yet.
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Post by COBO on Oct 3, 2020 23:32:22 GMT
So has it been announced what type of electric single deckers will the 358 be getting? No not yet, there's rumours going around that it could be using MMC's off the Red Arrow routes but that remains to be seen with the tender results for the 507/521 just around the corner. In addition I don't believe any infrastructure has been installed at MB as of yet. I thought that it was getting brand new electrics.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 4, 2020 0:12:21 GMT
So has it been announced what type of electric single deckers will the 358 be getting? No not yet, there's rumours going around that it could be using MMC's off the Red Arrow routes but that remains to be seen with the tender results for the 507/521 just around the corner. In addition I don't believe any infrastructure has been installed at MB as of yet. Can not see the logic behind that. If brand new electric vehicles are alleged to have an insufficient range, the 4-5 year old electrics definitely won't have the range. One of those arguments has to be false
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Post by M1104 on Oct 4, 2020 7:45:22 GMT
So has it been announced what type of electric single deckers will the 358 be getting? No not yet, there's rumours going around that it could be using MMC's off the Red Arrow routes but that remains to be seen with the tender results for the 507/521 just around the corner. In addition I don't believe any infrastructure has been installed at MB as of yet. If lost they'd be the next ideal type for capacity increase on the 355, after deckers.
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Post by wirewiper on Oct 4, 2020 8:45:47 GMT
So has it been announced what type of electric single deckers will the 358 be getting? No not yet, there's rumours going around that it could be using MMC's off the Red Arrow routes but that remains to be seen with the tender results for the 507/521 just around the corner. In addition I don't believe any infrastructure has been installed at MB as of yet. Londonbusroutes.net has a tentative date of January 2022 for the new electrics. It could be that Go-Ahead is anticipating the development of a longer-range electric vehicle by then and may even possibly be involved in its development. I can't see spare electrics from the 507/521 going on to the 358. TfL will want to see how loadings recover in the long term before committing some of the buses elsewhere.
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Post by YY13VKP on Oct 4, 2020 9:59:02 GMT
No not yet, there's rumours going around that it could be using MMC's off the Red Arrow routes but that remains to be seen with the tender results for the 507/521 just around the corner. In addition I don't believe any infrastructure has been installed at MB as of yet. If lost they'd be the next ideal type for capacity increase on the 355, after deckers. At the last round of tenders surprisingly it was only Go-Ahead who bidded for the 507 and 521 so I'd be surprised if it's lost.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Oct 4, 2020 11:20:01 GMT
If lost they'd be the next ideal type for capacity increase on the 355, after deckers. At the last round of tenders surprisingly it was only Go-Ahead who bidded for the 507 and 521 so I'd be surprised if it's lost. Not quite, while Go Ahead were the only bidder for the 521 there was a second bidder for the 507 and my money is on Abellio.
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