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Post by londonbuses on Apr 24, 2023 15:21:45 GMT
Nowadays, Sundays are not as quiet as they used to be many years ago, and transport usage has increased and isn't too far off the usage on Saturdays now. The Sunday service on a lot of routes is very poor, and on some routes results in buses being much busier than on a Saturday. Improving this isn't too difficult as it obviously doesn't require any PVR increases.
I think Sunday frequencies should not go below a certain level of the Monday to Saturday frequency:
>9bph Mon-Sat no less than 6bph on Sunday.
7-8bph Mon-Sat no less than 5bph on Sunday.
5-6bph Mon-Sat no less than 4bph on Sunday.
4bph Mon-Sat no less than 3bph on Sunday.
3bph Mon-Sat no less than 2bph on Sunday.
Therefore these routes should have frequency increases on Sundays:
33, 35, 80, 212, 248, 450, 468, D6, EL2 - Sunday frequency increased from 4bph to 5bph (these routes run at 7.5 or 8bph on Monday to Saturday).
66, 103, 126, 151, 175, 193, 247, 256, 307, 368, 433, EL3, U2, W19 - Sunday frequency increased from 3bph to 4bph (these routes run at 6bph on Monday to Saturday).
47, 50, 89, 95, 116, 118, 128, 130, 150, 152, 157, 165, 179, 186, 194, 196, 197, 198, 206, 217, 226, 232, 234, 251, 255, 275, 284, 286, 289, 294, 306, 312, 320, 325, 330, 340, 358, 365, 394, 403, 407, 415, 419, 487, 490, 493, D8, E5, E7, E9, H2, H20, H22, P12, R11, U3, U5, W5 - Sunday frequency increased from 3bph to 4bph (these routes run at 5bph on Monday to Saturday).
314, 376, R9 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 4bph (these routes run at 5bph on Monday to Saturday).
20, 258, 296, 299, 357, 370, 379, 382, 401, 405, 413, 428, 462, B16, U1, W9, W13 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 3bph (these routes run at 4bph on Monday to Saturday).
117, 203, 423, 482 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 3bph (these routes run at 3bph on Monday to Saturday but are by far the most used routes that run at 3bph).
246, 481, R4, U9 - Sunday frequency increased from 1bph to 2bph.
K4, K5, S3, S4 - Sunday service running at 2bph added.
470 - Evening and Sunday service running at 2bph added.
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 24, 2023 15:26:35 GMT
Improving this isn't too difficult as it obviously doesn't require any PVR increases. . Yep - easy peasy. Just get more staff to work on a Sunday whether they like it or not. A long post totally and utterly not thought through even slightly. Sorry. |
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Post by abellion on Apr 24, 2023 15:38:08 GMT
Nowadays, Sundays are not as quiet as they used to be many years ago, and transport usage has increased and isn't too far off the usage on Saturdays now. The Sunday service on a lot of routes is very poor, and on some routes results in buses being much busier than on a Saturday. Improving this isn't too difficult as it obviously doesn't require any PVR increases. I think Sunday frequencies should not go below a certain level of the Monday to Saturday frequency: >9bph Mon-Sat no less than 6bph on Sunday. 7-8bph Mon-Sat no less than 5bph on Sunday. 5-6bph Mon-Sat no less than 4bph on Sunday. 4bph Mon-Sat no less than 3bph on Sunday. 3bph Mon-Sat no less than 2bph on Sunday. Therefore these routes should have frequency increases on Sundays: 33, 35, 80, 212, 248, 450, 468, D6, EL2 - Sunday frequency increased from 4bph to 5bph (these routes run at 7.5 or 8bph on Monday to Saturday). 66, 103, 126, 151, 175, 193, 247, 256, 307, 368, 433, EL3, U2, W19 - Sunday frequency increased from 3bph to 4bph (these routes run at 6bph on Monday to Saturday). 47, 50, 89, 95, 116, 118, 128, 130, 150, 152, 157, 165, 179, 186, 194, 196, 197, 198, 206, 217, 226, 232, 234, 251, 255, 275, 284, 286, 289, 294, 306, 312, 320, 325, 330, 340, 358, 365, 394, 403, 407, 415, 419, 487, 490, 493, D8, E5, E7, E9, H2, H20, H22, P12, R11, U3, U5, W5 - Sunday frequency increased from 3bph to 4bph (these routes run at 5bph on Monday to Saturday). 314, 376, R9 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 4bph (these routes run at 5bph on Monday to Saturday). 20, 258, 296, 299, 357, 370, 379, 382, 401, 405, 413, 428, 462, B16, U1, W9, W13 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 3bph (these routes run at 4bph on Monday to Saturday). 117, 203, 423, 482 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 3bph (these routes run at 3bph on Monday to Saturday but are by far the most used routes that run at 3bph). 246, 481, R4, U9 - Sunday frequency increased from 1bph to 2bph. K4, K5, S3, S4 - Sunday service running at 2bph added. 470 - Evening and Sunday service running at 2bph added. I'd agree with increasing some Sunday frequencies but all of this will add up and be expensive. When I first rode the 47 on a Sunday and saw the frequency I was shocked (yet two buses left Shoreditch a minute apart leading to three southbound buses from bunching through Bermondsey!) and looking at this list now there are even more surprising ones. |
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Post by VMH2537 on Apr 24, 2023 17:30:53 GMT
I agree and see the benefits it will bring on improving Sunday services. Though bare in mind, there are current legislation in place limiting opening hours for trading shops and services, affecting the overall demand for bus services. Buses are seen more busy as less capacity is provided meaning those who use it per hour during the weekday will pull onto the lower buses provided.
In the meantime, only reasonable steps I could see is increasing Sunday frequency from half hourly to 20 minutes at minimum for weekday 15 minute services as you suggested as well introducing new Sunday operations for Monday to Saturday services.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 24, 2023 17:42:50 GMT
I agree and see the benefits it will bring on improving Sunday services. Though bare in mind, there are current legislation in place limiting opening hours for trading shops and services, affecting the overall demand for bus services. Buses are seen more busy as less capacity is provided meaning those who use it per hour during the weekday will pull onto the lower buses provided. In the meantime, only reasonable steps I could see is increasing Sunday frequency from half hourly to 20 minutes at minimum for weekday 15 minute services as you suggested as well introducing new Sunday operations for Monday to Saturday services. Once the Sutton changes happen the S4 will gain a Sunday service and part of the 470 will aswell that becomes the S2. That would leave the 470 and S3 as the only 2 Monday to Saturdays services in that area and none left in Croydon or Bromley now either. |
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Post by markyl on Apr 24, 2023 18:19:43 GMT
I agree and see the benefits it will bring on improving Sunday services. Though bare in mind, there are current legislation in place limiting opening hours for trading shops and services, affecting the overall demand for bus services. Buses are seen more busy as less capacity is provided meaning those who use it per hour during the weekday will pull onto the lower buses provided. In the meantime, only reasonable steps I could see is increasing Sunday frequency from half hourly to 20 minutes at minimum for weekday 15 minute services as you suggested as well introducing new Sunday operations for Monday to Saturday services. Once the Sutton changes happen the S4 will gain a Sunday service and part of the 470 will aswell that becomes the S2. That would leave the 470 and S3 as the only 2 Monday to Saturdays services in that area and none left in Croydon or Bromley now either. R2 R5/R10 R8 in Bromley Borough … have no Sunday service. |
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Post by danorak on Apr 24, 2023 18:35:18 GMT
Not easy to achieve but I do agree that Sunday services on many routes are now inadequate: it's a hugely popular shopping day, many 'new' churches have sprung up in unusual places, leisure has soared and too often bus priority does not apply. Ever seen a 53 along the Old Kent Road on Sundays?
There's no easy solution but making all bus lanes operate on Sundays and applying parking restrictions would help. I wonder if we need to move to a more nuanced timetable now that Mondays and Fridays are less busy, for example a Friday/Saturday/Monday and a Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday one, with Sundays remaining separate but better than now.
I'm not religious but I do regret the loss of quiet Sundays. That said, there is no shortage of people willing to work in shops and so on on Sundays now, so over time it should be possible to address the issues.
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Post by southlondon413 on Apr 24, 2023 18:59:39 GMT
Not easy to achieve but I do agree that Sunday services on many routes are now inadequate: it's a hugely popular shopping day, many 'new' churches have sprung up in unusual places, leisure has soared and too often bus priority does not apply. Ever seen a 53 along the Old Kent Road on Sundays? There's no easy solution but making all bus lanes operate on Sundays and applying parking restrictions would help. I wonder if we need to move to a more nuanced timetable now that Mondays and Fridays are less busy, for example a Friday/Saturday/Monday and a Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday one, with Sundays remaining separate but better than now. I'm not religious but I do regret the loss of quiet Sundays. That said, there is no shortage of people willing to work in shops and so on on Sundays now, so over time it should be possible to address the issues. But there is a shortage of shop workers, a shrinking number of shops for them to work in and cost cutting in supermarkets to reduce staff numbers through attrition. It’s been a strong discussion point since the pandemic started. I know several people who used their retail furlough time to study and eventually left retail for better paying Monday to Friday jobs. But their positions were never filled and merely eliminated. |
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Post by greenboy on Apr 24, 2023 21:35:29 GMT
There is scope for improving some Sunday frequencies but much of the demand is from leisure activities which are weather dependent and more Sunday work being mandated might make staff recruitment more difficult.
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Post by ronnie on Apr 24, 2023 22:21:10 GMT
Nowadays, Sundays are not as quiet as they used to be many years ago, and transport usage has increased and isn't too far off the usage on Saturdays now. The Sunday service on a lot of routes is very poor, and on some routes results in buses being much busier than on a Saturday. Improving this isn't too difficult as it obviously doesn't require any PVR increases. I think Sunday frequencies should not go below a certain level of the Monday to Saturday frequency: >9bph Mon-Sat no less than 6bph on Sunday. 7-8bph Mon-Sat no less than 5bph on Sunday. 5-6bph Mon-Sat no less than 4bph on Sunday. 4bph Mon-Sat no less than 3bph on Sunday. 3bph Mon-Sat no less than 2bph on Sunday. Therefore these routes should have frequency increases on Sundays: 33, 35, 80, 212, 248, 450, 468, D6, EL2 - Sunday frequency increased from 4bph to 5bph (these routes run at 7.5 or 8bph on Monday to Saturday). 66, 103, 126, 151, 175, 193, 247, 256, 307, 368, 433, EL3, U2, W19 - Sunday frequency increased from 3bph to 4bph (these routes run at 6bph on Monday to Saturday). 47, 50, 89, 95, 116, 118, 128, 130, 150, 152, 157, 165, 179, 186, 194, 196, 197, 198, 206, 217, 226, 232, 234, 251, 255, 275, 284, 286, 289, 294, 306, 312, 320, 325, 330, 340, 358, 365, 394, 403, 407, 415, 419, 487, 490, 493, D8, E5, E7, E9, H2, H20, H22, P12, R11, U3, U5, W5 - Sunday frequency increased from 3bph to 4bph (these routes run at 5bph on Monday to Saturday). 314, 376, R9 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 4bph (these routes run at 5bph on Monday to Saturday). 20, 258, 296, 299, 357, 370, 379, 382, 401, 405, 413, 428, 462, B16, U1, W9, W13 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 3bph (these routes run at 4bph on Monday to Saturday). 117, 203, 423, 482 - Sunday frequency increased from 2bph to 3bph (these routes run at 3bph on Monday to Saturday but are by far the most used routes that run at 3bph). 246, 481, R4, U9 - Sunday frequency increased from 1bph to 2bph. K4, K5, S3, S4 - Sunday service running at 2bph added. 470 - Evening and Sunday service running at 2bph added. Think it will need to be a bit more bespoke than one size fits all. Some corridors will be busy so need a boost. Others will be quiet |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 25, 2023 8:01:02 GMT
I think another issue to consider is the fact that Sunday frequency is also down to driver availability as opposed to demand.
Staffing is already and issue and staff have the legal right to request Sunday's off should they need it.
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Post by snowman on Apr 25, 2023 8:46:16 GMT
I'm not religious but I do regret the loss of quiet Sundays. That said, there is no shortage of people willing to work in shops and so on on Sundays now, so over time it should be possible to address the issues. When I had a job in supermarket (1981-84) didn't mind the rare Sunday when we put out seasonal goods, used to get 12 hours pay for about 6 hours work. But that is the problem with Sundays, unless they have found gullible new employees who will work Sundays as a compulsory day at standard pay, it is traditionally done with voluntary overtime at double pay. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Apr 25, 2023 9:00:24 GMT
I'm not religious but I do regret the loss of quiet Sundays. That said, there is no shortage of people willing to work in shops and so on on Sundays now, so over time it should be possible to address the issues. When I had a job in supermarket (1981-84) didn't mind the rare Sunday when we put out seasonal goods, used to get 12 hours pay for about 6 hours work. But that is the problem with Sundays, unless they have found gullible new employees who will work Sundays as a compulsory day at standard pay, it is traditionally done with voluntary overtime at double pay. Not anymore. A lot of employers have eliminated double pay on Sundays for new hires and they make it part of the working week now, those who still get are slowly retiring or being pushed to weekdays to reduce costs. Wilko, for example, used to do double pay Sundays and 1.5 Saturdays but they eliminated the perk years ago. When I worked at Boots, I did 1/4 Sundays, but I only did 11-5 on a 7.5hrs pay. New hires, who started after me, had to do the full 9-6.30 day. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Apr 25, 2023 9:31:58 GMT
When I had a job in supermarket (1981-84) didn't mind the rare Sunday when we put out seasonal goods, used to get 12 hours pay for about 6 hours work. But that is the problem with Sundays, unless they have found gullible new employees who will work Sundays as a compulsory day at standard pay, it is traditionally done with voluntary overtime at double pay. Not anymore. A lot of employers have eliminated double pay on Sundays for new hires and they make it part of the working week now, those who still get are slowly retiring or being pushed to weekdays to reduce costs. Wilko, for example, used to do double pay Sundays and 1.5 Saturdays but they eliminated the perk years ago. When I worked at Boots, I did 1/4 Sundays, but I only did 11-5 on a 7.5hrs pay. New hires, who started after me, had to do the full 9-6.30 day. Waitrose used to do double pay on Sunday's but then scrapped that for new employees years back |
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Post by MKAY315 on Apr 25, 2023 13:19:42 GMT
Though this is a bus related forum in the trains industry most TOC's are Sundays inside. What that means is they count Sundays as a working day. Unless it's changed then only the drivers from Overground on the Liverpool Street to Chingford, Cheshunt and Enfield Town are on the Sundays outside contract and a handful of TOCs. Everywhere else is inside which is sad.
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