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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Dec 18, 2021 17:39:51 GMT
The government should fund the loss of fare income due Covid-19, no more, no less. That would leave TfL in much the same situation as if Covid had not happened. One problem here will be how to fund the missing income from those whose lives have changed or are still too scared to use public transport. Certainly there need to be much better marketing of the bus and tube to get passengers back than what there has been to date. If TfL have to raise funds my suggestions are :- - Sorry, but fares will need to increase by say 1% above inflation for the next few years.
- Increase sponsorship, stations, tube lines, bus routes! I can't say I am happy about this, but given the situation, needs must
- Council tax rise. At least those who are less well off will be protected by means of Council tax benefit.
- Tax of say £2 on private hire journeys. If one can afford a private hire vehicle then a small tax should not be too much, particularly given how much congestion these vehicles appear to create. Arguably private hire, scooters, bikes are taking more passengers away from buses and tubes, with subsequent loss of fare income, than from private cars.
- Annual tax of say £100 on all private cars used in London. I don't the country is ready for road charging, so this will do for now.
- Tax on e-scooters and electric bikes use.
TfL costs also need to be reduced with the cost benefit of all schemes properly looked at. Bus priority measures are needed to speed up buses, we need to get bus speeds and journeys back to where they used to be. This will mean reduced costs for TfL as fewer buses will be needed to provide the same service as journey times will be reduced. This will also encourage more passengers so increasing income. Speed limits also need to be reviewed if these are slowing buses and not demonstrably improving safety such as reducing road deaths.
What I would not do is change concessionary fares. The Freedom pass is nationwide and so should apply to London. The 60+ pass should be left alone for two reasons, some of those with passes would go back to their cars as that has to be avoided and secondly this group have been promised their pass and so their passes should not be revoked. I can see an argument to close the door and stop new such passes being issued as part of a Mayoral manifesto, but not removing existing passes. Free child travel should remain. Most child travel is to / from school so would need to be provided anyway. The real impact would be on family leisure travel. Paying for a family trip out for a family of two adults and three children would become much less affordable, and if child fares were charged, the trip may not take place at all depriving TfL of all the income from the trip, never mind increasing it.
I shall now put on my suit of armour and duck whilst everyone disagrees!!!!
The problem with the concessionary fares is that the Freedom Pass's benefit are NOT nationwide, the London pass is a lot better value as everywhere else in the country, the Pensioner's pass is only valid after 09:00 / 09:30 and is only valid on local buses, it not valid on rail services. Also you only get it at pension age, so 60+ pass is a London only thing. So make the Freedom pass like everywhere else and not be valid before 09:30 and only on the buses. If the 60+ pass remains, only issue it to people who have retired, why should people who are earning £30,000+ a year get free travel to and from work?
With Free Child Fares, outside of London the only journeys that are free are where the nearest school is more than x miles away from where the person lives (note it is "the nearest school" not the one 10 miles away just because it's OFSTED results are better than the school that is next door to where the child lives). We have an obesity problem with the UK, why because people don't walk anymore, and in London they get free bus travel so they don't have to. So by removing the ZIT card this would do two things, improve the fitness of the darlings and reduce the number of them that use the bus just to go 3 or 4 stops.
I agree regarding the Freedom Pass, we really don't want to encourage the 60+ to travel during peak hours. But don't revoke the tube element, there are some sections served by tube but not by bus (the outer extremities of the Metropolitan/Central lines and Barons Court to name a few). Regarding the ZIP card, maybe there could be a 40p bus/tram fare per Hopper journey for 11-15 (capped at £1.20 or £2.50 including tubes). Free travel to and from school could be by arrangement with the school/local authority. This could be based on distance (e.g. if over 1/2 mile) or personal circumstance (e.g. if the student receives free school meals/has a disability).
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Dec 18, 2021 18:05:57 GMT
The government should fund the loss of fare income due Covid-19, no more, no less. That would leave TfL in much the same situation as if Covid had not happened. One problem here will be how to fund the missing income from those whose lives have changed or are still too scared to use public transport. Certainly there need to be much better marketing of the bus and tube to get passengers back than what there has been to date. If TfL have to raise funds my suggestions are :- - Sorry, but fares will need to increase by say 1% above inflation for the next few years.
- Increase sponsorship, stations, tube lines, bus routes! I can't say I am happy about this, but given the situation, needs must
- Council tax rise. At least those who are less well off will be protected by means of Council tax benefit.
- Tax of say £2 on private hire journeys. If one can afford a private hire vehicle then a small tax should not be too much, particularly given how much congestion these vehicles appear to create. Arguably private hire, scooters, bikes are taking more passengers away from buses and tubes, with subsequent loss of fare income, than from private cars.
- Annual tax of say £100 on all private cars used in London. I don't the country is ready for road charging, so this will do for now.
- Tax on e-scooters and electric bikes use.
TfL costs also need to be reduced with the cost benefit of all schemes properly looked at. Bus priority measures are needed to speed up buses, we need to get bus speeds and journeys back to where they used to be. This will mean reduced costs for TfL as fewer buses will be needed to provide the same service as journey times will be reduced. This will also encourage more passengers so increasing income. Speed limits also need to be reviewed if these are slowing buses and not demonstrably improving safety such as reducing road deaths.
What I would not do is change concessionary fares. The Freedom pass is nationwide and so should apply to London. The 60+ pass should be left alone for two reasons, some of those with passes would go back to their cars as that has to be avoided and secondly this group have been promised their pass and so their passes should not be revoked. I can see an argument to close the door and stop new such passes being issued as part of a Mayoral manifesto, but not removing existing passes. Free child travel should remain. Most child travel is to / from school so would need to be provided anyway. The real impact would be on family leisure travel. Paying for a family trip out for a family of two adults and three children would become much less affordable, and if child fares were charged, the trip may not take place at all depriving TfL of all the income from the trip, never mind increasing it.
I shall now put on my suit of armour and duck whilst everyone disagrees!!!!
The problem with the concessionary fares is that the Freedom Pass's benefit are NOT nationwide, the London pass is a lot better value as everywhere else in the country, the Pensioner's pass is only valid after 09:00 / 09:30 and is only valid on local buses, it not valid on rail services. Also you only get it at pension age, so 60+ pass is a London only thing. So make the Freedom pass like everywhere else and not be valid before 09:30 and only on the buses. If the 60+ pass remains, only issue it to people who have retired, why should people who are earning £30,000+ a year get free travel to and from work?
With Free Child Fares, outside of London the only journeys that are free are where the nearest school is more than x miles away from where the person lives (note it is "the nearest school" not the one 10 miles away just because it's OFSTED results are better than the school that is next door to where the child lives). We have an obesity problem with the UK, why because people don't walk anymore, and in London they get free bus travel so they don't have to. So by removing the ZIT card this would do two things, improve the fitness of the darlings and reduce the number of them that use the bus just to go 3 or 4 stops.
The whole point of Ofsted ratings is to allow people to choose what the best school is for their child, if you are forcing a child to go to a poor school because their parents can't afford a bus fare it's a perfect example of how the poverty cycle works. You can remove Zip cards when you remove freedom passes, both groups do not work so both groups can be treated the same. Can't see why one group of vulnerable need to be looked down upon.
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Post by southlondon413 on Dec 18, 2021 18:45:15 GMT
The problem with the concessionary fares is that the Freedom Pass's benefit are NOT nationwide, the London pass is a lot better value as everywhere else in the country, the Pensioner's pass is only valid after 09:00 / 09:30 and is only valid on local buses, it not valid on rail services. Also you only get it at pension age, so 60+ pass is a London only thing. So make the Freedom pass like everywhere else and not be valid before 09:30 and only on the buses. If the 60+ pass remains, only issue it to people who have retired, why should people who are earning £30,000+ a year get free travel to and from work?
With Free Child Fares, outside of London the only journeys that are free are where the nearest school is more than x miles away from where the person lives (note it is "the nearest school" not the one 10 miles away just because it's OFSTED results are better than the school that is next door to where the child lives). We have an obesity problem with the UK, why because people don't walk anymore, and in London they get free bus travel so they don't have to. So by removing the ZIT card this would do two things, improve the fitness of the darlings and reduce the number of them that use the bus just to go 3 or 4 stops.
The whole point of Ofsted ratings is to allow people to choose what the best school is for their child, if you are forcing a child to go to a poor school because their parents can't afford a bus fare it's a perfect example of how the poverty cycle works. You can remove Zip cards when you remove freedom passes, both groups do not work so both groups can be treated the same. Can't see why one group of vulnerable need to be looked down upon. The counter argument to that is simple. If you choose to send your child to a school miles away then you should have the capability to afford to send them there. If the parents chose to make their first preference a school on the other side of the borough or a long bus ride away then it is down to them to have the funds available to pay for transport. It shouldn’t fall to taxpayers to fund their choices. Having said that if it isn’t a choice and that’s the only school place offered than that’s slightly different.
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Post by southlondonbus on Dec 18, 2021 19:11:21 GMT
The problem with the concessionary fares is that the Freedom Pass's benefit are NOT nationwide, the London pass is a lot better value as everywhere else in the country, the Pensioner's pass is only valid after 09:00 / 09:30 and is only valid on local buses, it not valid on rail services. Also you only get it at pension age, so 60+ pass is a London only thing. So make the Freedom pass like everywhere else and not be valid before 09:30 and only on the buses. If the 60+ pass remains, only issue it to people who have retired, why should people who are earning £30,000+ a year get free travel to and from work?
With Free Child Fares, outside of London the only journeys that are free are where the nearest school is more than x miles away from where the person lives (note it is "the nearest school" not the one 10 miles away just because it's OFSTED results are better than the school that is next door to where the child lives). We have an obesity problem with the UK, why because people don't walk anymore, and in London they get free bus travel so they don't have to. So by removing the ZIT card this would do two things, improve the fitness of the darlings and reduce the number of them that use the bus just to go 3 or 4 stops.
The whole point of Ofsted ratings is to allow people to choose what the best school is for their child, if you are forcing a child to go to a poor school because their parents can't afford a bus fare it's a perfect example of how the poverty cycle works. You can remove Zip cards when you remove freedom passes, both groups do not work so both groups can be treated the same. Can't see why one group of vulnerable need to be looked down upon. No one wants the freedom pass completely removed it just should reflect the times we live in where being retired doesn't mean a low income, many 60 years olds are still in full or atleast part time work and for me a compromise would be either from next moved to aged 66 or now valid on tube/train now. I'm sorry but I do feel very strongly about having to pay higher fares when millionaire celebrities in London can travel on the tube for free the day they hit 60.
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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Dec 18, 2021 19:20:13 GMT
Another cost saving measure I thought of:
Could fares on cross-border bus routes be increased to £2?
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Post by TB123 on Dec 18, 2021 19:25:38 GMT
Another cost saving measure I thought of: Could fares on cross-border bus routes be increased to £2? No. Why would they? It wouldn't make any difference. TfL can't subsidise the residents of other authorities anyway, so cross-border services are only provided to the nearest traffic objective(s) of Greater London taxpayer or if subsidised by the relevant authority (eg Surrey County Council) - also would cause confusion. You'd either need fare stages which would ruin the whole simplicity of a flat fare. Or would the entire route be higher fare? In which case you'd have silly things like a 235 journey from Hounslow to Brentford costing 45p more than a E8. A no-go
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Post by TB123 on Dec 18, 2021 19:27:11 GMT
Another cost saving measure I thought of: Could fares on cross-border bus routes be increased to £2? No. Why would they? It wouldn't make any difference. TfL can't subsidise the residents of other authorities anyway, so cross-border services are only provided to the nearest traffic objective(s) of Greater London taxpayer or if subsidised by the relevant authority (eg Surrey County Council) - also would cause confusion. You'd either need fare stages which would ruin the whole simplicity of a flat fare. Or would the entire route be higher fare? In which case you'd have silly things like a 235 journey from Hounslow to Brentford costing 45p more than a E8. A no-go The only sort of cost saving I could imagine on cross-border routes is if they were a bit tighter on traffic objectives past the London border. I'm not sure whether the 290 is SCC contributed, I don't think it is, but you could perhaps see that only going to Sunbury not Staines. But even then, there would be an argument that Staines is the clear traffic objective for London taxpayers after the border.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Dec 19, 2021 2:31:53 GMT
The whole point of Ofsted ratings is to allow people to choose what the best school is for their child, if you are forcing a child to go to a poor school because their parents can't afford a bus fare it's a perfect example of how the poverty cycle works. You can remove Zip cards when you remove freedom passes, both groups do not work so both groups can be treated the same. Can't see why one group of vulnerable need to be looked down upon. No one wants the freedom pass completely removed it just should reflect the times we live in where being retired doesn't mean a low income, many 60 years olds are still in full or atleast part time work and for me a compromise would be either from next moved to aged 66 or now valid on tube/train now. I'm sorry but I do feel very strongly about having to pay higher fares when millionaire celebrities in London can travel on the tube for free the day they hit 60. bahaha, sound like a champagne socialist. I mean seriously, what millionaire celeb over 60 is even bothering to use the tube to travel free all day. Care to back up this statement???
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Post by TB123 on Dec 23, 2021 15:54:14 GMT
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Post by danorak on Dec 23, 2021 16:54:49 GMT
The whole point of Ofsted ratings is to allow people to choose what the best school is for their child, if you are forcing a child to go to a poor school because their parents can't afford a bus fare it's a perfect example of how the poverty cycle works. You can remove Zip cards when you remove freedom passes, both groups do not work so both groups can be treated the same. Can't see why one group of vulnerable need to be looked down upon. No one wants the freedom pass completely removed it just should reflect the times we live in where being retired doesn't mean a low income, many 60 years olds are still in full or atleast part time work and for me a compromise would be either from next moved to aged 66 or now valid on tube/train now. I'm sorry but I do feel very strongly about having to pay higher fares when millionaire celebrities in London can travel on the tube for free the day they hit 60. Perhaps a self-interested way of thinking about this but we are all getting older. None of us are getting younger. Don't be too quick to jettison things you haven't qualified for yet And there is a risk of creating a generation that missed out on things for younger people and then don't get things for older people either!
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Post by wirewiper on Dec 23, 2021 17:07:26 GMT
No one wants the freedom pass completely removed it just should reflect the times we live in where being retired doesn't mean a low income, many 60 years olds are still in full or atleast part time work and for me a compromise would be either from next moved to aged 66 or now valid on tube/train now. I'm sorry but I do feel very strongly about having to pay higher fares when millionaire celebrities in London can travel on the tube for free the day they hit 60. Perhaps a self-interested way of thinking about this but we are all getting older. None of us are getting younger. Don't be too quick to jettison things you haven't qualified for yet And there is a risk of creating a generation that missed out on things for younger people and then don't get things for older people either! There is also the argument that by giving everyone over 60 free travel, it takes some cars off the road. And millionaire celebrities do pay relatively more tax (whether what they pay is "fair" is not a discussion for this thread).
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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Dec 23, 2021 17:19:42 GMT
Perhaps a self-interested way of thinking about this but we are all getting older. None of us are getting younger. Don't be too quick to jettison things you haven't qualified for yet And there is a risk of creating a generation that missed out on things for younger people and then don't get things for older people either! There is also the argument that by giving everyone over 60 free travel, it takes some cars off the road. And millionaire celebrities do pay relatively more tax (whether what they pay is "fair" is not a discussion for this thread). Also often elderly people are more prone to car accidents. Once I was queuing for a supermarket (when we queued outside) and an old man forgot to put the brake on, and his car rammed into the queue. Luckily a nurse was in there doing the weekly shop to help! It means fewer roads are blocked because of accidents.
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Post by WH241 on Dec 23, 2021 17:43:04 GMT
There is also the argument that by giving everyone over 60 free travel, it takes some cars off the road. And millionaire celebrities do pay relatively more tax (whether what they pay is "fair" is not a discussion for this thread). Also often elderly people are more prone to car accidents. Once I was queuing for a supermarket (when we queued outside) and an old man forgot to put the brake on, and his car rammed into the queue. Luckily a nurse was in there doing the weekly shop to help! It means fewer roads are blocked because of accidents. I don't buy that argument - the standard of driving of all ages is awful and getting worse! To be honest something neds to be done especially with the cars who think the red signal means just 2 more cars.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Dec 23, 2021 17:47:44 GMT
Also often elderly people are more prone to car accidents. Once I was queuing for a supermarket (when we queued outside) and an old man forgot to put the brake on, and his car rammed into the queue. Luckily a nurse was in there doing the weekly shop to help! It means fewer roads are blocked because of accidents. I don't buy that argument - the standard of driving of all ages is awful and getting worse! To be honest something neds to be done especially with the cars who think the red signal means just 2 more cars.
Agreed and I do think some people are too old to drive, Sunday drivers are usually of a certain age and there are people who I know personally and mutually who can barely see over the wheel. If I'm honest I do think there should be an age limit for driving and that be a maximum.
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Post by WH241 on Dec 23, 2021 17:54:17 GMT
I don't buy that argument - the standard of driving of all ages is awful and getting worse! To be honest something neds to be done especially with the cars who think the red signal means just 2 more cars.
Agreed and I do think some people are too old to drive, Sunday drivers are usually of a certain age and there are people who I know personally and mutually who can barely see over the wheel. If I'm honest I do think there should be an age limit for driving and that be a maximum. They would have to keep increasing the maximum age as people work longer, much heather and living longer than previously so would be unfair to deprive perfectly able people the right to drive.
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