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Post by VMH2537 on Apr 19, 2024 18:31:05 GMT
!!!WARNING LONG POST!!!
So Superloop 2? Another attempt from TfL and the Mayor to please Londoners? Let’s dive into each route to see what we have.
Barnet to Stratford via Enfield and Walthamstow: Is this an error or mistake this is meant to be two different routes? If this route comes to fruition, god knows how any operator will meet the reliability targets. How exactly are buses going to take over on the A112? The standards of requiring space for overtaking seem to be removed. I’m guessing lessons from having the SL2 on Ilford Lane will be ignored for the sake of pleasing Walthamstow and Chingford residents who have been calling for the Hall Farm Curve to be restored but will argue this is temporary until built.
In the section between Barnet and Chingford, an idea that has been suggested in the past. As we've seen in introducing many Superloop routes, my greatest worries will result in a reduction of paralleling routes, looking at the 307 and the 313. The 307 potentially to every 12 minutes and the 313 to every 30 minutes if it's pushed. I do personally suspect the lack of stand space at Chingford is it can't be split into two routes and can’t terminate there unless it routes elsewhere.
Leytonstone to South Havering via Gants Hill and Romford: From the complaints and calls of Havering council moaning over a lack of Superloop, it is rightfully guessable in a response to it. As many suggested on the 66 route already proving a fast journey, it's hard to justify an express route running parallel rather than any route south of Romford for the sake of attempting to please the moaners of Havering council.
North Greenwich to Thamesmead via Woolwich: This is more of a radical route with replications of the old proposed Greenwich Waterfront Transit. I can personally see this being a success from supporting the growing developments in Thamesmead and alongside the Waterfront corridor up to North Greenwich. My only potential criticism is a potential frequency reduction on the 472 or even possibly involving restructuring the 180/472 routes.
Eltham to Streatham via Lee and Tulse Hill: I am again personally quite a fan of this route and can see success in it from linking major town centres of Catford, Eltham and Streatham. I can't comment much on being not familiar with the area, but it looks like one of the few routes I can see being successful.
Wimbledon to Richmond via Roehampton: One link many can agree on is Wimbledon missing a link to Richmond. With the 493 or South Western Railway somewhat only conducting the link. This can establish a direct link and potentially become popular. I have some ideas on how this route could unlock more potential, but I'll save it for another time.
Ealing Broadway to Kingston via Richmond: Has someone literally taken this idea from the fantasy thread or just looked on a plain Google Maps and concluded ‘Oh, 65 running every 6 minutes linking major town centres, perfect!’? Whilst it may sound like a good idea on paper, it hasn't been read as one of the main reasons why it won't work. With most of the routing running on narrow right roads, it's going to be very difficult if not near impossible for a Superloop bus to take over a stopping 65 effectively leaving it useless.
Hounslow to Hammersmith via Great West Road: This route came as the most surprise to me from TfL stating no Superloop will duplicate an existing rail line, but by the looks of it indeed it will. Much detail isn't published on it whether it's an express H91 itself or taking a slightly different route. I'm curious to see the justification and radical behind introducing a service on the corridor.
Hendon to Ealing Broadway via Hanger Lane: This route I can see the most successful out of the current proposals here. Mainly from supporting the 112 already at capacity from growing more than 30% in the last decade and will likely continue growing in the near future. It's much wiser to invest in capacity in the long term as well as seriously speed up journeys by routing on the A406. Though terminating at Hendon does seem an odd place to end it, I would've sent it elsewhere but I'll again save this for another time.
Harrow to Barnet via Edgware: This could potentially be a much improved service between Barnet and Edgware than the circuitous infrequent 384. However, I do fear this will be the cause of having the route restructured back to Quinta Drive replicating near its former route. I'm not convinced routing to Harrow from Edgware would be achievable on grounds of roads lacking the space for taking over shopping services effectively being near useless.
In all, whilst some of the routes are a much welcome addition to our network. Others currently seem very questionable as if some things were picked from a hat or simply reading from a blank Google Map without any research into how viable they are. I in god hope these routes are amended to be more realistic before publishing into consultation since they are draft or we'll just sit here watching the hardest way possible TfL are going to justify them. This as well shouldn't be sold as a cheap win for Sadiq Khan on improving bus services, many parts of the local network need addressing such as a lack of bus priority, abysmal 30 minutes or more running in urban areas making them useless, unwilling to invest in cross-border services, simple round the corner links and silly trimmings of running times making operations difficult.
I'll be posting another one soon, this time covering ideas on how I would do if I could improve or amend the Superloop alongside the current ones proposed.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 19, 2024 18:33:06 GMT
Cutting the SL7 and extending the SL5 at Sutton does seem a bit curious. I get how they are the longest and shortest routes respectively by quite a large factor, but something makes me think this isnt quite right; surely Croydon, Wallington and Carshalton have already established links to places like Heathrow Airport and Kingston? And then what about the SL5? Right now its a short and sweet route but extending it would wreck its reliability and completely overload the service unless those trees are cut down There is a rumored consultation coming for Carshalton and this amendment on this new map (which does say draft I might add) may simply fuel that even more. What makes me think it's a legitimate proposal is that this could be there way of answering the excess capacity point someone mentioned (I'm not fully convinced there is one) as the SL5 is single decker operated as well as making the SL7 that bit more reliable. The Croydon to Sutton shouldn't wreck the SL5 - Croydon really is the only part where you'll meet traffic on the Croydon to Sutton part and I don't really see the service being any more overloaded than it already is - the trees probably won't be cut so hopefully longer single deckers are introduced to mitigate that. I wonder if as Croydon to Bromley is obviously shorter then Sutton to Heathrow if its planned that the SL5 would have a couple more stops along the route to effectively take away more 407 demand. Beddington Plough and the one by Wandle Park Tram might be considered as ones well used by the 407.
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Post by mkay315 on Apr 19, 2024 18:33:24 GMT
And still no X53….😔😢 This Thamesmead to NG route is utterly overkill, between Woolwich & NG there already 3 routes that covers this corridor; the 161, 472 & 180, the last route didn’t need to be changed that drastically but I’ve made my feelings on the 180 more than clear. One route has to go, you don’t need 4 routes over this corridor, you don’t even need 3 in the age of the Elizabeth line at Woolwich which has taken away demand for NG. Khan/TfL seem to have forgotten the whole original point of the 472’s existence in the first place, it replaced both the 272/X72 routes while taking a faster route between Thamesmead and Woolwich by avoiding Abbey Wood, Bostall Hill & Plumstead High Street which the old 272 route took. The Eltham to Streatham route, honestly don’t see how this can work, it would have to use the South Circular for at least some of it’s journey if not alot of it, and that road is notoriously congested at the best of times, personally I’d have a Thamesmead-Woolwich-Blackheath Sun Sands-Westhorne-Catford-Sydenham-Crystal Palace-Streatham route, this would be an express route for the 54, 122 & 202 routes, all three routes are busy and could do with some relief without any alterations to their existing routes, what I’d do instead is have a Orpington to Streatham route that would roughly cover the 227/358 routes. The “Bakerloop” bus, my thoughts on that is that TfL are basically kicking the rusted tin can that is the Bakerloo extension, further down the road to the 2040s/2050s, what was supposed to be a “temporary” fix suddenly becomes a permanent solution if you catch my drift. Not sure how successful a Wimbledon to Richmond route would be seeing as the train takes less than 35 minutes to traverse that corridor. All in all, a desperate vote grab by Khan. You know they're still one move away from doing their desired cut which has stretched back from 1999 (you know which move I'm talking about)
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Post by route53 on Apr 19, 2024 18:36:26 GMT
And still no X53….😔😢 This Thamesmead to NG route is utterly overkill, between Woolwich & NG there already 3 routes that covers this corridor; the 161, 472 & 180, the last route didn’t need to be changed that drastically but I’ve made my feelings on the 180 more than clear. One route has to go, you don’t need 4 routes over this corridor, you don’t even need 3 in the age of the Elizabeth line at Woolwich which has taken away demand for NG. Khan/TfL seem to have forgotten the whole original point of the 472’s existence in the first place, it replaced both the 272/X72 routes while taking a faster route between Thamesmead and Woolwich by avoiding Abbey Wood, Bostall Hill & Plumstead High Street which the old 272 route took. The Eltham to Streatham route, honestly don’t see how this can work, it would have to use the South Circular for at least some of it’s journey if not alot of it, and that road is notoriously congested at the best of times, personally I’d have a Thamesmead-Woolwich-Blackheath Sun Sands-Westhorne-Catford-Sydenham-Crystal Palace-Streatham route, this would be an express route for the 54, 122 & 202 routes, all three routes are busy and could do with some relief without any alterations to their existing routes, what I’d do instead is have a Orpington to Streatham route that would roughly cover the 227/358 routes. The “Bakerloop” bus, my thoughts on that is that TfL are basically kicking the rusted tin can that is the Bakerloo extension, further down the road to the 2040s/2050s, what was supposed to be a “temporary” fix suddenly becomes a permanent solution if you catch my drift. Not sure how successful a Wimbledon to Richmond route would be seeing as the train takes less than 35 minutes to traverse that corridor. All in all, a desperate vote grab by Khan. You they're still one move away from doing their desired cut which has stretched back from 1999 (you know which move I'm talking about) The 53 nearly was cut back to E&C in 2022! One day it probably will end up being a E&C-Plumstead route, but at least the iconic route number will be kept at Woolwich & Blackheath, Lewisham lost the 36 and Crystal Palace lost the 2
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Post by WH241 on Apr 19, 2024 19:13:46 GMT
And still no X53….😔😢 This Thamesmead to NG route is utterly overkill, between Woolwich & NG there already 3 routes that covers this corridor; the 161, 472 & 180, the last route didn’t need to be changed that drastically but I’ve made my feelings on the 180 more than clear. One route has to go, you don’t need 4 routes over this corridor, you don’t even need 3 in the age of the Elizabeth line at Woolwich which has taken away demand for NG. Khan/TfL seem to have forgotten the whole original point of the 472’s existence in the first place, it replaced both the 272/X72 routes while taking a faster route between Thamesmead and Woolwich by avoiding Abbey Wood, Bostall Hill & Plumstead High Street which the old 272 route took. The Eltham to Streatham route, honestly don’t see how this can work, it would have to use the South Circular for at least some of it’s journey if not alot of it, and that road is notoriously congested at the best of times, personally I’d have a Thamesmead-Woolwich-Blackheath Sun Sands-Westhorne-Catford-Sydenham-Crystal Palace-Streatham route, this would be an express route for the 54, 122 & 202 routes, all three routes are busy and could do with some relief without any alterations to their existing routes, what I’d do instead is have a Orpington to Streatham route that would roughly cover the 227/358 routes. The “Bakerloop” bus, my thoughts on that is that TfL are basically kicking the rusted tin can that is the Bakerloo extension, further down the road to the 2040s/2050s, what was supposed to be a “temporary” fix suddenly becomes a permanent solution if you catch my drift. Not sure how successful a Wimbledon to Richmond route would be seeing as the train takes less than 35 minutes to traverse that corridor. All in all, a desperate vote grab by Khan. I'm still waiting for the return of the X15 As enthusiasts most of us seem to see what Khan is up to but wonder how many of the general public see through him or even notice all the PR about the proposed bus routes. I would have preferred him to say I am ring fencing £XX Million for new routes instead of actual route proposals.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 19, 2024 20:07:36 GMT
And still no X53….😔😢 This Thamesmead to NG route is utterly overkill, between Woolwich & NG there already 3 routes that covers this corridor; the 161, 472 & 180, the last route didn’t need to be changed that drastically but I’ve made my feelings on the 180 more than clear. One route has to go, you don’t need 4 routes over this corridor, you don’t even need 3 in the age of the Elizabeth line at Woolwich which has taken away demand for NG. Khan/TfL seem to have forgotten the whole original point of the 472’s existence in the first place, it replaced both the 272/X72 routes while taking a faster route between Thamesmead and Woolwich by avoiding Abbey Wood, Bostall Hill & Plumstead High Street which the old 272 route took. The Eltham to Streatham route, honestly don’t see how this can work, it would have to use the South Circular for at least some of it’s journey if not alot of it, and that road is notoriously congested at the best of times, personally I’d have a Thamesmead-Woolwich-Blackheath Sun Sands-Westhorne-Catford-Sydenham-Crystal Palace-Streatham route, this would be an express route for the 54, 122 & 202 routes, all three routes are busy and could do with some relief without any alterations to their existing routes, what I’d do instead is have a Orpington to Streatham route that would roughly cover the 227/358 routes. The “Bakerloop” bus, my thoughts on that is that TfL are basically kicking the rusted tin can that is the Bakerloo extension, further down the road to the 2040s/2050s, what was supposed to be a “temporary” fix suddenly becomes a permanent solution if you catch my drift. Not sure how successful a Wimbledon to Richmond route would be seeing as the train takes less than 35 minutes to traverse that corridor. All in all, a desperate vote grab by Khan. I'm still waiting for the return of the X15 As enthusiasts most of us seem to see what Khan is up to but wonder how many of the general public see through him or even notice all the PR about the proposed bus routes. I would have preferred him to say I am ring fencing £XX Million for new routes instead of actual route proposals. You'd find that saying something like that is not a vote winner. People want to see how changes will directly affect them. If you say £xx is for new bus routes people will dismiss it as they'll think that their locals won't get any benefit from it so won't be swayed. But if you say that the money will be used on a new express route through Rainham, a traditionally Tory area will probably have their antennas perk up in interest. You need to appeal to people directly to win votes.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 19, 2024 20:09:15 GMT
You they're still one move away from doing their desired cut which has stretched back from 1999 (you know which move I'm talking about) The 53 nearly was cut back to E&C in 2022! One day it probably will end up being a E&C-Plumstead route, but at least the iconic route number will be kept at Woolwich & Blackheath, Lewisham lost the 36 and Crystal Palace lost the 2 As soon as there was mention about X routes I did think the X53 could be a possibility with the 53 finally admitting defeat on reaching Central London with the X53 maintaing the link from the main stops and the 53/453 being the stopping services. Bit like the 607 and X140.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 19, 2024 22:35:54 GMT
There is a rumored consultation coming for Carshalton and this amendment on this new map (which does say draft I might add) may simply fuel that even more. What makes me think it's a legitimate proposal is that this could be there way of answering the excess capacity point someone mentioned (I'm not fully convinced there is one) as the SL5 is single decker operated as well as making the SL7 that bit more reliable. The Croydon to Sutton shouldn't wreck the SL5 - Croydon really is the only part where you'll meet traffic on the Croydon to Sutton part and I don't really see the service being any more overloaded than it already is - the trees probably won't be cut so hopefully longer single deckers are introduced to mitigate that. I wonder if as Croydon to Bromley is obviously shorter then Sutton to Heathrow if its planned that the SL5 would have a couple more stops along the route to effectively take away more 407 demand. Beddington Plough and the one by Wandle Park Tram might be considered as ones well used by the 407. Personally, I don't see new stops being added and I don't think it makes sense to remove the 407 from that section as I think the perfect balance is to have a stopper and a limited stop route running in tandem.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 20, 2024 8:12:21 GMT
And still no X53….😔😢 This Thamesmead to NG route is utterly overkill, between Woolwich & NG there already 3 routes that covers this corridor; the 161, 472 & 180, the last route didn’t need to be changed that drastically but I’ve made my feelings on the 180 more than clear. One route has to go, you don’t need 4 routes over this corridor, you don’t even need 3 in the age of the Elizabeth line at Woolwich which has taken away demand for NG. Khan/TfL seem to have forgotten the whole original point of the 472’s existence in the first place, it replaced both the 272/X72 routes while taking a faster route between Thamesmead and Woolwich by avoiding Abbey Wood, Bostall Hill & Plumstead High Street which the old 272 route took. The Eltham to Streatham route, honestly don’t see how this can work, it would have to use the South Circular for at least some of it’s journey if not alot of it, and that road is notoriously congested at the best of times, personally I’d have a Thamesmead-Woolwich-Blackheath Sun Sands-Westhorne-Catford-Sydenham-Crystal Palace-Streatham route, this would be an express route for the 54, 122 & 202 routes, all three routes are busy and could do with some relief without any alterations to their existing routes, what I’d do instead is have a Orpington to Streatham route that would roughly cover the 227/358 routes. The “Bakerloop” bus, my thoughts on that is that TfL are basically kicking the rusted tin can that is the Bakerloo extension, further down the road to the 2040s/2050s, what was supposed to be a “temporary” fix suddenly becomes a permanent solution if you catch my drift. Not sure how successful a Wimbledon to Richmond route would be seeing as the train takes less than 35 minutes to traverse that corridor. All in all, a desperate vote grab by Khan. I’m confused how this is a desperate vote grab by Khan when he has an almost 20 point lead ahead of the opposition? You can’t be telling me you actually think Susan Hall has a remote chance of winning the elections?
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Post by route53 on Apr 20, 2024 8:13:03 GMT
The 53 nearly was cut back to E&C in 2022! One day it probably will end up being a E&C-Plumstead route, but at least the iconic route number will be kept at Woolwich & Blackheath, Lewisham lost the 36 and Crystal Palace lost the 2 As soon as there was mention about X routes I did think the X53 could be a possibility with the 53 finally admitting defeat on reaching Central London with the X53 maintaing the link from the main stops and the 53/453 being the stopping services. Bit like the 607 and X140. An X53 running from Trafalgar Square to Thamesmead would be great, then you could have the 453 as it is now and have the 53 cut back to E&C as the stopping services. Would be far more useful than yet another route between North Greenwich & Woolwich 😒🙄
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Post by TB123 on Apr 20, 2024 8:16:40 GMT
And still no X53….😔😢 This Thamesmead to NG route is utterly overkill, between Woolwich & NG there already 3 routes that covers this corridor; the 161, 472 & 180, the last route didn’t need to be changed that drastically but I’ve made my feelings on the 180 more than clear. One route has to go, you don’t need 4 routes over this corridor, you don’t even need 3 in the age of the Elizabeth line at Woolwich which has taken away demand for NG. Khan/TfL seem to have forgotten the whole original point of the 472’s existence in the first place, it replaced both the 272/X72 routes while taking a faster route between Thamesmead and Woolwich by avoiding Abbey Wood, Bostall Hill & Plumstead High Street which the old 272 route took. The Eltham to Streatham route, honestly don’t see how this can work, it would have to use the South Circular for at least some of it’s journey if not alot of it, and that road is notoriously congested at the best of times, personally I’d have a Thamesmead-Woolwich-Blackheath Sun Sands-Westhorne-Catford-Sydenham-Crystal Palace-Streatham route, this would be an express route for the 54, 122 & 202 routes, all three routes are busy and could do with some relief without any alterations to their existing routes, what I’d do instead is have a Orpington to Streatham route that would roughly cover the 227/358 routes. The “Bakerloop” bus, my thoughts on that is that TfL are basically kicking the rusted tin can that is the Bakerloo extension, further down the road to the 2040s/2050s, what was supposed to be a “temporary” fix suddenly becomes a permanent solution if you catch my drift. Not sure how successful a Wimbledon to Richmond route would be seeing as the train takes less than 35 minutes to traverse that corridor. All in all, a desperate vote grab by Khan. I’m confused how this is a desperate vote grab by Khan when he has an almost 20 point lead ahead of the opposition? You can’t be telling me you actually think Susan Hall has a remote chance of winning the elections? The polls are always remarkably generous for Labour candidates. It's much tighter than the it looks. Personally I think it's great that a politician thinks rolling out better buses is a politically, environmentally and economically sound move. Boris talked the talk on this but didn't quite walk the walk.
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Post by route53 on Apr 20, 2024 8:16:43 GMT
And still no X53….😔😢 This Thamesmead to NG route is utterly overkill, between Woolwich & NG there already 3 routes that covers this corridor; the 161, 472 & 180, the last route didn’t need to be changed that drastically but I’ve made my feelings on the 180 more than clear. One route has to go, you don’t need 4 routes over this corridor, you don’t even need 3 in the age of the Elizabeth line at Woolwich which has taken away demand for NG. Khan/TfL seem to have forgotten the whole original point of the 472’s existence in the first place, it replaced both the 272/X72 routes while taking a faster route between Thamesmead and Woolwich by avoiding Abbey Wood, Bostall Hill & Plumstead High Street which the old 272 route took. The Eltham to Streatham route, honestly don’t see how this can work, it would have to use the South Circular for at least some of it’s journey if not alot of it, and that road is notoriously congested at the best of times, personally I’d have a Thamesmead-Woolwich-Blackheath Sun Sands-Westhorne-Catford-Sydenham-Crystal Palace-Streatham route, this would be an express route for the 54, 122 & 202 routes, all three routes are busy and could do with some relief without any alterations to their existing routes, what I’d do instead is have a Orpington to Streatham route that would roughly cover the 227/358 routes. The “Bakerloop” bus, my thoughts on that is that TfL are basically kicking the rusted tin can that is the Bakerloo extension, further down the road to the 2040s/2050s, what was supposed to be a “temporary” fix suddenly becomes a permanent solution if you catch my drift. Not sure how successful a Wimbledon to Richmond route would be seeing as the train takes less than 35 minutes to traverse that corridor. All in all, a desperate vote grab by Khan. I’m confused how this is a desperate vote grab by Khan when he has an almost 20 point lead ahead of the opposition? You can’t be telling me you actually think Susan Hall has a remote chance of winning the elections? Despite a 20 point lead, which closer to the election day could close up I am not seeing as much enthusiasm for Khan as we saw in 2016 and 2021, the whole Superloop network initially was to appease outer Londoners who are against ULEZ, had it not been for ULEZ we wouldn’t be having this discussion. In fact in a time where the Tories are at the lowest point yet, Khan should be way ahead, all the mayor candidates are quite frankly rubbish, London deserves better than Khan, Hall etc etc.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 20, 2024 8:34:07 GMT
I’m confused how this is a desperate vote grab by Khan when he has an almost 20 point lead ahead of the opposition? You can’t be telling me you actually think Susan Hall has a remote chance of winning the elections? Despite a 20 point lead, which closer to the election day could close up I am not seeing as much enthusiasm for Khan as we saw in 2016 and 2021, the whole Superloop network initially was to appease outer Londoners who are against ULEZ, had it not been for ULEZ we wouldn’t be having this discussion. In fact in a time where the Tories are at the lowest point yet, Khan should be way ahead, all the mayor candidates are quite frankly rubbish, London deserves better than Khan, Hall etc etc. I totally agree with you that London deserves better than both of them, I think Susan Hall would be the least worst option but I'd say that about just about anyone else that was up against Sadiq Khan, I just think he needs to go.
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Post by rif153 on Apr 20, 2024 12:00:13 GMT
Looking at the proposals for my neck of the woods its clearly more style over substance for this mayor. As others have said this proposed X65 won't be much faster than the 65 given there's one lane most o the way from Ealing to Kingston and little opportuntiy to overtake. I wouldn't be surprised if the 65 is split as a result of these changes as the result has become virtually inoperable. Can't wait until the X65 (or SL15 knowing this mayor's stupid PR) is stuck in the same traffic behind a regular bus on Kew Bridge. Some proper bus priority is really badly needed as it can take ages just to get over the Thames.
I'm curious to see what this express H91 will look like. To be faster than the regular route it needs to go via the A4 the whole way but this obviously comes at the cost of serving the centre of Chiswick, thus making the route less useful. I know there were some calls for an express route from Hammersmith to Heathrow via Chiswick, Brentford and Hounslow which I always thought were a bit optimistic but I wonder where this new route will end up in Hounslow. Hounslow West station isn't a good destination in itself it needs to go to the town centre really. I think there is potential to do more with its western end perhaps sending it to Feltham or Heathrow.
I share others scepticism about this express route around the North Circular, again I'm not convinced it will be much faster. I hope it goes via the Uxbridge Road so it can use double deckers and serve Ealing Common thus catering to a catchment there for whom driving is otherwise much more convenient.
Richmond-Wimbleon express route won't be much faster due to the horrendous South Ciruclar congestion. Obviously there is SWR too but I know a fair few people in South West London who find SWR such a nightmare that chose the bus instead
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Post by vjaska on Apr 20, 2024 13:33:16 GMT
As soon as there was mention about X routes I did think the X53 could be a possibility with the 53 finally admitting defeat on reaching Central London with the X53 maintaing the link from the main stops and the 53/453 being the stopping services. Bit like the 607 and X140. An X53 running from Trafalgar Square to Thamesmead would be great, then you could have the 453 as it is now and have the 53 cut back to E&C as the stopping services. Would be far more useful than yet another route between North Greenwich & Woolwich 😒🙄 I disagree - without significant easing of congestion and/or decent priority through bottlenecks being implemented, there is no point in running routes like the X53.
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