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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Dec 7, 2021 13:41:44 GMT
According to the consultation the N1 will be retained in its current form. If you are going to reroute the N1 (or new N188) via Jamaica Road then the new 1 should be 24 hour as you say in order to serve that part of Bermondsey otherwise unserved by night buses. However, trouble with that is that most of the northern section of the new 1 is duplicated by the N5. Also worth noting by combining the N1 and 188 you'd be losing the Greenwich-North Greenwich connection as I assume its more important to continue running to Thamesmead, but this could be made up by making the 129 24 hour. Long story short, I think its best to keep the 188 and N1 as they are. Routes such as the N68 and N171 run to TCR without their day routes and that seems to work so I don't think it would cause much confusion even if the 188 ran to TCR. And what's the problem with that? The N5 got savagely cut to 2bph post Night Tube and going by consultations dolled out by TfL, they cut the N5 with PVR projections based on near 100% capacity. I'd like to see the 1 have some night variant north of Holborn. There is demand at night for a direct bus from Elephant & Castle up to Camden; late and early buses on the 168 are generally busy which suggests there is demand at night. The Night Tube only runs two nights a week whereas the night bus network runs 363 nights a year. It's an accessory to late night travel, not an alternative. As busocculation has previously said, easiest way to achieve a night time link over the newly formed 1 is to re-number the N1 into N180 without any changes to the route structure and make the 1 24 hours. I think your key point is your last sentence of the second paragraph. I don't think TfL view night buses as an accessory but only as an alternative. The weekend night routes were the closest we got to night buses being a form of supplementary service but I don't think they're ever coming back.
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Post by YX10FFN on Dec 7, 2021 16:31:57 GMT
According to the consultation the N1 will be retained in its current form. If you are going to reroute the N1 (or new N188) via Jamaica Road then the new 1 should be 24 hour as you say in order to serve that part of Bermondsey otherwise unserved by night buses. However, trouble with that is that most of the northern section of the new 1 is duplicated by the N5. Also worth noting by combining the N1 and 188 you'd be losing the Greenwich-North Greenwich connection as I assume its more important to continue running to Thamesmead, but this could be made up by making the 129 24 hour. Long story short, I think its best to keep the 188 and N1 as they are. Routes such as the N68 and N171 run to TCR without their day routes and that seems to work so I don't think it would cause much confusion even if the 188 ran to TCR. And what's the problem with that? The N5 got savagely cut to 2bph post Night Tube and going by consultations dolled out by TfL, they cut the N5 with PVR projections based on near 100% capacity. I'd like to see the 1 have some night variant north of Holborn. There is demand at night for a direct bus from Elephant & Castle up to Camden; late and early buses on the 168 are generally busy which suggests there is demand at night. The Night Tube only runs two nights a week whereas the night bus network runs 363 nights a year. It's an accessory to late night travel, not an alternative. As busocculation has previously said, easiest way to achieve a night time link over the newly formed 1 is to re-number the N1 into N180 without any changes to the route structure and make the 1 24 hours. I don't think its a problem per se, just providing a justification for why TFL may think its unviable. You're right in that it would introduce a new cross-Central London night link that I'm sure would receive patronage at least in the central section.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Dec 7, 2021 18:08:06 GMT
I do think a night network review of North London is quite overdue, potentially if I were suggest one I'd involve the N5/N13/N20/N43/N102/N113/N134/N271. I do think some of those routes have really dropped in demand over recent years and I think it's evident with the Night Tube having been introduced and East Finchley is very oversubscribed for night services, especially if the N271 does in fact go ahead. I think there could also be scope for increases on some potentially as well.
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Post by greg on Dec 7, 2021 21:08:24 GMT
I do think a night network review of North London is quite overdue, potentially if I were suggest one I'd involve the N5/N13/N20/N43/N102/N113/N134/N271. I do think some of those routes have really dropped in demand over recent years and I think it's evident with the Night Tube having been introduced and East Finchley is very oversubscribed for night services, especially if the N271 does in fact go ahead. I think there could also be scope for increases on some potentially as well. One id say is an N263, Trafalgar Square to Barnet Church, via the N20 between Barnet and Archway, 271 to Highbury & Islington and N41 to Trafalgar Square. N20 withdrawn - Night Tube, N134/N263 alternatives
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Post by LondonNorthern on Dec 7, 2021 22:29:30 GMT
I do think a night network review of North London is quite overdue, potentially if I were suggest one I'd involve the N5/N13/N20/N43/N102/N113/N134/N271. I do think some of those routes have really dropped in demand over recent years and I think it's evident with the Night Tube having been introduced and East Finchley is very oversubscribed for night services, especially if the N271 does in fact go ahead. I think there could also be scope for increases on some potentially as well. One id say is an N263, Trafalgar Square to Barnet Church, via the N20 between Barnet and Archway, 271 to Highbury & Islington and N41 to Trafalgar Square. N20 withdrawn - Night Tube, N134/N263 alternatives I disagree. I think the review would need to include all but if I were to say an end result I would perhaps say either one of N20/N134 or one of N43/N271 discontinued with routings at night changed. As I say Highgate has 4 night bus services, North Finchley is soon to have 4, East Finchley soon to have 3, Finchley Central/Henlys Corner soon to have 3, I don't think all of them are needed.
I don't think an N263 is needed because the N43/N271 already exist and from what I can tell the N41 isn't bursting at night but happy to be corrected.
As I say before chopping away at well established links during the day, TFL really should've looked at the night network, there are plenty of places deserted of a night bus services such as New Barnet & Mill Hill East yet some areas are seriously overbussed with night services when the demand doesn't exist. To me I think you could perhaps withdraw the N134, increase the N43 to maybe 1 extra bph, divert the N20 between Archway & North Finchley via the proposed N271 (with the N271 discontinued and with the N13/N20/N102 mooted as alternative night services for East End Road patrons), and with the N43/N271 merged into a North Finchley to London Bridge night service, with perhaps the N43 taking on the Friern Barnet to North Finchley section of the N134, on normal LOR as far as Highbury & Islington, could be diverted down New North Road (if it has more demand than the current service) and then if the demand exists continue down the current 271 LOR, before then rejoining onto the current 43 LOR. That would drastically cut costs whilst retaining the majority of links.
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Post by enviroPB on Dec 9, 2021 11:43:22 GMT
And what's the problem with that? The N5 got savagely cut to 2bph post Night Tube and going by consultations dolled out by TfL, they cut the N5 with PVR projections based on near 100% capacity. I'd like to see the 1 have some night variant north of Holborn. There is demand at night for a direct bus from Elephant & Castle up to Camden; late and early buses on the 168 are generally busy which suggests there is demand at night. The Night Tube only runs two nights a week whereas the night bus network runs 363 nights a year. It's an accessory to late night travel, not an alternative. As busocculation has previously said, easiest way to achieve a night time link over the newly formed 1 is to re-number the N1 into N180 without any changes to the route structure and make the 1 24 hours. I think your key point is your last sentence of the second paragraph. I don't think TfL view night buses as an accessory but only as an alternative. The weekend night routes were the closest we got to night buses being a form of supplementary service but I don't think they're ever coming back. You've been nudging me to talk about this topic and I've done my best to resist... Gotta keep this short as it's not the relevant thread. I fear the night bus network will be stripped bare to the turn of the new millennium where demand was 173% of capacity actually provided. And I'm no fool to the fact the Olympics brought about funding & extra resources for routes like the N15, N35 and N55; funding that stuck after the Paralympics. Some members on here like to bash me for the volume of night buses I do use, instead of acknowledging I'm a young, sociable adult who's also a bus enthusiast. Nights out always resort in public transportation after my activities have finished, and the past 9 years have only taught me that TfL will be forced kicking & screaming to adequately provide services on the night bus network. This fear will only be exasperated by the financial knock-on effects by the pandemic.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 9, 2021 12:37:23 GMT
I think your key point is your last sentence of the second paragraph. I don't think TfL view night buses as an accessory but only as an alternative. The weekend night routes were the closest we got to night buses being a form of supplementary service but I don't think they're ever coming back. You've been nudging me to talk about this topic and I've done my best to resist... Gotta keep this short as it's not the relevant thread. I fear the night bus network will be stripped bare to the turn of the new millennium where demand was 173% of capacity actually provided. And I'm no fool to the fact the Olympics brought about funding & extra resources for routes like the N15, N35 and N55; funding that stuck after the Paralympics. Some members on here like to bash me for the volume of night buses I do use, instead of acknowledging I'm a young, sociable adult who's also a bus enthusiast. Nights out always resort in public transportation after my activities have finished, and the past 9 years have only taught me that TfL will be forced kicking & screaming to adequately provide services on the night bus network. This fear will only be exasperated by the financial knock-on effects by the pandemic. What’s wrong with the volume of night buses you use?
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Post by SILENCED on Dec 9, 2021 12:45:06 GMT
I think your key point is your last sentence of the second paragraph. I don't think TfL view night buses as an accessory but only as an alternative. The weekend night routes were the closest we got to night buses being a form of supplementary service but I don't think they're ever coming back. You've been nudging me to talk about this topic and I've done my best to resist... Gotta keep this short as it's not the relevant thread. I fear the night bus network will be stripped bare to the turn of the new millennium where demand was 173% of capacity actually provided. And I'm no fool to the fact the Olympics brought about funding & extra resources for routes like the N15, N35 and N55; funding that stuck after the Paralympics. Some members on here like to bash me for the volume of night buses I do use, instead of acknowledging I'm a young, sociable adult who's also a bus enthusiast. Nights out always resort in public transportation after my activities have finished, and the past 9 years have only taught me that TfL will be forced kicking & screaming to adequately provide services on the night bus network. This fear will only be exasperated by the financial knock-on effects by the pandemic. Intrigued how you got the figure demand was 173% of capacity ...
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Post by danorak on Dec 9, 2021 12:53:22 GMT
Everything's up in the air really. Given the concerns about personal safety and how low paid key shift workers rely on them, I wouldn't expect to see night buses decimated. The recovery of hospitality post-pandemic may have an effect though.
What I think we might see is a drift away from 24 hour routes back to more N-series routes as the daytime network is redrawn. There may be overlaps that could be lost by linking suburban and central routes together and starting night buses earlier in the evening is something that might give efficiencies.
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Post by enviroPB on Dec 9, 2021 14:07:35 GMT
You've been nudging me to talk about this topic and I've done my best to resist... Gotta keep this short as it's not the relevant thread. I fear the night bus network will be stripped bare to the turn of the new millennium where demand was 173% of capacity actually provided. And I'm no fool to the fact the Olympics brought about funding & extra resources for routes like the N15, N35 and N55; funding that stuck after the Paralympics. Some members on here like to bash me for the volume of night buses I do use, instead of acknowledging I'm a young, sociable adult who's also a bus enthusiast. Nights out always resort in public transportation after my activities have finished, and the past 9 years have only taught me that TfL will be forced kicking & screaming to adequately provide services on the night bus network. This fear will only be exasperated by the financial knock-on effects by the pandemic. What’s wrong with the volume of night buses you use? Nothing in my personal opinion, if anything it's (rightfully) dropped in the past 18 or so months so not using 'em enough! When talking about the weekend night routes in particular, I've seen some snide comments suggesting they're only used by enthusiasts. I'm one man, I can't make up the 500,000+ passenger figure on my own for the 123N as an example. It's in my firm belief however that some weekend night routes should be 24/7, it takes little resources and would better fill in some gaps in the night-time network. One from each corner of London would suffice: perhaps the 123, 154, E1 & H37 as modest suggestions. You've been nudging me to talk about this topic and I've done my best to resist... Gotta keep this short as it's not the relevant thread. I fear the night bus network will be stripped bare to the turn of the new millennium where demand was 173% of capacity actually provided. And I'm no fool to the fact the Olympics brought about funding & extra resources for routes like the N15, N35 and N55; funding that stuck after the Paralympics. Some members on here like to bash me for the volume of night buses I do use, instead of acknowledging I'm a young, sociable adult who's also a bus enthusiast. Nights out always resort in public transportation after my activities have finished, and the past 9 years have only taught me that TfL will be forced kicking & screaming to adequately provide services on the night bus network. This fear will only be exasperated by the financial knock-on effects by the pandemic. Intrigued how you got the figure demand was 173% of capacity ... It was touted in the media and on TfL documents around the time of the Olympics and beyond when the night bus network got a much needed cash injection. I'm sure if you read the relevant threads, you'll find the info you seek.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 9, 2021 14:35:20 GMT
What’s wrong with the volume of night buses you use? Nothing in my personal opinion, if anything it's (rightfully) dropped in the past 18 or so months so not using 'em enough! When talking about the weekend night routes in particular, I've seen some snide comments suggesting they're only used by enthusiasts. I'm one man, I can't make up the 500,000+ passenger figure on my own for the 123N as an example. It's in my firm belief however that some weekend night routes should be 24/7, it takes little resources and would better fill in some gaps in the night-time network. One from each corner of London would suffice: perhaps the 123, 154, E1 & H37 as modest suggestions. Intrigued how you got the figure demand was 173% of capacity ... It was touted in the media and on TfL documents around the time of the Olympics and beyond when the night bus network got a much needed cash injection. I'm sure if you read the relevant threads, you'll find the info you seek. Only a troll would say they're only used by enthusiasts - the figures spoke for themselves.
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Post by cl54 on Dec 9, 2021 14:57:04 GMT
However Surrey Quays Shopping Centre is due to de demolished in 2022, so perhaps a slight reroute would allow the new 1 to gain LTs. Not all that long after the closure and demolition of Elephant & Castle shopping centre, not far away. The Surrey Quays site is being redeveloped with a new shopping/leisure complex and thousands of new homes. The area has already been the subject of a TFL planning exercise because of the number of new homes under construction. Additional routes and new links are proposed. The Elephant & Castle site is also being redeveloped with shops and new homes.
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Post by ian on Jan 19, 2022 8:43:00 GMT
I see there is an update:
Consultation has concluded
Between 22 November 2021 and 9 January 2022, we held a public consultation on proposals to restructure routes 1, 168 and 188. We proposed to merge routes 1 and 168 to introduce a new route operating between Hampstead Heath and Canada Water and curtail route 188 so that it operates to and from Tottenham Court Road.
We received 342 responses to the consultation. Thank you to those who took the time to reply to our survey or submit comments. We are now considering all feedback received and we aim to make our final decision as to whether or not to proceed with the proposals by early March 2022. We will also respond to issues raised during the consultation period and publish a report with the findings and our final decision.
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Post by SILENCED on Jan 19, 2022 9:12:22 GMT
I see there is an update: Consultation has concluded Between 22 November 2021 and 9 January 2022, we held a public consultation on proposals to restructure routes 1, 168 and 188. We proposed to merge routes 1 and 168 to introduce a new route operating between Hampstead Heath and Canada Water and curtail route 188 so that it operates to and from Tottenham Court Road. We received 342 responses to the consultation. Thank you to those who took the time to reply to our survey or submit comments. We are now considering all feedback received and we aim to make our final decision as to whether or not to proceed with the proposals by early March 2022. We will also respond to issues raised during the consultation period and publish a report with the findings and our final decision. 342 responses ... well that one will be going ahead as planned
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Post by greenboy on Jan 19, 2022 9:25:05 GMT
I see there is an update: Consultation has concluded Between 22 November 2021 and 9 January 2022, we held a public consultation on proposals to restructure routes 1, 168 and 188. We proposed to merge routes 1 and 168 to introduce a new route operating between Hampstead Heath and Canada Water and curtail route 188 so that it operates to and from Tottenham Court Road. We received 342 responses to the consultation. Thank you to those who took the time to reply to our survey or submit comments. We are now considering all feedback received and we aim to make our final decision as to whether or not to proceed with the proposals by early March 2022. We will also respond to issues raised during the consultation period and publish a report with the findings and our final decision. Significantly less responses for this one and it's difficult to see much of an argument against it, there will be the same service from Surrey Quays to Holborn and from Hampstead Heath to Bricklayers Arms. The 21/271 might be a bit more contentious.
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