Why no LU service reductions

[rj131]

I have to bring this up as I found the stats in this fascinating.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/new-london-route-63-buses-skylights-phone-chargers-official-launch-tfl-sadiq-khan-b982065.html

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-tube-underground-passenger-numbers-wfh-b981798.html

So the 63’s usage has returned “close to” pre-pandemic levels, with the other article stating current bus use is at 75%, with others in outer London seeming to have gone back to 100%.

And current tube usage is only a dismal 55%-60% of pre-pandemic use, and they say is likely to ‘never return to pre-pandemic levels’.

So this begs the question if bus usage has recovered far better than tube usage (tbh which I think is unsurprising given the perceptive ‘covid safety’ of the underground and peoples living standards getting enormously squeezed this year, hence looking to find cheaper transport), why is it the bus network that’s getting all the abusive cuts? And the tube seems to get away scot-free with drastically declining passengers? Also given a tube service is likely far far FAR more expensive to run than a bus service.

[Eastlondoner62]

Feb 12, 2022 11:38:56 GMT rj131 said:

I have to bring this up as I found the stats in this fascinating.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/new-london-route-63-buses-skylights-phone-chargers-official-launch-tfl-sadiq-khan-b982065.html

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-tube-underground-passenger-numbers-wfh-b981798.html

So the 63’s usage has returned “close to” pre-pandemic levels, with the other article stating current bus use is at 75%, with others in outer London seeming to have gone back to 100%.

And current tube usage is only a dismal 55%-60% of pre-pandemic use, and they say is likely to ‘never return to pre-pandemic levels’.

So this begs the question if bus usage has recovered far better than tube usage (tbh which I think is unsurprising given the perceptive ‘covid safety’ of the underground and peoples living standards getting enormously squeezed this year, hence looking to find cheaper transport), why is it the bus network that’s getting all the abusive cuts? And the tube seems to get away scot-free with drastically declining passengers? Also given a tube service is likely far far FAR more expensive to run than a bus service.

It's a quite easy answer, a reduced bus service can have the spare buses easily redeployed and the drivers easily redeployed too.

If you cut tube services, these tubes will be sat in the depot. The Victoria Line's 09 stock won't fit on anything else and tube drivers often say learning to drive new stock is like learning how to drive from scratch all over again so it's just not worth redeploying drivers either. Not to mention the tube is a lot cheaper to run as a per pax number as the electricity tends to be on anyway and being electric they don't cost too much to run. Not to mention if tube numbers do pick up again, it's not easy to ramp up a tube service again, trains sat in storage will need checks done and that can cost thousands. Not to mention overcrowding can be deadly while it's far less likely to be the case on a bus. 

[southlondonbus]

Also buses weren't carry as many passengers by 2018 as they had previously done hence large scale consultations in 2017 and 2018 to reduce services.

[capitalomnibus]

Feb 12, 2022 11:50:38 GMT Eastlondoner62 said:

Feb 12, 2022 11:38:56 GMT rj131 said:

I have to bring this up as I found the stats in this fascinating.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/new-london-route-63-buses-skylights-phone-chargers-official-launch-tfl-sadiq-khan-b982065.html

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-tube-underground-passenger-numbers-wfh-b981798.html

So the 63’s usage has returned “close to” pre-pandemic levels, with the other article stating current bus use is at 75%, with others in outer London seeming to have gone back to 100%.

And current tube usage is only a dismal 55%-60% of pre-pandemic use, and they say is likely to ‘never return to pre-pandemic levels’.

So this begs the question if bus usage has recovered far better than tube usage (tbh which I think is unsurprising given the perceptive ‘covid safety’ of the underground and peoples living standards getting enormously squeezed this year, hence looking to find cheaper transport), why is it the bus network that’s getting all the abusive cuts? And the tube seems to get away scot-free with drastically declining passengers? Also given a tube service is likely far far FAR more expensive to run than a bus service.

It's a quite easy answer, a reduced bus service can have the spare buses easily redeployed and the drivers easily redeployed too.

If you cut tube services, these tubes will be sat in the depot. The Victoria Line's 09 stock won't fit on anything else and tube drivers often say learning to drive new stock is like learning how to drive from scratch all over again so it's just not worth redeploying drivers either. Not to mention the tube is a lot cheaper to run as a per pax number as the electricity tends to be on anyway and being electric they don't cost too much to run. Not to mention if tube numbers do pick up again, it's not easy to ramp up a tube service again, trains sat in storage will need checks done and that can cost thousands. Not to mention overcrowding can be deadly while it's far less likely to be the case on a bus. 

It would not be a matter of redeploying drivers on the Underground. It can be used as a means on freeze on recruitment and would have also covered staff sickness. They could have reduced the train timings by changing the schedule. Although the next side of the coin would have had people complaining then of being on more packed trains and they were not able to socially distance.
The tube was overcrowded as it is. So if levels are around 70%, that should make it a more normal and easier ride, instead of the sardine cattle truck conditions that normally ensue on the rush hour peak.
I cannot say the tube is cheaper to run per passenger number, if that was the case, there would be so much more train systems in the UK. It is not just electricity costs, there are so much other things, staff costs, insurance, maintenance etc. Stations also cost a lot of money to run.

[wirewiper]

There have been frequency reductions on the Underground. The Bakerloo had off-peak frequency reductions in May last year, with minor reductions on the underground (small u) section and more severe ones on the open-air section that is shared with London Overground (there are now only 4tph to Harrow & Wealdstone when there were 6). The reason given for the change was to improve reliability by allowing more turnround time between journeys.

Also the Waterloo & City Line has had a restricted service since it reopened. For a while it was peak times only, and even now only a 4-train service (rather than 5-train) operates at peak times. And the Saturday and Sunday service has yet to be restored.

[MoEnviro]

Feb 20, 2022 18:16:34 GMT wirewiper said:

There have been frequency reductions on the Underground. The Bakerloo had off-peak frequency reductions in May last year, with minor reductions on the underground (small u) section and more severe ones on the open-air section that is shared with London Overground (there are now only 4tph to Harrow & Wealdstone when there were 6). The reason given for the change was to improve reliability by allowing more turnround time between journeys.

Also the Waterloo & City Line has had a restricted service since it reopened. For a while it was peak times only, and even now only a 4-train service (rather than 5-train) operates at peak times. And the Saturday and Sunday service has yet to be restored.

The Jubilee Line also saw a frequency reduction recently, especially on the northern open air sections. The issue with changing Underground timetables is they take a lot longer to produce and can only be changed a couple of times a year. Whereas the buses don't have as much regulation (if you pardon the pun) and can change a timetable start to finish in 6-8 weeks. 

[Dstock7080]

Feb 20, 2022 18:16:34 GMT wirewiper said:

Also the Waterloo & City Line has had a restricted service since it reopened. For a while it was peak times only, and even now only a 4-train service (rather than 5-train) operates at peak times. And the Saturday and Sunday service has yet to be restored.

The Waterloo & City reduction is due to one train undertaking some CLIP modifications in Waterloo depot, all 5 trains will be dealt with.