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Post by busaholic on Mar 24, 2020 16:29:42 GMT
Slightly broadening the topic the long closed Riverside Garage on the Hammersmith gyratory could cause problems. The stands within the garage for terminating buses on the 27, 73, 74b and 290 did not cause a problem. Difficulties arose with the peak evening run in. The garage wash facility was situated literally ON the corner of Talgarth Road and Queen Caroline Street. To access the garage at this time buses including 30ft RMLs (I know that is not long nowadays, but it was then), had to be situated in the middle lane of the gyratory ready to do what was about a 45 degree turn. Drivers would have to slide open their cab doors and frantically wave their arms to stop traffic undertaking on the island side of the gyratory. The inside staff worked very hard to make sure buses were moved up the line as quickly as possible, but on occasions a bus would be sticking slightly out into the traffic if a driver miscalculated the space left. Pedestrians would be forced to wait for the bus to be moved up or have to take their life into their hands and walk out into the contiuous evening peak traffic of Hammersmith Broadway. If a Riverside crew was unlucky they might have to do 4 laps of the gyratory before they could access the washes. An 11 for instance might find the entrance full and proceed around the Broadway to find the buses in the same place. On the second lap a 266 might have accessed the gyratory from Beadon Road and so be ahead of the 11 to gain the next free space. On the 3rd lap a 74b from Fulham Palace Road might gain pole position and so jump the queue. Needless to say as these buses were empty of passengers they did not have to access the bus station at Butterwick but stayed with the general traffic. If you happened to be waiting for a bus at Butterwick the constant revolutions of the same bus over a short period of time provided a bit of entertainment. Often the driver would quickly pull up on the offside of the gyratory so that the conductor could at least get back to the output to begin to count their takings. Linking to the modern day like most people on here I could not believe that TfL had the nerve to withdraw the 10. During the 1960s/70s and 80s if you had been waiting at Butterwick in the evening peak you would also have witnessed processions of 73s(the 10s predecessor),disgorging full loads of passengers. The Tottenham crews were certainly hardworked. Having struggled from Stoke Newington or Kings Cross through Oxford Street to Hammersmith Broadway, they would usually be late and often finishing their shift on return. Once all the passengers had alighted at Butterwick, the driver used to look back into the bus and check that the conductor did not need the toilet and head straight round the gyratory back to Tottenham Garage without accessing the stand within Riverside Garage. The Tottenham crews certainly earned their money. I think I read somewhere that at this time during the week Tottenham had 96 duties on the 73. Around the time you were talking about (and thanks for that, very interesting) on a route like the 73 with a frequent interpeak and evening service, as a rough rule of thumb you could multiply the pvr by three, so 96 duties would probably have been right. My, admittedly limited, observations on the 73 out of Tottenham around then concur with yours about the hardworking nature of a lot of their regular crews |
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Post by riverside on Mar 24, 2020 16:43:49 GMT
The Brook Green stand at Hammersmith often overflows when an avalanche of rail replacement buses descends on it The Brook Green Hotel stand is a classic example of an offside stand that LT were happy to use years ago, even though boarding and alighting from buses involved crossing the road. In its heyday of the 1960s/1970s the stand was extremely busy. On Monday to Friday even when the 11 still went to Shepherds Bush, half the service turned at Brook Green. During Monday to Friday offpeak Dalston 9s shortworked from Liverpool Street to Hammersmith but stand space in Riverside Garage was taken up by other routes and so these journeys headed to Brook Green. Hammersmith Brook Green Hotel was shown as the destination and passengers were carried, but little use was made of the facility. One day I arrived at Butterwick and when I got there an incident happened on a Dalston 9 when a passenger wanted to stay on till Brook Green but the conductor wanted to eject the passenger at Butterwick. Things obviously had got very heated because the conductor had removed his Gibson ticket machine and smacked it on the passenger's head causing a deep gash. Inspectors were frantically trying to sort things out. Also on the stand at Brook Green there was for a short while the 71 between its withdrawal from East Acton and replacement by a daily service on the 90C. Shortworking buses on the 72 regularly terminated as did the Hounslow service on the 73 (replaced by a revived 33 from the end of 1966). On Monday to Friday rush hours and Saturday even the 116 appeared. As a small boy it was a great place for bus spotting. In the evening and at weekends from 1965 the 255 also used the stand. The stand was so busy that a mobile canteen was provided there at the junction with Barb Mews and there were toilets for LT staff. An inspector was also on duty to regulate services. Monday to Saturdays were extremely busy at Brook Green, in contrast to Sunday when there would usually be just a solitary Twickenham RT on the 90C. At that time the whole of the 11 service went through to Shepherds Bush on Sundays. For a short while the 90C was joined by the 255. In November 1967 the 90C moved to the new stand at the Met. Station, leaving just RMLs on the 255. In February 1969 the Sunday service on the 255 was withdrawn and its replacement was the 19A from Battersea Garage. At that time there were no bus stand flags at the stand and as there were no other routes to take a cue from, Battersea 19As could often be seen parked on the nearside by the pavement, which was easier for passengers but definitely unusual at Brook Green. In the 1970s increasing car use caused a problem in the evenings. Nearby on Shepherds Bush Road there was the famous Hammersmith Palais(immortalised by the Clash), and an Irish Dance Hall called the Garryowen. Patrons of these two establishments would badly park their cars on either side of the narrow entrance to the stand and buses could often not gain access. Some drivers would try and become stuck. Other drivers would have to carry on along Shepherds Bush Road and then reverse onto the stand. During the evening the stand was still busy as in addition to daytime routes(whose frequency would be less in the evening), the stand had to find space for shortworking buses on the 27, 73 and 74B, as these routes could after about 9.pm no longer access their official stands within Riverside as the space was needed to park up buses from R. The problem caused quite a bit of unnecessary disruption to a wide range of services, so in the end buses on the 27, 73 and 74B were told to park up just before the bus stops on the north side of Hammersmith Bridge Road. I don't recall there being any bus stand markings on the road here and there was certainly no flag. Routes like the 11 and 33 were still however subject to disruption. It is good to see what was once such an important stand, still clinging on, even if it is just for rail replacement services. |
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Post by busaholic on Mar 24, 2020 17:22:28 GMT
The Brook Green stand at Hammersmith often overflows when an avalanche of rail replacement buses descends on it The Brook Green Hotel stand is a classic example of an offside stand that LT were happy to use years ago, even though boarding and alighting from buses involved crossing the road. In its heyday of the 1960s/1970s the stand was extremely busy. On Monday to Friday even when the 11 still went to Shepherds Bush, half the service turned at Brook Green. During Monday to Friday offpeak Dalston 9s shortworked from Liverpool Street to Hammersmith but stand space in Riverside Garage was taken up by other routes and so these journeys headed to Brook Green. Hammersmith Brook Green Hotel was shown as the destination and passengers were carried, but little use was made of the facility. One day I arrived at Butterwick and when I got there an incident happened on a Dalston 9 when a passenger wanted to stay on till Brook Green but the conductor wanted to eject the passenger at Butterwick. Things obviously had got very heated because the conductor had removed his Gibson ticket machine and smacked it on the passenger's head causing a deep gash. Inspectors were frantically trying to sort things out. Also on the stand at Brook Green there was for a short while the 71 between its withdrawal from East Acton and replacement by a daily service on the 90C. Shortworking buses on the 72 regularly terminated as did the Hounslow service on the 73 (replaced by a revived 33 from the end of 1966). On Monday to Friday rush hours and Saturday even the 116 appeared. As a small boy it was a great place for bus spotting. In the evening and at weekends from 1965 the 255 also used the stand. The stand was so busy that a mobile canteen was provided there at the junction with Barb Mews and there were toilets for LT staff. An inspector was also on duty to regulate services. Monday to Saturdays were extremely busy at Brook Green, in contrast to Sunday when there would usually be just a solitary Twickenham RT on the 90C. At that time the whole of the 11 service went through to Shepherds Bush on Sundays. For a short while the 90C was joined by the 255. In November 1967 the 90C moved to the new stand at the Met. Station, leaving just RMLs on the 255. In February 1969 the Sunday service on the 255 was withdrawn and its replacement was the 19A from Battersea Garage. At that time there were no bus stand flags at the stand and as there were no other routes to take a cue from, Battersea 19As could often be seen parked on the nearside by the pavement, which was easier for passengers but definitely unusual at Brook Green. In the 1970s increasing car use caused a problem in the evenings. Nearby on Shepherds Bush Road there was the famous Hammersmith Palais(immortalised by the Clash), and an Irish Dance Hall called the Garryowen. Patrons of these two establishments would badly park their cars on either side of the narrow entrance to the stand and buses could often not gain access. Some drivers would try and become stuck. Other drivers would have to carry on along Shepherds Bush Road and then reverse onto the stand. During the evening the stand was still busy as in addition to daytime routes(whose frequency would be less in the evening), the stand had to find space for shortworking buses on the 27, 73 and 74B, as these routes could after about 9.pm no longer access their official stands within Riverside as the space was needed to park up buses from R. The problem caused quite a bit of unnecessary disruption to a wide range of services, so in the end buses on the 27, 73 and 74B were told to park up just before the bus stops on the north side of Hammersmith Bridge Road. I don't recall there being any bus stand markings on the road here and there was certainly no flag. Routes like the 11 and 33 were still however subject to disruption. It is good to see what was once such an important stand, still clinging on, even if it is just for rail replacement services. Another classic offside stand was that at Lewisham on two adjoining side streets, one beside and one behind the Odeon cinema, scene of an oft-quoted bout of Beatlemamia around 1963, and where I saw the Rolling Stones, fifth on the bill, in 1964. But I digress! The one in Rennell Street was particularly difficult because it sloped significantly downwards on the offside, so that anyone small or even slightly physically impaired had a huge step up or leap down. Until opo it was a very busy stop for both boarding and alighting, as it was the main Lwisham shopping stop for routes like the 94 and 89, and the 'shorts' from the Lee direction on the 21 and 122. |
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Post by greg on Mar 24, 2020 20:11:18 GMT
Hampstead Heath is a weird terminus because when the 168 alights at Royal Free the roads are so tight and the bus stops mean no other car can go past ITS THAT TIGHT with an LT route. 11m electric buses, surprising. If an 168 is on the stand, the other LT the back will kinda be inbetween both roads as it turns left and then does a circle back to Rosslyn Hill.
The 24 stand at Hampstead Heath, WHY DOES IT GO INTO THAT CIRCLE, theres a block of houses right outside the stand in this horseshoe shape and two buses always block the entrance by standing at the back and then not allowing other buses especially if a bus breaks down. Buses have to then stand at the alighting point.
I THINK that the 24 should stand at its alighting point and then just turn right to Cressy Road. Theres no problem tbh its stand its further from Royal Free. It doesnt need to go straight and into a circle shape road and a block of flats. Wastes time.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 24, 2020 20:51:07 GMT
Did all the 73s from Hammersmith run to Stoke Newington? I belive there were shorts from Stokie to Kensington Palace Gate.
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Post by busaholic on Mar 24, 2020 21:17:14 GMT
Did all the 73s from Hammersmith run to Stoke Newington? I belive there were shorts from Stokie to Kensington Palace Gate. Probably late runners, as I don't think Holland Road was used to turn anything other than 49s at the time, so it was the nearest available terminus to Hammersmith. It was, in those days, regarded by L.T. as not being near enough to Ken High Street to schedule turns from the east: from the west was another matter, of course! |
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Post by riverside on Mar 24, 2020 21:19:12 GMT
Did all the 73s from Hammersmith run to Stoke Newington? I belive there were shorts from Stokie to Kensington Palace Gate. The 73 regularly had scheduled short workings Monday to Saturday between Stoke Newington and Kensington Palace Gate. This was another unusual stand as the buses parked right in the middle of Queens Gate Terrace. This still is a wide, very well heeled road with room for parking in the middle. The bus stand was clearly marked causing an interruption to the parking for cars that was offered for the rest of the length of the road. Passengers did not board or alight here. The 52 and 73 would display Kensington Palace Gate on destination blinds, however, the stand was used by the 27. The latter route used the stand for unscheduled turns, although in the early 1980s when I worked at Stamford Brook, for a few years there were regular scheduled short workings by V on a Saturday between Richmond and Kensington.If my memory serves me correctly the whole of duty 8 on a Saturday at this time consisted of Richmond-Kensington shorts. As the stand was so far off route buses approaching from the west displayed Kensington High Street(passengers alighted opposite the station), while buses coming from the north displayed Kensington Church with passengers alighting at the last stop on Kensington Church Street. |
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Post by busaholic on Mar 24, 2020 21:23:58 GMT
Did all the 73s from Hammersmith run to Stoke Newington? I belive there were shorts from Stokie to Kensington Palace Gate. The 73 regularly had scheduled short workings Monday to Saturday between Stoke Newington and Kensington Palace Gate. This was another unusual stand as the buses parked right in the middle of Queens Gate Terrace. This still is a wide, very well heeled road with room for parking in the middle. The bus stand was clearly marked causing an interruption to the parking for cars that was offered for the rest of the length of the road. Passengers did not board or alight here. The 52 and 73 would display Kensington Palace Gate on destination blinds, however, the stand was used by the 27. The latter route used the stand for unscheduled turns, although in the early 1980s when I worked at Stamford Brook, for a few years there were regular scheduled short workings by V on a Saturday between Richmond and Kensington.If my memory serves me correctly the whole of duty 8 on a Saturday at this time consisted of Richmond-Kensington shorts. As the stand was so far off route buses approaching from the west displayed Kensington High Street(passengers alighted opposite the station), while buses coming from the north displayed Kensington Church with passengers alighting at the last stop on Kensington Church Street. My memory on that one was way out! There were Marble Arch turns from Stoke N in the peaks at one time too. |
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Post by richard on Mar 24, 2020 22:15:31 GMT
Dose Muswell Hill count? When I have been there it looks a bit awkward when I see buses manoeuvring.
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Post by 6HP502C on Mar 24, 2020 22:45:46 GMT
The Brook Green stand at Hammersmith often overflows when an avalanche of rail replacement buses descends on it - makes it very difficult for cars to pass buses as the road is narrow and buses are often badly parked It's a strange stand riddled with more than its fair share of hazards - that hump on entry, the narrow clearance, the hire cycles and the offside kerb on the bend. The blind left turn out of there is a bit of a trap - the green light out of the stand leads straight into a red light at the next junction which will lead to a yellow box violation if there are any cars sitting in that short stretch of road. Many a driver has been slapped with a PCN for not handling it correctly! |
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Post by thelondonthing on Mar 24, 2020 23:48:23 GMT
The Brook Green stand at Hammersmith often overflows when an avalanche of rail replacement buses descends on it The Brook Green Hotel stand is a classic example of an offside stand that LT were happy to use years ago, even though boarding and alighting from buses involved crossing the road. In its heyday of the 1960s/1970s the stand was extremely busy. On Monday to Friday even when the 11 still went to Shepherds Bush, half the service turned at Brook Green. During Monday to Friday offpeak Dalston 9s shortworked from Liverpool Street to Hammersmith but stand space in Riverside Garage was taken up by other routes and so these journeys headed to Brook Green. Hammersmith Brook Green Hotel was shown as the destination and passengers were carried, but little use was made of the facility. One day I arrived at Butterwick and when I got there an incident happened on a Dalston 9 when a passenger wanted to stay on till Brook Green but the conductor wanted to eject the passenger at Butterwick. Things obviously had got very heated because the conductor had removed his Gibson ticket machine and smacked it on the passenger's head causing a deep gash. Inspectors were frantically trying to sort things out. Also on the stand at Brook Green there was for a short while the 71 between its withdrawal from East Acton and replacement by a daily service on the 90C. Shortworking buses on the 72 regularly terminated as did the Hounslow service on the 73 (replaced by a revived 33 from the end of 1966). On Monday to Friday rush hours and Saturday even the 116 appeared. As a small boy it was a great place for bus spotting. In the evening and at weekends from 1965 the 255 also used the stand. The stand was so busy that a mobile canteen was provided there at the junction with Barb Mews and there were toilets for LT staff. An inspector was also on duty to regulate services. Monday to Saturdays were extremely busy at Brook Green, in contrast to Sunday when there would usually be just a solitary Twickenham RT on the 90C. At that time the whole of the 11 service went through to Shepherds Bush on Sundays. For a short while the 90C was joined by the 255. In November 1967 the 90C moved to the new stand at the Met. Station, leaving just RMLs on the 255. In February 1969 the Sunday service on the 255 was withdrawn and its replacement was the 19A from Battersea Garage. At that time there were no bus stand flags at the stand and as there were no other routes to take a cue from, Battersea 19As could often be seen parked on the nearside by the pavement, which was easier for passengers but definitely unusual at Brook Green. In the 1970s increasing car use caused a problem in the evenings. Nearby on Shepherds Bush Road there was the famous Hammersmith Palais(immortalised by the Clash), and an Irish Dance Hall called the Garryowen. Patrons of these two establishments would badly park their cars on either side of the narrow entrance to the stand and buses could often not gain access. Some drivers would try and become stuck. Other drivers would have to carry on along Shepherds Bush Road and then reverse onto the stand. During the evening the stand was still busy as in addition to daytime routes(whose frequency would be less in the evening), the stand had to find space for shortworking buses on the 27, 73 and 74B, as these routes could after about 9.pm no longer access their official stands within Riverside as the space was needed to park up buses from R. The problem caused quite a bit of unnecessary disruption to a wide range of services, so in the end buses on the 27, 73 and 74B were told to park up just before the bus stops on the north side of Hammersmith Bridge Road. I don't recall there being any bus stand markings on the road here and there was certainly no flag. Routes like the 11 and 33 were still however subject to disruption. It is good to see what was once such an important stand, still clinging on, even if it is just for rail replacement services. Some marvellous insights there, and in your earlier post on the Riverside garage. Many thanks for sharing them!  |
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Post by thelondonthing on Mar 25, 2020 6:36:28 GMT
Hampstead Heath is a weird terminus because when the 168 alights at Royal Free the roads are so tight and the bus stops mean no other car can go past ITS THAT TIGHT with an LT route. 11m electric buses, surprising. If an 168 is on the stand, the other LT the back will kinda be inbetween both roads as it turns left and then does a circle back to Rosslyn Hill. I can see the problem!  |
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Post by redexpress on Mar 25, 2020 12:17:38 GMT
Dose Muswell Hill count? When I have been there it looks a bit awkward when I see buses manoeuvring. Certainly requires drivers to be a bit forceful when pulling out into traffic on the roundabout, otherwise they could be sitting there all day! The stand itself can handle quite a few buses but its location is difficult, especially for drivers who want to go to a shop/cafe etc. Hard to see where else a stand could be situated though. |
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Post by ronnie on Mar 25, 2020 20:52:55 GMT
The 279 at Manor House is a bad one. That right turn can be dangerous especially if there’s a lot of traffic. They need to sort that out. Yes that one’s crazy. I had seen the 279 on stands quite a few times but it was only when I did it end to end that I realised the madness - it’s 40mph dual carriageway if I remember correctly! Think there are 3 lanes on both carriageways if I am not wrong |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 25, 2020 21:21:11 GMT
Strangely with the 279 that terminal has been used for a long time but always looks awkward to me. Even before 2004 half the 279 terminated there and the workings north of Waltham Cross started there aswell.
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