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Post by Dillon95 on Jul 9, 2022 21:53:52 GMT
What about the people that rely on the service? Not everyone has a car. That’s the whole point of public transport. How is someone in say Hextable that has a job in Dartford or Bluewater for that matter supposed to get to work now? Sorry but you seriously can’t expect a service to be maintained just because someone works away from a village that’s not how public transport works. Are you really expecting KCC to subsidise a service that would cost hundreds of pounds per trip? Surely it’s down to the person to find another way or another job? Sorry if this appears blunt. The only other way is driving. Yay more pollution.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 9, 2022 21:55:15 GMT
What about the people that rely on the service? Not everyone has a car. That’s the whole point of public transport. How is someone in say Hextable that has a job in Dartford or Bluewater for that matter supposed to get to work now? Sorry but you seriously can’t expect a service to be maintained just because someone works away from a village that’s not how public transport works. Are you really expecting KCC to subsidise a service that would cost hundreds of pounds per trip? Surely it’s down to the person to find another way or another job? Sorry if this appears blunt. Your not suggesting someone should leave their job through no fault of their own? That sounds rather harsh? I'm sure the already under staffed employer would be happy to hear that...
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 9, 2022 22:09:45 GMT
Do you really see Kent County Council funding a bus route that carries air most of the time, regardless of Crockenhill/Hextable/Wilmington losing their bus service? The best you are likely to get I think is Go Coach expanding the Go2 service to cover Crockenhill and those bits of Hextable that aren’t yet covered. Wilmington is likely to be just left with its TfL/KCC school buses. Of course, there will likely be adverse consequences to this as well - I mean those who few are left using it would likely be put off bothering with public transport at all so that's more custom lost in general at a time when people really should be being drawn out of their cars and onto public transport, no matter how few or many you can coax on board. I just think it's rather sad that authorities like KCC just default to cut mode rather than actually exploring all options before resorting to that - I mean, I actually wonder have they looked into if an improved 477 could bring in people and thus bring in more money given we know most authorities have little clue with many of the decisions they make? I'm quite surprised there seems to be no discussions with other operators at the very least unlike with Hertfordshire who seem to to try and find a solution whenever they have to withdraw funding from routes such as the 84 & the soon to be withdrawn Amersham to Watford section of the 103 - Metroline deemed the 84 to not be worth it yet Sullivans by all accounts have apparently done rather well with it since taking it on. Just to be slightly pedantic : the 477 is Arriva commercial, and it is Arriva that are proposing to withdraw the route. Where KCC come into it is their potential to provide a replacement, which I see as somewhat unlikely. As I’ve said elsewhere, the best I can see happening is a Go2 expansion.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 10, 2022 7:42:48 GMT
Of course, there will likely be adverse consequences to this as well - I mean those who few are left using it would likely be put off bothering with public transport at all so that's more custom lost in general at a time when people really should be being drawn out of their cars and onto public transport, no matter how few or many you can coax on board. I just think it's rather sad that authorities like KCC just default to cut mode rather than actually exploring all options before resorting to that - I mean, I actually wonder have they looked into if an improved 477 could bring in people and thus bring in more money given we know most authorities have little clue with many of the decisions they make? I'm quite surprised there seems to be no discussions with other operators at the very least unlike with Hertfordshire who seem to to try and find a solution whenever they have to withdraw funding from routes such as the 84 & the soon to be withdrawn Amersham to Watford section of the 103 - Metroline deemed the 84 to not be worth it yet Sullivans by all accounts have apparently done rather well with it since taking it on. Just to be slightly pedantic : the 477 is Arriva commercial, and it is Arriva that are proposing to withdraw the route. Where KCC come into it is their potential to provide a replacement, which I see as somewhat unlikely. As I’ve said elsewhere, the best I can see happening is a Go2 expansion. Yes I think some sort of replacement from Go2 is the best that can be hoped for and they'll surely run a better service than Arriva have with regular cancellations because of driver shortages.
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Post by kmkcheng on Jul 10, 2022 10:44:45 GMT
I'm quite surprised there seems to be no discussions with other operators at the very least unlike with Hertfordshire who seem to to try and find a solution whenever they have to withdraw funding from routes such as the 84 & the soon to be withdrawn Amersham to Watford section of the 103 - Metroline deemed the 84 to not be worth it yet Sullivans by all accounts have apparently done rather well with it since taking it on. Arriva may be giving up the 477 but they will be giving the withdrawn section of the 103 a go as LOTS have announced they will reintroduce the 336 between Watford and Amersham
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Post by Dillon95 on Jul 10, 2022 11:47:24 GMT
Slashing the Bluewater section couldn’t have helped the passenger levels, it’s been an unreliable service for as long as I can remember as well. They should have done more to advertise and brand the service. I think it’s sickening that villages are being left isolated. Even if the numbers are down, the people that rely on the service are going to have their lives altered by this change. People need it for work, school, college, hospital appointments, job centre appointments, seeing family and friends etc. Are their lives supposed to just completely stop? Kent County Council needs to step in.
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Post by lb99 on Jul 10, 2022 12:22:30 GMT
Slashing the Bluewater section couldn’t have helped the passenger levels, it’s been an unreliable service for as long as I can remember as well. They should have done more to advertise and brand the service. I think it’s sickening that villages are being left isolated. Even if the numbers are down, the people that rely on the service are going to have their lives altered by this change. People need it for work, school, college, hospital appointments, job centre appointments, seeing family and friends etc. Are their lives supposed to just completely stop? Kent County Council needs to step in. Yes i agree slashing the route like that isnt going to help anyone... Doesnt the 477 enter areas no other bus goes to?
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Post by danorak on Jul 10, 2022 12:25:30 GMT
Pre-pandemic, I needed to get from Swanley to Orpington. Rather than using the 477, it was easier to get a 233 to Foots Cray and then a 51. It's a shame how a formerly important route like the 477 has withered but I suppose its traditional ridership around St Mary Cray is now better served by the R6 and the like. I agree with others that an expansion of Go-Coach's DRT service may be the best way of serving Crockenhill.
It's remarkable how little remains of what was Kentish Bus.
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Post by Dillon95 on Jul 10, 2022 13:28:24 GMT
Slashing the Bluewater section couldn’t have helped the passenger levels, it’s been an unreliable service for as long as I can remember as well. They should have done more to advertise and brand the service. I think it’s sickening that villages are being left isolated. Even if the numbers are down, the people that rely on the service are going to have their lives altered by this change. People need it for work, school, college, hospital appointments, job centre appointments, seeing family and friends etc. Are their lives supposed to just completely stop? Kent County Council needs to step in. Yes i agree slashing the route like that isnt going to help anyone... Doesnt the 477 enter areas no other bus goes to? Yep the Dartford, Wilmington, Hextable and Swanley section will now be completely unserved, as well as the Swanley, Crockenhill and St Mary Cray section.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 10, 2022 14:23:28 GMT
Yes i agree slashing the route like that isnt going to help anyone... Doesnt the 477 enter areas no other bus goes to? Yep the Dartford, Wilmington, Hextable and Swanley section will now be completely unserved, as well as the Swanley, Crockenhill and St Mary Cray section. Sorry : pedantry again. Dartford to Wilmington Church Hill will still have bus 414, and Hextable-Swanley-Swanley Station comes under Go2. The section of 477 from Wilmington Church Hill to Hextable, and also Swanley Station to St Mary Cray via Crockenhill is lost without replacement if the withdrawal proceeds.
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Post by Dillon95 on Jul 10, 2022 15:41:24 GMT
Yep the Dartford, Wilmington, Hextable and Swanley section will now be completely unserved, as well as the Swanley, Crockenhill and St Mary Cray section. Sorry : pedantry again. Dartford to Wilmington Church Hill will still have bus 414, and Hextable-Swanley-Swanley Station comes under Go2. The section of 477 from Wilmington Church Hill to Hextable, and also Swanley Station to St Mary Cray via Crockenhill is lost without replacement if the withdrawal proceeds. I don’t know what you’re classing as Wilmington, but I’ve circled the bulk of the village in red. The blue is the closest bus stops for the 414 to Dartford Town Centre & Station along Hawley Road by the Orange Tree pub. From the centre of the village it’s a mile walk, and I certainly wouldn’t want to walk that if I was disabled or elderly. That’s without the massive steep hill going home! A bit of a non starter really. That’s assuming it’s Dartford you need. If you work or have other appointments or responsibilities in Swanley or Orpington you’re literally screwed. Go Coach’s website seems to indicate that Swanley is covered by the Go 2 On Demand service, but only a part of Hextable is for some reason and Crockenhill isn’t at all. Either way, they aren’t going to take you to Dartford.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 10, 2022 16:40:44 GMT
I'm quite surprised there seems to be no discussions with other operators at the very least unlike with Hertfordshire who seem to to try and find a solution whenever they have to withdraw funding from routes such as the 84 & the soon to be withdrawn Amersham to Watford section of the 103 - Metroline deemed the 84 to not be worth it yet Sullivans by all accounts have apparently done rather well with it since taking it on. Arriva may be giving up the 477 but they will be giving the withdrawn section of the 103 a go as LOTS have announced they will reintroduce the 336 between Watford and Amersham And that’s my point - Hertfordshire seem to care to actually try and find a solution whilst Kent seem to be the complete opposite
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 10, 2022 16:41:12 GMT
I am certainly not quoting all of that, and my feeling is this has the potential to heat up rather, so after this post I am withdrawing from the conversation.
Frankly, posting a map at me as though I don’t know what I’m talking about is not a great look. Wilmington spreads out a long way - out to Dartford Heath and all the way down to the east end of Church Hill. Absolutely the centre of the village would lose its bus service - I don’t think I denied that. But it does remain that the only sections of 477 that are unique to it are St Mary Cray to Swanley Station via Crockenhill, and the roads from Hextable north through Wilmington village centre to the end of Church Hill. The Dartford end of the 477 is covered by the 414 (the 423 to New Ash Green is also slated for withdrawal in the same set of changes that will see the 477 withdrawn) and Hextable to Swanley Station is covered by Go2.
I don’t want the 477 to go any more than you do, but the business case for it looks somewhat flaccid, sadly.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 10, 2022 19:43:26 GMT
*From Cllr Perry Cole*
I thought it right in light of the recent and sudden declaration that the 477 Arriva service will cease in September/October once the 6 month extension to the Government Covid Bus Grant expires, to write a resume of the current and projected situation. I have been in regular contact with KCC since it was announced earlier this year that the 477 service was to be altered from Easter ‘22. I have been lobbying for a new style of service that could provide transport not just along the 477 corridor, but that could offer a service within a much wider geographic area - taking in many of the smaller villages in our area. Whilst my concerns have been noted and it was accepted that there was merit in my proposals, KCC were running their Bus consultation process - looking at which of the identified 129 subsidised services across Kent might be amended or cut. The 477 service, like many other routes that have subsequently been earmarked by their operators for further amendment or indeed full withdrawal of service, are termed ‘Commercial’ services - in that they received no subsidy and the operating costs and profits were provided by those using the service. These services fell outside the scope of the bus consultation as they received no KCC funding. Since being made aware of the shock announcement that the 477 is to be withdrawn I have undertaken to corroborate the information as well as to seek advice as to how residents in this part of Kent are to go about their daily business when the 423, 433, 474, 475, 477 services are to be withdrawn totally and the 489 timetable amended. I have written to the cabinet member for Highways as well as the head of KCC transport and copied in local County Councillors including the Leader of KCC, Roger Gough, with whom I will be raising this situation on Monday. I have heard from unofficial sources that a new or amended 2 hourly service from West Kingsdown to Darent Valley Hospital via Swanley and Dartford is to be introduced, but this is unconfirmed at this moment. I can assure you, contrary to what you may read or hear, that I care very much about the loss of these services and am searching for ways to identify funding and encourage bus operators to initialise new, innovative schemes to enable residents to go about their daily business and to prevent many residents from becoming isolated. I will, of course, continue to press our case here in the north of Kent and circulate information as and when I have any updates. I’m sorry that I cannot offer you any more positive news at this stage.
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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Jul 11, 2022 9:50:21 GMT
Could the Wilmington section be replaced by rerouting the B12? At Leyton Cross it would turn right and run 1 mile to Wilmington instead of left then running the same distance back to Coldblow. The only stop no longer served would be Bexley Park - still served by the 429. I know this is unlikely to happen but would not require a PVR increase. Only issue is standing/a hesitation point - I'd say Brewer's Field or outside the memorial hall but residents may not like this. Not local so feel free to correct me.
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