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Post by WH241 on Apr 12, 2023 19:14:41 GMT
I might sound skeptical but do wonder how many in the photo would use a bus service if a service ran. Feels more like a photo opportunity than anything else.....
This from elsewhere shows how low usage was.
According to TfL figures, the transport authority must find savings of £740million in the 2023/24 financial year.
The spokesperson said figures “consistently” showed fewer than nine passengers crossed the Greater London boundary on the 84 on a typical day.
That 'nine passengers per day' figure is an outright lie. They used figures from lockdown and Metroline colluded in this to justify withdrawing the route. Easily nine passengers per day on a single bus, despite how unreliable Metroline made it deliberately. I don't know, why don't you ask all the people who bothered to make handmade signs, including a group of schoolkids who bothered to turn up in the Easter holidays and patients at Potters Bar and Barnet Hospitals, if they would use it. Maybe for the politicians it was a photo opportunity but not for others. It was a commercial route so Metroline was free to withdraw the route so why would they need justification? It was losing money and that is most likely why Sullivan's had no interest in the withdrawn section.
It's been a year now and passengers have found alternative ways of getting about. Even if the 84 was to return it would probably carry even less passengers. As for the signs they are not exactly hard to make and a small group of friends could probably got together one afternoon to make them. You read about these type of protests elsewhere and services have been reintroduced after pressure on use it or lose in trials and guess what they end up withdrawn despise all the big protests,
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Post by cardinal on Apr 12, 2023 19:20:27 GMT
Nine per day ? That’s a lie. When I last used the 84 to Barnet I’m sure there was at least nine on that single trip. I think the interim solution is a one or two bus localised service linking the two towns. From what I recall as well the St Albans to Potters Bar section was the quietest. Yes, turns out someone already did an FOI and it confirms this. Also that "TfL has not collected recent information on detailed patterns of usage of the route." tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2501-2122They have so much contempt they don't even think that people will pick them up on their lies. I can see why TfL aren’t interested . But what annoys me is this bureaucratic nonsense that always impacts buffer zones that have invisible boundaries running through them. That said, Barnet and Potters Bar residents need to be sufficiently tempted to use a service linking the two towns. So I would argue that if you make it tempting , cheap , reliable and available (ie first and last bus connections with the tube ) then people will use it. Its downfall was the routes length. Keep it simple , Potters Bar to Barnet all day everyday, cheap etc and people will use it. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Apr 12, 2023 19:20:50 GMT
Nine per day ? That’s a lie. When I last used the 84 to Barnet I’m sure there was at least nine on that single trip. I think the interim solution is a one or two bus localised service linking the two towns. From what I recall as well the St Albans to Potters Bar section was the quietest. Yes, turns out someone already did an FOI and it confirms this. Also that "TfL has not collected recent information on detailed patterns of usage of the route." tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2501-2122They have so much contempt they don't even think that people will pick them up on their lies. So then the problem is with Metroline providing a fully commercial service and not TfL. Perhaps you should direct your issue with them and not TfL? It’s clear that TfL has had nothing to do with the route since 2012 when the LSP started. So for 11 years TfL has had no responsibility for the 84, beyond collecting a fee for permit renewal. If Metroline has feed TfL false truths to justify themselves what exactly does that have to do with TfL? |
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Post by uakari on Apr 12, 2023 19:24:53 GMT
So then the problem is with Metroline providing a fully commercial service and not TfL. Perhaps you should direct your issue with them and not TfL? It’s clear that TfL has had nothing to do with the route since 2012 when the LSP started. So for 11 years TfL has had no responsibility for the 84, beyond collecting a fee for permit renewal. If Metroline has feed TfL false truths to justify themselves what exactly does that have to do with TfL? It's their responsibility to check the veracity of what they're claiming and not just trust an operator who cooks figures to avoid bad publicity. TfL might well have also made the figures up themselves or just defined 'consistently' as referring to lockdown periods. TfL have a responsibility to provide a bus service to Hadley Highstone at the very least. Herts CC also have responsibility for the part in their area. Why are you 'going round in circles' about things we've already discussed? |
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Post by southlondon413 on Apr 12, 2023 19:36:30 GMT
So then the problem is with Metroline providing a fully commercial service and not TfL. Perhaps you should direct your issue with them and not TfL? It’s clear that TfL has had nothing to do with the route since 2012 when the LSP started. So for 11 years TfL has had no responsibility for the 84, beyond collecting a fee for permit renewal. If Metroline has feed TfL false truths to justify themselves what exactly does that have to do with TfL? It's their responsibility to check the veracity of what they're claiming and not just trust an operator who cooks figures to avoid bad publicity. TfL might well have also made the figures up themselves or just defined 'consistently' as referring to lockdown periods. TfL have a responsibility to provide a bus service to Hadley Highstone at the very least. Herts CC also have responsibility for the part in their area. Why are you 'going round in circles' about things we've already discussed? But neither TfL or HCC have any responsibility over the 84 because it was run as a fully commercial service, you need to accept that as a reality. Deflecting to blame TfL or HCC isn’t going to change that fact. It isn’t TfLs job to monitor a route that doesn’t fall under their responsibility. I will agree with you that someone has a responsibility to provide a better service in the Hadley area but that would only likely result in a few more 399 journeys. If the demand isn’t there then the supply won’t be provided. |
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Post by uakari on Apr 12, 2023 19:44:13 GMT
It's their responsibility to check the veracity of what they're claiming and not just trust an operator who cooks figures to avoid bad publicity. TfL might well have also made the figures up themselves or just defined 'consistently' as referring to lockdown periods. TfL have a responsibility to provide a bus service to Hadley Highstone at the very least. Herts CC also have responsibility for the part in their area. Why are you 'going round in circles' about things we've already discussed? But neither TfL or HCC have any responsibility over the 84 because it was run as a fully commercial service, you need to accept that as a reality. Deflecting to blame TfL or HCC isn’t going to change that fact. It isn’t TfLs job to monitor a route that doesn’t fall under their responsibility. I will agree with you that someone has a responsibility to provide a better service in the Hadley area but that would only likely result in a few more 399 journeys. If the demand isn’t there then the supply won’t be provided. The responsibility isn't for the 84 itself; it's for bus services in the area. People in Hadley Highstone pay tax to TfL like everyone else, so who else's responsibility is it? The 399 is mainly for people in Hadley Wood and Monken Hadley, not the Highstone. They existed together fine for many years. Why are some posters making the same points again and again rather than commenting on the new article itself? |
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Post by southlondon413 on Apr 12, 2023 19:59:24 GMT
But neither TfL or HCC have any responsibility over the 84 because it was run as a fully commercial service, you need to accept that as a reality. Deflecting to blame TfL or HCC isn’t going to change that fact. It isn’t TfLs job to monitor a route that doesn’t fall under their responsibility. I will agree with you that someone has a responsibility to provide a better service in the Hadley area but that would only likely result in a few more 399 journeys. If the demand isn’t there then the supply won’t be provided. The responsibility isn't for the 84 itself; it's for bus services in the area. People in Hadley Highstone pay tax to TfL like everyone else, so who else's responsibility is it? The 399 is mainly for people in Hadley Wood and Monken Hadley, not the Highstone. They existed together fine for many years. Why are some posters making the same points again and again rather than commenting on the new article itself? That article is a joke and really poorly written. It just reads as a bunch of crackpots who have no real concept of how the real world works. 40 of them turned up, not enough to justify a full service, they’ll barely fill one bus. Accept the reality and organise a community charity bus, they are exempt from the LSP fee and tax deductible. Partner with local businesses, do something for yourselves instead of blaming an archaic transport operator who has no interest in any of you because you don’t mean anything to their bottom line. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 12, 2023 20:18:41 GMT
Accept the reality and organise a community charity bus, they are exempt from the LSP fee and tax deductible. Partner with local businesses, do something for yourselves instead of blaming an archaic transport operator who has no interest in any of you because you don’t mean anything to their bottom line. That to me actually sounds reasonable. I use the very similar Cobham Chatterbus regularly down in Surrey - it does very well timing its journeys to when the majority want them. Perhaps a Potters Bar version would do equally well? |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 12, 2023 22:04:48 GMT
To park this argument to one side, would there be any problem with no longer inter-working the 389 and 399 and extending the 389 from The Spires to Potters Bar? Last time I checked it would be quite tight schedule wise to operate on one bus but too inefficient to run on 2 (there would be excess stand time at the Potters Bar end). Granted, this would provide a half hourly service from Hadley Green to The Spires and re introduce a link from Hadley Highstone to High Barnet Station. Not 84 level frequency but I don't think it sounds like a terrible solution given TFL are anti-cross border services.
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Post by uakari on Apr 12, 2023 22:15:29 GMT
To park this argument to one side, would there be any problem with no longer inter-working the 389 and 399 and extending the 389 from The Spires to Potters Bar? Last time I checked it would be quite tight schedule wise to operate on one bus but too inefficient to run on 2 (there would be excess stand time at the Potters Bar end). Granted, this would provide a half hourly service from Hadley Green to The Spires and re introduce a link from Hadley Highstone to High Barnet Station. Not 84 level frequency but I don't think it sounds like a terrible solution given TFL are anti-cross border services. Yes that's one option. I don't think there is enough time to operate it with one vehicle though. The 389 change to the 399 at The Spires isn't very long. A lot of the 84 traffic was also at school times, which the 389 wouldn't cover with its current timetable. 383 is probably better and of course used to go to PB. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 12, 2023 22:49:40 GMT
To park this argument to one side, would there be any problem with no longer inter-working the 389 and 399 and extending the 389 from The Spires to Potters Bar? Last time I checked it would be quite tight schedule wise to operate on one bus but too inefficient to run on 2 (there would be excess stand time at the Potters Bar end). Granted, this would provide a half hourly service from Hadley Green to The Spires and re introduce a link from Hadley Highstone to High Barnet Station. Not 84 level frequency but I don't think it sounds like a terrible solution given TFL are anti-cross border services. Yes that's one option. I don't think there is enough time to operate it with one vehicle though. The 389 change to the 399 at The Spires isn't very long. A lot of the 84 traffic was also at school times, which the 389 wouldn't cover with its current timetable. 383 is probably better and of course used to go to PB. I think the 383 option is the best given it matches the old 84 frequency and would be a cheap option (not as cheap as the 389/399 option of course) and some costs could further saved if necessary by running it to Potters Bar only during the times the old 84 run (i.e. if last 84 was at 18:00, the 383 would follow suit) and the rest of the time, terminate at Barnet as it currently does. I’d rather have it standardised as I firmly believe in standardised networks but this could be one of the few exceptions to the rule |
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Post by uakari on Apr 13, 2023 1:52:49 GMT
Yes that's one option. I don't think there is enough time to operate it with one vehicle though. The 389 change to the 399 at The Spires isn't very long. A lot of the 84 traffic was also at school times, which the 389 wouldn't cover with its current timetable. 383 is probably better and of course used to go to PB. I think the 383 option is the best given it matches the old 84 frequency and would be a cheap option (not as cheap as the 389/399 option of course) and some costs could further saved if necessary by running it to Potters Bar only during the times the old 84 run (i.e. if last 84 was at 18:00, the 383 would follow suit) and the rest of the time, terminate at Barnet as it currently does. I’d rather have it standardised as I firmly believe in standardised networks but this could be one of the few exceptions to the rule Just FYI, the old 84 ran later than the 383 (last bus used to leave New Barnet at 23:30 and then got cut back to 22:00). Also 84 ran on Sundays and 383 doesn't. But yes 383 would be much better than nothing. |
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Post by greenboy on Apr 13, 2023 6:02:53 GMT
Surely they're trying to flog a dead horse? If Sullivans weren't willing to cover Barnet to Potters Bar then why should TfL? A year on and surely people have found alternative routes such as the train? |
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Post by VMH2537 on Apr 13, 2023 6:50:26 GMT
Surely they're trying to flog a dead horse? If Sullivans weren't willing to cover Barnet to Potters Bar then why should TfL? A year on and surely people have found alternative routes such as the train? The only alternative risked end up being created is driving. This is a link that been established for decades and was said to be one of the busiest sections of the 84. The only reason Sullivan couldn't run to Barnet being TfL weren't able to fund the GLA routing being they were in a middle of financial uncertainty. I can personally see the link eventually returning, however will require both HCC and TfL to negotiate funding for a service. Ideally it should be both equally. |
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