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Post by vjaska on Oct 4, 2024 16:37:53 GMT
As a user the 463 I can confirm it definitely feels like it's in sections, Coulsdon to The Mount (busy), then The Mount to Woodcote (not busy), then Woodcote to Therapia Lane (busy) then Therapia Lane to Eastfields (not busy) then Eastfields to Pollards Hill (busy), id personally reintroduce the S5 between Wallington and Pollards Hill still, but look for somewhere else to extend it rather than Carshalton Beeches, I worry those roads might be too small for 9m's (the 463 itself isn't even 9m, which is a giant travesty!) Then for the 463 I would do something far more interesting, there was once a proposal for it to go to Netherne-On-The-Hill, I'd bring this to light and give them a connection to London, reducing car usage more. Id also send the 463 down to Hackbridge for a terminal, I think an entirely new route would be the best to serve for the Carshalton Beeches area, maybe name it the 454 in honour of the 154. But then again, maybe the 463 can stay how it is, it's survived this long without changes, maybe this ' S5 ' could serve Carshalton Beeches estates before moving onto Wallington and then Beddington, perhaps taking over the S4 to Waddon Marsh where the S4 could terminate at Beddington ASDA and be extended back to St Helier or even straight the way down back to Morden! I don't think Netherne would be a suitable extension for the 463 to be honest, a 3bph service would be overkill and it would mean nothing longer than 9m buses would ever be possible on the route. To serve Netherne, I'd suggest something like a half hourly, one bus shuttle from Netherne to Coulsdon and back (with no stand time in Coulsdon), running out of Netherne, up the A23, past Coulsdon South station, same loop of Coulsdon as the 404 does (up the A23 and then back down the high street), back past Coulsdon South station, down the A23 and into Netherne. This would almost certainly need some funding from Surrey, as it would be financially unviable otherwise. I'm actually not too sure if Netherne is even suitable for 9m buses either, so I'd suggest using something a similar size to the Solo SR's the H2/H3 use. I'm not too sure Hackbridge needs any additional routes either, the 463 going up there would probably duplicate either the 127 or 151 depending on routing, and as far as I know the new estates are within 400m of an existing 127 or 151 stop. If something replaced the S4's extension, I would definitely agree with extending the S4 from Sutton up to St Helier or Morden via the 470, this would also help the stand space issues in Sutton. I would have the 293 replace the Morden to Colliers Wood section of the 470, with additional stops added on Merantun Way near some new developments, with the route getting double deckers and the DXEs moving to the 411. This section might have low demand at the moment but this would increase with a higher frequency and more bus stops. A particular section of Woodplace Lane looks quite problematic judging from Google Maps, the rest of it could get a 9.0m bus down there without too much issue as the section alongside the fields has passing spots |
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Post by londonbuses on Oct 4, 2024 16:46:29 GMT
I don't think Netherne would be a suitable extension for the 463 to be honest, a 3bph service would be overkill and it would mean nothing longer than 9m buses would ever be possible on the route. To serve Netherne, I'd suggest something like a half hourly, one bus shuttle from Netherne to Coulsdon and back (with no stand time in Coulsdon), running out of Netherne, up the A23, past Coulsdon South station, same loop of Coulsdon as the 404 does (up the A23 and then back down the high street), back past Coulsdon South station, down the A23 and into Netherne. This would almost certainly need some funding from Surrey, as it would be financially unviable otherwise. I'm actually not too sure if Netherne is even suitable for 9m buses either, so I'd suggest using something a similar size to the Solo SR's the H2/H3 use. I'm not too sure Hackbridge needs any additional routes either, the 463 going up there would probably duplicate either the 127 or 151 depending on routing, and as far as I know the new estates are within 400m of an existing 127 or 151 stop. If something replaced the S4's extension, I would definitely agree with extending the S4 from Sutton up to St Helier or Morden via the 470, this would also help the stand space issues in Sutton. I would have the 293 replace the Morden to Colliers Wood section of the 470, with additional stops added on Merantun Way near some new developments, with the route getting double deckers and the DXEs moving to the 411. This section might have low demand at the moment but this would increase with a higher frequency and more bus stops. A particular section of Woodplace Lane looks quite problematic judging from Google Maps, the rest of it could get a 9.0m bus down there without too much issue as the section alongside the fields has passing spots I wouldn't have the bus serve Woodplace Lane at all, I would have it go down the A23 following the 405 and then use Netherne Drive to access the Village, and terminate on the loop on Upper Lodge Way. |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 4, 2024 17:00:35 GMT
The 463 has changed several times since it's introduction in 1998 - back then it was a Coulsdon, Red Lion to Wallington Station route replacing part of the old commercial Route 301 (the 301 ran from Coulsdon would then run up to Croydon via Purley & South Croydon). In 2002, it was extended to Eastfields replacing part of the S5, terminating right where the current station is by the level crossing and in 2009, it was extended to Coulsdon South Station and re-routed in Eastfields to approach via Tamworth Lane and then continue onto Pollards Hill to stand with the 152 & 255, giving us today's routing. A school journey was also introduced in 2010 and was re-numbered 633 in 2016. Going back to the 157 specifically, the route itself highlights a problem that all of South London, not just Sutton, has and that is a severe lack of east to west links. The 37 & 157 are the two notable exceptions and even then, the 37 doesn't go as far as the 157 does for obvious reasons surrounding congestion, among other things. It's something that needs to be looked into more, especially when South London relies far more on the bus network than the other three areas given the Underground only penetrates as far as Morden, Brixton & North Greenwich currently. By ' this long without changes ', I did specifically mean post-2009, should have clarified that, but for a route that's as dexterous and long it's a miracle it hasn't tried to be tampered with. As for the 157, I think it could easily be justified for having a 8-10 minute schedule with the links and connections it serves and gives to the South, the 119 in my opinion is in a similar boat, but considering the fact that it's 24 hours, it's certainly got more going for it despite it having less important connections. South London needs some love really, unfortunately we're the neglected part of the city except for when it's discussing about the SL7.. Does the 157 really need that level of service? Not from what I see mostly the Crystal Palace end of the route, the Morden end may be busier. The 119 had a reduction a few years ago and I can't see it being increased now there's the SL5. |
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Post by PGAT on Oct 4, 2024 17:01:55 GMT
By ' this long without changes ', I did specifically mean post-2009, should have clarified that, but for a route that's as dexterous and long it's a miracle it hasn't tried to be tampered with. As for the 157, I think it could easily be justified for having a 8-10 minute schedule with the links and connections it serves and gives to the South, the 119 in my opinion is in a similar boat, but considering the fact that it's 24 hours, it's certainly got more going for it despite it having less important connections. South London needs some love really, unfortunately we're the neglected part of the city except for when it's discussing about the SL7.. Does the 157 really need that level of service? Not from what I see mostly the Crystal Palace end of the route, the Morden end may be busier. The 119 had a reduction a few years ago and I can't see it being increased there's the SL5. 5bph is def inadequate for the 157 although every 8 mins might be overkill |
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Post by abellion on Oct 4, 2024 17:09:57 GMT
By ' this long without changes ', I did specifically mean post-2009, should have clarified that, but for a route that's as dexterous and long it's a miracle it hasn't tried to be tampered with. As for the 157, I think it could easily be justified for having a 8-10 minute schedule with the links and connections it serves and gives to the South, the 119 in my opinion is in a similar boat, but considering the fact that it's 24 hours, it's certainly got more going for it despite it having less important connections. South London needs some love really, unfortunately we're the neglected part of the city except for when it's discussing about the SL7.. Does the 157 really need that level of service? Not from what I see mostly the Crystal Palace end of the route, the Morden end may be busier. The 119 had a reduction a few years ago and I can't see it being increased now there's the SL5. It has potential to get busy towards CP from Morden Station and West Croydon, and then also a wide variety of local links, I think an increase would be justifiable however I’ve never found it to be particularly busy at the Crystal Palace end either as well as later in the day apart from leaving Morden Station and West Croydon as I said before. |
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Post by bluepuffy on Oct 4, 2024 17:20:09 GMT
By ' this long without changes ', I did specifically mean post-2009, should have clarified that, but for a route that's as dexterous and long it's a miracle it hasn't tried to be tampered with. As for the 157, I think it could easily be justified for having a 8-10 minute schedule with the links and connections it serves and gives to the South, the 119 in my opinion is in a similar boat, but considering the fact that it's 24 hours, it's certainly got more going for it despite it having less important connections. South London needs some love really, unfortunately we're the neglected part of the city except for when it's discussing about the SL7.. Does the 157 really need that level of service? Not from what I see mostly the Crystal Palace end of the route, the Morden end may be busier. The 119 had a reduction a few years ago and I can't see it being increased now there's the SL5. Crystal Palace area gets less passenger numbers due to the fact that there aren't many people going from West Croydon to Crystal Palace, especially with the fact that the overground stops just at Anerley where they can pick up any other bus to Crystal Palace, but from around Norwood Junction to Morden, it loads pretty consistently, with the largest load area probably being (from experience) the West Croydon to St Helier run, notable for the fact that this is where the 154 also runs, really both could have an increase but we'll just have to see if TfL give a care for South London anymore for the next decade or not. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 4, 2024 17:41:17 GMT
Does the 157 really need that level of service? Not from what I see mostly the Crystal Palace end of the route, the Morden end may be busier. The 119 had a reduction a few years ago and I can't see it being increased now there's the SL5. Crystal Palace area gets less passenger numbers due to the fact that there aren't many people going from West Croydon to Crystal Palace, especially with the fact that the underground stops just at Anerley where they can pick up any other bus to Crystal Palace, but from around Norwood Junction to Morden, it loads pretty consistently, with the largest load area probably being (from experience) the West Croydon to St Helier run, notable for the fact that this is where the 154 also runs, really both could have an increase but we'll just have to see if TfL give a care for South London anymore for the next decade or not. Personally I always thought that 1998 proposal to switch the 157 and 197 beyond Norwood Junction was a good idea. I think CP would have done better with a link to Croydon Town centre proper as opposed to the top of the town via West Croydon and it would have allowed the 157 to be a bit shorter and run every 10 mins. The 157 definitely has a demand out of Morden and one aswell at times of day from West Croydon back to Wallington. |
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Post by londonbuses on Oct 4, 2024 17:43:20 GMT
Does the 157 really need that level of service? Not from what I see mostly the Crystal Palace end of the route, the Morden end may be busier. The 119 had a reduction a few years ago and I can't see it being increased now there's the SL5. Crystal Palace area gets less passenger numbers due to the fact that there aren't many people going from West Croydon to Crystal Palace, especially with the fact that the underground stops just at Anerley where they can pick up any other bus to Crystal Palace, but from around Norwood Junction to Morden, it loads pretty consistently, with the largest load area probably being (from experience) the West Croydon to St Helier run, notable for the fact that this is where the 154 also runs, really both could have an increase but we'll just have to see if TfL give a care for South London anymore for the next decade or not. The 154 received a frequency increase in (I think) 2019 to 6bph, and I would say thats about right for the route. The 157 should ideally be increased up to 6bph, which would match the 154 and would be ideal for the route. Other routes in the Sutton and Croydon areas which need increasing include the 213 and 450 which need their cuts to be reversed, the SL7 which needs to run at 5bph, and the S2 could even do with an increase to 4bph (which really shows what an improved service can do!). Some routes in the area such as the 151 and 466 are probably slightly overbussed, and could be dropped down to 5bph and 6bph respectively. |
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Post by bluepuffy on Oct 4, 2024 17:50:50 GMT
Crystal Palace area gets less passenger numbers due to the fact that there aren't many people going from West Croydon to Crystal Palace, especially with the fact that the underground stops just at Anerley where they can pick up any other bus to Crystal Palace, but from around Norwood Junction to Morden, it loads pretty consistently, with the largest load area probably being (from experience) the West Croydon to St Helier run, notable for the fact that this is where the 154 also runs, really both could have an increase but we'll just have to see if TfL give a care for South London anymore for the next decade or not. The 154 received a frequency increase in (I think) 2019 to 6bph, and I would say thats about right for the route. The 157 should ideally be increased up to 6bph, which would match the 154 and would be ideal for the route. Other routes in the Sutton and Croydon areas which need increasing include the 213 and 450 which need their cuts to be reversed, the SL7 which needs to run at 5bph, and the S2 could even do with an increase to 4bph (which really shows what an improved service can do!). Some routes in the area such as the 151 and 466 are probably slightly overbussed, and could be dropped down to 5bph and 6bph respectively. I highly disagree with the 151 being overbussed, I use it regularly every day at all hours and it is consistently busy between Cheam and Hackbridge, sometimes even all the way to Wallington. Elderly passengers rely on such a consistent service for their shopping as well, then at peak hours theres the school rush where the 151 itself struggles already. The 466 I'm less sure about personally, but considering the 60, 64 and 130 follow it pretty well, I would say it could be dropped to 5bph without harming things all too much. |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 4, 2024 17:51:53 GMT
Crystal Palace area gets less passenger numbers due to the fact that there aren't many people going from West Croydon to Crystal Palace, especially with the fact that the underground stops just at Anerley where they can pick up any other bus to Crystal Palace, but from around Norwood Junction to Morden, it loads pretty consistently, with the largest load area probably being (from experience) the West Croydon to St Helier run, notable for the fact that this is where the 154 also runs, really both could have an increase but we'll just have to see if TfL give a care for South London anymore for the next decade or not. Personally I always thought that 1998 proposal to switch the 157 and 197 beyond Norwood Junction was a good idea. I think CP would have done better with a link to Croydon Town centre proper as opposed to the top of the town via West Croydon and it would have allowed the 157 to be a bit shorter and run every 10 mins. The 157 definitely has a demand out of Morden and one aswell at times of day from West Croydon back to Wallington. A link to Crystal Palace from the Woodside/Addiscombe area would certainly be useful and there was a suggestion of extending the 312 there via South Norwood Hill and Church Road. |
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Post by bluepuffy on Oct 4, 2024 17:55:27 GMT
Personally I always thought that 1998 proposal to switch the 157 and 197 beyond Norwood Junction was a good idea. I think CP would have done better with a link to Croydon Town centre proper as opposed to the top of the town via West Croydon and it would have allowed the 157 to be a bit shorter and run every 10 mins. The 157 definitely has a demand out of Morden and one aswell at times of day from West Croydon back to Wallington. A link to Crystal Palace from the Woodside/Addiscombe area would certainly be useful and there was a suggestion of extending the 312 there via South Norwood Hill and Church Road. Could the 130 be cut back to Selhurst Park then directed right on Whitehorse Lane, then South Norwood Hill, following the 249 down Church Road to Crystal Palace? |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 4, 2024 18:06:43 GMT
A link to Crystal Palace from the Woodside/Addiscombe area would certainly be useful and there was a suggestion of extending the 312 there via South Norwood Hill and Church Road. Could the 130 be cut back to Selhurst Park then directed right on Whitehorse Lane, then South Norwood Hill, following the 249 down Church Road to Crystal Palace? Possibly but then the link to Thornton Heath is lost. |
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Post by bluepuffy on Oct 4, 2024 18:16:40 GMT
Could the 130 be cut back to Selhurst Park then directed right on Whitehorse Lane, then South Norwood Hill, following the 249 down Church Road to Crystal Palace? Possibly but then the link to Thornton Heath is lost. I doubt people will be too pressed about losing Thornton Heath, they're still connected to the Sainsbury's, the 468 is fairly frequent and can take them into Thornton Heath and Crystal Palace has far more useful connections into Central London, the only thing they'd be missing out on is Thornton Heath Station but Selhurst is close enough of a bus swap for it to be a low issue. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 4, 2024 18:41:22 GMT
Personally I always thought that 1998 proposal to switch the 157 and 197 beyond Norwood Junction was a good idea. I think CP would have done better with a link to Croydon Town centre proper as opposed to the top of the town via West Croydon and it would have allowed the 157 to be a bit shorter and run every 10 mins. The 157 definitely has a demand out of Morden and one aswell at times of day from West Croydon back to Wallington. A link to Crystal Palace from the Woodside/Addiscombe area would certainly be useful and there was a suggestion of extending the 312 there via South Norwood Hill and Church Road. Probably off the cards now the 312 has extended at the other end. Length wise might be an issue but also the restriction to SDs aswell. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 4, 2024 18:55:57 GMT
Crystal Palace area gets less passenger numbers due to the fact that there aren't many people going from West Croydon to Crystal Palace, especially with the fact that the underground stops just at Anerley where they can pick up any other bus to Crystal Palace, but from around Norwood Junction to Morden, it loads pretty consistently, with the largest load area probably being (from experience) the West Croydon to St Helier run, notable for the fact that this is where the 154 also runs, really both could have an increase but we'll just have to see if TfL give a care for South London anymore for the next decade or not. The 154 received a frequency increase in (I think) 2019 to 6bph, and I would say thats about right for the route. The 157 should ideally be increased up to 6bph, which would match the 154 and would be ideal for the route. Other routes in the Sutton and Croydon areas which need increasing include the 213 and 450 which need their cuts to be reversed, the SL7 which needs to run at 5bph, and the S2 could even do with an increase to 4bph (which really shows what an improved service can do!). Some routes in the area such as the 151 and 466 are probably slightly overbussed, and could be dropped down to 5bph and 6bph respectively. I disagree about the 151, its frequency definitely matches the demand. As for the 213 it doesn’t need to be fully restored, I’d say a minor increase back to 16 would be great although right now it’s PVR is perfectly matching things. Since the schools went back I have only had one journey refuse to take passengers and that was the day of the A3 flooding so buses were delayed. Traffic has dramatically improved since Covid in the major pinch point of Worcester Park beyond exceptional events. I don’t think the SL7 needs another increase, the existing frequency is fine but it just needs to be managed better to ensure buses are actually running 15 minutes apart, too many times since the increase have I experienced large gaps or buses running very close together. The S2 could do with an increase, it is very well loaded from my experiences and 5bph would definitely be well used. |
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