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Post by DT 11 on Jul 16, 2021 16:16:44 GMT
Once again, I am quite irritated by the tone of this consultation. "Following consultation and requests in 2016 we extended the route from Orpington to Chelsfield Village, increased the frequency and added a Sunday service on 1 April 2017. Unfortunately this has led to delays and unreliable journey times. So we propose to keep the extension but miss out the ‘loop’ that is causing delays." From that, you'd read it as being a bus service that's only been in place for a couple of years, but the Maypole/BoPeep section has had a service for as long as I can remember, back to the days of the 477 and 493. And they didn't have to do the loop either, somehow managing to traverse it in both directions. The equality impact assessment - what there is of it - is extraordinary. It acknowledges that there are passengers who will have to walk up to a kilometre along a road with no footway. People in glass houses etc but hats off to TfL for spelling 'Belief' wrong on the template. If this change is progressed in its current form then it will prove EqIAs are not worth the paper they are barely written on. To me, I'm wondering why none of this cropped up when the Orpington changes were consulted on a few years ago - surely, all that information that TfL collects would of outlined any issues such as this moving forward unless something fundamentally different has cropped over the past couple of years since? Did the R3 (the previous route to run around the Chelsfield Loop) have these issues? Chislehurst can be quite busy at times too. Seems they are just doing the simple solution of cutting it rather than run a extra bus on the Route. Every Journey Matters... except Chelsfield Village... |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 16, 2021 16:17:23 GMT
I can see a bit of sense in this. 40 passengers isn't enough to justify a service round there in my opinion and I'd imagine those roads get pretty clogged up if anything happens on the M25 that causes a mass emigration of cars away from it. Same thing happens with the 298/313 I do think the service around the loop at present is far more frequent than can really be justified. Something akin to the current R5/10 or R8 would seem more appropriate. If I was TFL I would have maybe looked at when the service was most popular during certain times of the day and ran journeys down there at appropriate times. Though standardisation would moot that completely.
Example, if the most popular journeys were at say 0830, 1130, 1430 and 1800 those buses could run down there appropriately.
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Post by DT 11 on Jul 16, 2021 16:20:16 GMT
I can see a bit of sense in this. 40 passengers isn't enough to justify a service round there in my opinion and I'd imagine those roads get pretty clogged up if anything happens on the M25 that causes a mass emigration of cars away from it. Same thing happens with the 298/313 I do think the service around the loop at present is far more frequent than can really be justified. Something akin to the current R5/10 or R8 would seem more appropriate. Route R2 would have probably been the better option to divert to Chelsfield Village as it has little delays. |
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Post by danorak on Jul 16, 2021 16:23:15 GMT
I do think the service around the loop at present is far more frequent than can really be justified. Something akin to the current R5/10 or R8 would seem more appropriate. Route R2 would have probably been the better option to divert to Chelsfield Village as it has little delays. And would have maintained the link to the PRU too. |
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Post by DT 11 on Jul 16, 2021 16:36:58 GMT
Route R2 would have probably been the better option to divert to Chelsfield Village as it has little delays. And would have maintained the link to the PRU too. Good point however I would be surprised if anyone took Route R3 from Chelsfield Village to Princess Royal Hospital end to end via all the back streets faster to use 61 353 or R2 then R3 from Orpington High Street. Route R2 would provide a very direct link if it went to Chelsfield Village. Route R7 would probably be more manageable if it went back to the old terminus Orpington, Walnuts Centre. |
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Post by uakari on Jul 16, 2021 16:52:31 GMT
I really think this mayor doesn't care about people who rely on buses in outer London. Surely some frequency reductions on some inner London routes would be preferable to leaving people with no bus at all within walking distance where there was one before. Very regressive especially for a Labour administration to be overseeing.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 16, 2021 16:59:14 GMT
I really think this mayor doesn't care about people who rely on buses in outer London. Surely some frequency reductions on some inner London routes would be preferable to leaving people with no bus at all within walking distance where there was one before. Very regressive especially for a Labour administration to be overseeing. Labour administration thou in the safest Conservative seat in London |
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Post by lundnah on Jul 16, 2021 17:12:38 GMT
Once again, I am quite irritated by the tone of this consultation. "Following consultation and requests in 2016 we extended the route from Orpington to Chelsfield Village, increased the frequency and added a Sunday service on 1 April 2017. Unfortunately this has led to delays and unreliable journey times. So we propose to keep the extension but miss out the ‘loop’ that is causing delays." From that, you'd read it as being a bus service that's only been in place for a couple of years, but the Maypole/BoPeep section has had a service for as long as I can remember, back to the days of the 477 and 493. And they didn't have to do the loop either, somehow managing to traverse it in both directions. The equality impact assessment - what there is of it - is extraordinary. It acknowledges that there are passengers who will have to walk up to a kilometre along a road with no footway. People in glass houses etc but hats off to TfL for spelling 'Belief' wrong on the template. If this change is progressed in its current form then it will prove EqIAs are not worth the paper they are barely written on. Having walked the narrow hedge-fronted lanes between Chelsfield, Maypole and Bopeep I didn't much enjoy the experience in daylight, and after dark it'd be dicing with death.
The equality impact assessment is embarrassingly blinkered and extraordinarily inadequate, suggesting whoever wrote it hasn't even travelled the route via Google Street View, let alone on a bus in real life.
For these very-outer London residents it's a shame the only alternatives have to be "a bus every 30 minutes" or "nothing, forever".
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Post by uakari on Jul 16, 2021 17:19:00 GMT
I really think this mayor doesn't care about people who rely on buses in outer London. Surely some frequency reductions on some inner London routes would be preferable to leaving people with no bus at all within walking distance where there was one before. Very regressive especially for a Labour administration to be overseeing. Labour administration thou in the safest Conservative seat in London Even so, he's supposed to be the mayor for the whole of London, not just the areas that vote for him. I'm saying that Labour should be supporting bus users and usage generally, not removing access or punishing areas where he isn't as popular. But I don't think they have those values any more - it's just shout staying in power. This seems to have been the case with the 384 cuts to the Barnet roads as well, although that also involved areas that are not exactly dripping with money (like the Bevan Estate). I admit looking at this area it is more rural, and a bus every 30 minutes might be quite generous given there much denser areas on the edge like Hadley Wood that only get a bus five times a day. But still there are houses round Jubilee Road and Hollybush Lane so they deserve something, especially as these roads are don't even have pavements to walk to where the bus is planned to serve (I would be wary of walking along those enclosed narrow twisty parts). Maybe reducing the frequency of the 521 from every 2 minutes to every 3 minutes could pay for an extra bus on this route! |
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Post by greenboy on Jul 16, 2021 17:46:11 GMT
I really think this mayor doesn't care about people who rely on buses in outer London. Surely some frequency reductions on some inner London routes would be preferable to leaving people with no bus at all within walking distance where there was one before. Very regressive especially for a Labour administration to be overseeing. I totally agree and I said this when the R8 was reduced, if services need to be cut surely it should be done where there are alternatives. As someone mentioned previously why on earth is the 521 still running every 2-3 minutes and there are plenty of other examples such as the 414. And surely it should be possible to interwork the R5/8/10 and at least the Chelsfield section of the R7 to ensure they get a regular clockface service with the routes tendered as one? |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 16, 2021 18:08:15 GMT
Labour administration thou in the safest Conservative seat in London Even so, he's supposed to be the mayor for the whole of London, not just the areas that vote for him. I'm saying that Labour should be supporting bus users and usage generally, not removing access or punishing areas where he isn't as popular. But I don't think they have those values any more - it's just shout staying in power. This seems to have been the case with the 384 cuts to the Barnet roads as well, although that also involved areas that are not exactly dripping with money (like the Bevan Estate). I admit looking at this area it is more rural, and a bus every 30 minutes might be quite generous given there much denser areas on the edge like Hadley Wood that only get a bus five times a day. But still there are houses round Jubilee Road and Hollybush Lane so they deserve something, especially as these roads are don't even have pavements to walk to where the bus is planned to serve (I would be wary of walking along those enclosed narrow twisty parts). Maybe reducing the frequency of the 521 from every 2 minutes to every 3 minutes could pay for an extra bus on this route! That would actually reduce the route by 10 buses |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 16, 2021 18:16:08 GMT
I really think this mayor doesn't care about people who rely on buses in outer London. Surely some frequency reductions on some inner London routes would be preferable to leaving people with no bus at all within walking distance where there was one before. Very regressive especially for a Labour administration to be overseeing. I totally agree and I said this when the R8 was reduced, if services need to be cut surely it should be done where there are alternatives. As someone mentioned previously why on earth is the 521 still running every 2-3 minutes and there are plenty of other examples such as the 414. And surely it should be possible to interwork the R5/8/10 and at least the Chelsfield section of the R7 to ensure they get a regular clockface service with the routes tendered as one? That seems like a sensible idea. Would hopefully allow the timetable of one of the R5/8/10 to match demand round the Chelsfield section better.
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Post by rugbyref on Jul 16, 2021 18:31:15 GMT
The problems at the Chelsfield end of the route have been caused by the lengthy roadwoks and traffic lights on Court Road. The lights have now gone, so the service should improve.
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Post by rugbyref on Jul 16, 2021 18:46:08 GMT
Route R2 would have probably been the better option to divert to Chelsfield Village as it has little delays. And would have maintained the link to the PRU too. Better to save any changes until the Broke Hill site development is resolved. If that goes ahead, surely the R5 and R10 routes and frequencies will need massive increases. Perhaps even further extend the R7 route and PVR? |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 16, 2021 19:08:19 GMT
Labour administration thou in the safest Conservative seat in London Even so, he's supposed to be the mayor for the whole of London, not just the areas that vote for him. I'm saying that Labour should be supporting bus users and usage generally, not removing access or punishing areas where he isn't as popular. But I don't think they have those values any more - it's just shout staying in power. This seems to have been the case with the 384 cuts to the Barnet roads as well, although that also involved areas that are not exactly dripping with money (like the Bevan Estate). I admit looking at this area it is more rural, and a bus every 30 minutes might be quite generous given there much denser areas on the edge like Hadley Wood that only get a bus five times a day. But still there are houses round Jubilee Road and Hollybush Lane so they deserve something, especially as these roads are don't even have pavements to walk to where the bus is planned to serve (I would be wary of walking along those enclosed narrow twisty parts). Maybe reducing the frequency of the 521 from every 2 minutes to every 3 minutes could pay for an extra bus on this route! But he isn't even for the areas who vote for him. I live in Lambeth which always votes Labour and voted in favour of Khan yet my area has seen nothing but cuts with the only frequency increase happening because said route runs into Croydon which was part of the PVR increases. He has no clue as to what he is doing regardless of what area voted for him or not. The 521 is being dramatically reduced later this summer with it's PVR & frequency cut |
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