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Post by uakari on Dec 28, 2021 8:44:40 GMT
The problem with the concessionary fares is that the Freedom Pass's benefit are NOT nationwide, the London pass is a lot better value as everywhere else in the country, the Pensioner's pass is only valid after 09:00 / 09:30 and is only valid on local buses, it not valid on rail services. Also you only get it at pension age, so 60+ pass is a London only thing. So make the Freedom pass like everywhere else and not be valid before 09:30 and only on the buses. If the 60+ pass remains, only issue it to people who have retired, why should people who are earning £30,000+ a year get free travel to and from work?
With Free Child Fares, outside of London the only journeys that are free are where the nearest school is more than x miles away from where the person lives (note it is "the nearest school" not the one 10 miles away just because it's OFSTED results are better than the school that is next door to where the child lives). We have an obesity problem with the UK, why because people don't walk anymore, and in London they get free bus travel so they don't have to. So by removing the ZIT card this would do two things, improve the fitness of the darlings and reduce the number of them that use the bus just to go 3 or 4 stops.
The whole point of Ofsted ratings is to allow people to choose what the best school is for their child, if you are forcing a child to go to a poor school because their parents can't afford a bus fare it's a perfect example of how the poverty cycle works. You can remove Zip cards when you remove freedom passes, both groups do not work so both groups can be treated the same. Can't see why one group of vulnerable need to be looked down upon. We all had to pay child fares on buses, and we survived. At least 16-18 year olds could pay something.
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Post by TB123 on Jan 1, 2022 16:31:22 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source:
Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes.
Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn.
Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes.
Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn).
Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn.
Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes.
Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes).
Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound).
So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead!
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Post by TB123 on Jan 1, 2022 16:33:57 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Also notice peak hour journeys on 72 withdrawn. That's a very hefty cut. Can't imagine the revised PVR being more than about 8?
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Post by southlondon413 on Jan 1, 2022 16:36:41 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Also notice peak hour journeys on 72 withdrawn. That's a very hefty cut. Can't imagine the revised PVR being more than about 8? To think just a few years ago the 72s PVR went up to 28 on the full route.
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Post by WH241 on Jan 1, 2022 16:42:03 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! The 15 one has been mentioned before but LOTS so far only confirmed evening and Saturday reductions. Spare LTs don’t always stay with existing operators as we know….
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Post by TB123 on Jan 1, 2022 16:45:00 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! The 15 one has been mentioned before but LOTS so far only confirmed evening and Saturday reductions. Spare LTs don’t always stay with existing operators as we know…. From what I'm told, the 15 one covers all week - like some other routes have gone, it'll run 5bph at all times. And yes, good point the LTs could well end up with a different operator. But I'd expect to see at least 2 conversions as a result of these
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 1, 2022 16:51:44 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Done a some rough calculations:
15: PVR drops by -9 72: PVR drops by -7 73: PVR drops by -7 259: PVR drops by -2 390: PVR drops by -9 453: PVR drops by -5 C1: PVR drops by -2 ish W7: PVR drops by -6 ish
So that would be 30 LTs freed up. 176 would convert next I imagine with some of these moving to the 259?
I wonder whether we'll have the issue where we now have too many spare buses. I do wonder what this could mean for Sutton tenders.
I also wonder with the W7 reduction if the 10 reg VWs will be the ones to go and if they'll potentially replace anything else in the fleet.
This would mean a further reduction of around 47, meaning that about 50 PVR yet to cut.
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Post by TB123 on Jan 1, 2022 16:57:34 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Done a some rough calculations:
15: PVR drops by -9 72: PVR drops by -7 73: PVR drops by -7 259: PVR drops by -2 390: PVR drops by -9 453: PVR drops by -5 C1: PVR drops by -2 ish W7: PVR drops by -6 ish
So that would be 30 LTs freed up. 176 would convert next I imagine with some of these moving to the 259?
I wonder whether we'll have the issue where we now have too many spare buses. I do wonder what this could mean for Sutton tenders.
I also wonder with the W7 reduction if the 10 reg VWs will be the ones to go and if they'll potentially replace anything else in the fleet.
This would mean a further reduction of around 47, meaning that about 50 PVR yet to cut.
Expect the 453 to be closer to 7/8 buses cut than just 5. Note W7 remains every 4 mins southbound so likely only about 2 or 3 buses cut. Would expect it to kill off the 10 plates though, yes. I'd thought there was just about enough LTs freed up from existing Arriva/GAL cuts already to convert 176 and 259? But yes if not expect some will go there. Wonder if the 133 might go to LT operation.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 1, 2022 16:59:00 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Quite surprised to not see the 38 there, but have to say there's no overall surprises here. The 453 could be argued as the most controversial one as it's very well used South of the river, but seeing how lightly used it is in Central London these days I'm not surprised. I'm not sure what Metroline will end up doing with their spare LTs, can't think of any route there which might need a restock anytime soon. However the 186 and 297 are both up for tender. I know the Willesden area can be a bit tight at times though so not 100% on the 297. Go Ahead I'd imagine they'll finally finish off what's left of the 176 and probably start making a move on the 5. Alternatively they could also form an existing bid on the 78 as that route has already been cleared for LTs.
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Post by TB123 on Jan 1, 2022 16:59:44 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Done a some rough calculations:
15: PVR drops by -9 72: PVR drops by -7 73: PVR drops by -7 259: PVR drops by -2 390: PVR drops by -9 453: PVR drops by -5 C1: PVR drops by -2 ish W7: PVR drops by -6 ish
So that would be 30 LTs freed up. 176 would convert next I imagine with some of these moving to the 259?
I wonder whether we'll have the issue where we now have too many spare buses. I do wonder what this could mean for Sutton tenders.
I also wonder with the W7 reduction if the 10 reg VWs will be the ones to go and if they'll potentially replace anything else in the fleet.
This would mean a further reduction of around 47, meaning that about 50 PVR yet to cut.
Also, I know the original number floated about was a cut of 300 PVR but I fully expect the number to be much higher than that. By 2024, I'd expect that the PVR will be 700-1k lower than pre-Covid
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 1, 2022 17:01:21 GMT
Done a some rough calculations:
15: PVR drops by -9 72: PVR drops by -7 73: PVR drops by -7 259: PVR drops by -2 390: PVR drops by -9 453: PVR drops by -5 C1: PVR drops by -2 ish W7: PVR drops by -6 ish
So that would be 30 LTs freed up. 176 would convert next I imagine with some of these moving to the 259?
I wonder whether we'll have the issue where we now have too many spare buses. I do wonder what this could mean for Sutton tenders.
I also wonder with the W7 reduction if the 10 reg VWs will be the ones to go and if they'll potentially replace anything else in the fleet.
This would mean a further reduction of around 47, meaning that about 50 PVR yet to cut.
Also, I know the original number floated about was a cut of 300 PVR but I fully expect the number to be much higher than that. By 2024, I'd expect that the PVR will be 700-1k lower than pre-Covid Why would it be that high?
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 1, 2022 17:04:37 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Quite surprised to not see the 38 there, but have to say there's no overall surprises here. The 453 could be argued as the most controversial one as it's very well used South of the river, but seeing how lightly used it is in Central London these days I'm not surprised. I'm not sure what Metroline will end up doing with their spare LTs, can't think of any route there which might need a restock anytime soon. However the 186 and 297 are both up for tender. I know the Willesden area can be a bit tight at times though so not 100% on the 297. Go Ahead I'd imagine they'll finally finish off what's left of the 176 and probably start making a move on the 5. Alternatively they could also form an existing bid on the 78 as that route has already been cleared for LTs. Perhaps the 32 could begin conversion with TEHs moving to the 240?
In fact that would probably be ideal because the exact PVR of the 240 is 9, so 9 LTs to EW, 9 TEHs to the 240.
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Post by TB123 on Jan 1, 2022 17:12:42 GMT
A few upcoming changes I've been made aware of from a reliable source: Route 15 (Trafalgar Square to Blackwall Station) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 12 minutes. Route 72 (East Acton to Hammersmith Bridge) reduced in frequency from every 8 minutes to every 10 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 73 (Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington) reduced in frequency from every 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route 259 (Kings Cross to Edmonton Green) reduced in frequency from every 8-9 minutes to every 10 minutes (Sundays and evenings from 10 to 12 minutes with peak hour journeys withdrawn). Route 390 (Victoria Station to Archway Station) reduced in frequency from every 6 minutes to every 8-9 minutes with additional peak hour journeys withdrawn. Route 453 (Marylebone Station to Deptford Bridge Station) peak frequency reduced from every 4-5 minutes to every 6 minutes. Route C1 (White City to Victoria Station) reduced in frequency from every 13 minutes to every 15 minutes (evenings and Sundays from 13 to 20 minutes). Route W7 (Finsbury Park Station to Muswell Hill Broadway) peak frequency reduced from every 3-4 minutes to every 6 minutes (to from 3-4 to 4 minutes morning southbound). So place your bets on what route is going LT next at Metroline or Go-Ahead! Quite surprised to not see the 38 there, but have to say there's no overall surprises here. The 453 could be argued as the most controversial one as it's very well used South of the river, but seeing how lightly used it is in Central London these days I'm not surprised. I'm not sure what Metroline will end up doing with their spare LTs, can't think of any route there which might need a restock anytime soon. However the 186 and 297 are both up for tender. I know the Willesden area can be a bit tight at times though so not 100% on the 297. Go Ahead I'd imagine they'll finally finish off what's left of the 176 and probably start making a move on the 5. Alternatively they could also form an existing bid on the 78 as that route has already been cleared for LTs. The 38 has already had 2 cuts in the space of 12 months. I'd be surprised if it touched again in the next 2 years or so, but could be wrong. I'm expecting the 3, 6, 8, 14, 23, 26, 35, 36, 44, 52, 63, 94, 98, 134, 137, 170, 205, 214, 345, 414 to all be cut soon - mostly back to 6bph but in case of 8, 26, 36, 94, 137 to either 7 or 7.5 bph and with removal of all associated peak trips/differential frequencies.
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Post by TB123 on Jan 1, 2022 17:14:47 GMT
Also, I know the original number floated about was a cut of 300 PVR but I fully expect the number to be much higher than that. By 2024, I'd expect that the PVR will be 700-1k lower than pre-Covid Why would it be that high? Because of the sheer reality facing TfL. The talk before was 300 PVR cut by 2024. That was at the start of the year. It's virtually achieved 2 years earlier. Even a "good" funding deal for TfL will likely bring more bus service reductions.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 1, 2022 17:15:52 GMT
Quite surprised to not see the 38 there, but have to say there's no overall surprises here. The 453 could be argued as the most controversial one as it's very well used South of the river, but seeing how lightly used it is in Central London these days I'm not surprised. I'm not sure what Metroline will end up doing with their spare LTs, can't think of any route there which might need a restock anytime soon. However the 186 and 297 are both up for tender. I know the Willesden area can be a bit tight at times though so not 100% on the 297. Go Ahead I'd imagine they'll finally finish off what's left of the 176 and probably start making a move on the 5. Alternatively they could also form an existing bid on the 78 as that route has already been cleared for LTs. The 38 has already had 2 cuts in the space of 12 months. I'd be surprised if it touched again in the next 2 years or so, but could be wrong. I'm expecting the 3, 6, 8, 14, 23, 26, 35, 36, 44, 52, 63, 94, 98, 134, 137, 170, 205, 214, 345, 414 to all be cut soon - mostly back to 6bph but in case of 8, 26, 36, 94, 137 to either 7 or 7.5 bph and with removal of all associated peak trips/differential frequencies. The 52 being cut even further? Jesus christ. I remember when this route was running with 11+ million passengers, how times have changed (though mostly down to the 452).
If the 214 were to be cut, that would be a travesty. That service gets seriously busy in the peaks, if it had to be cut I wonder whether it could perhaps be negotiated with residents to be decked, because seriously 6bph on the 214 I doubt could suffice the leve, of service needed. Same with the 170 but then again that has no way of getting deckers.
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