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Post by DT 11 on Oct 31, 2023 7:54:44 GMT
This will imply that Wood Green will have 2 routes to Trafalgar Square - 29 and 91 Overall ok (not my patch of London) although I would have kept the 123 to Wood Green. Why not keep the 91 till Turnpike Lane (as 91/232 will have a common section anyway) and keep the 123 to Wood Green? Very similar to 194 & 450 where both routes split up for the entire route too. 91 extension is a good move I have always though Crouch End was an odd terminus. In relation to other comments in relation to the 91/N91 it certainly does put WN in a good position to run the route with Electrics. Not too familiar with the area as a whole but cutting the 123 to Turnpike Lane Station will not do too much I would say as there are plenty of buses between Turnpike Lane and Wood Green. Personally I would cut the 67 to Turnpike Lane Station instead of the 123 or as suggested to extend the 67 to North Finchley. This 123 cut I think is cutting routes for the sake of it however it was not as intense as the Croydon curtailments a few years ago. In relation to the 232 good proposal to serve the new development… but takes it further from NP can imagine all changeovers may take place at Arnos Grove. |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 31, 2023 8:54:17 GMT
One way of keeping the 123 at Wood Green would be to merge the 67 and 329 into one route although they have different frequencies and operators at the moment. The loss of the round the corner Westbury Avenue/High Road link is the only real problem though and TfL probably take the view that people can make alternative arrangements, ie walk, given the distances involved because every journey clearly doesn't matter! Dalston to Enfield is a long trip especially with the traffic. If you want to extend the 67, you could extend it to North Finchley to help out the 221 which does get packed Dalston to Enfield is about 80 minutes so should be manageable but yes the 67 to North Finchley is another option. |
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Post by WH241 on Oct 31, 2023 9:48:57 GMT
Well people have brought up lost links on the 123 as a result of the cutback to Turnpike Lane so surely the 121 would be a better candidate to cutback given the 329 parallels it from Palmers Green and provides similar links to Enfield Town Centre? Passengers would be able to change onto a 141 or 329 between AD and WN. Would also shorten the 121 slightly and remove it from the traffic hotspot that is Wood Green High Road. TBH, if we had decent transport planners in place, the plan should be to remove traffic from Wood Green High Road rather than remove something like the 121 or 123. Even if the traffic was removed you will only move the problem further down the road and the affect other areas and the bus routes there. It’s been suggested that Wood Green High Road has around 80 buses per hour during the peaks and this a higher number than needed so perhaps on this occasion it’s the buses that are causing the congestion. |
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Post by mkay315 on Oct 31, 2023 10:21:41 GMT
Dalston to Enfield is a long trip especially with the traffic. If you want to extend the 67, you could extend it to North Finchley to help out the 221 which does get packed Dalston to Enfield is about 80 minutes so should be manageable but yes the 67 to North Finchley is another option. Question is if we went by the North Finchley approach where would it stand as you have two Superloop routes terminating there, not to mention the 112, 13, 460 and the 134 stopping there too. |
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Post by mkay315 on Oct 31, 2023 10:25:47 GMT
This will imply that Wood Green will have 2 routes to Trafalgar Square - 29 and 91 Overall ok (not my patch of London) although I would have kept the 123 to Wood Green. Why not keep the 91 till Turnpike Lane (as 91/232 will have a common section anyway) and keep the 123 to Wood Green? Very similar to 194 & 450 where both routes split up for the entire route too. 91 extension is a good move I have always though Crouch End was an odd terminus. In relation to other comments in relation to the 91/N91 it certainly does put WN in a good position to run the route with Electrics. Not too familiar with the area as a whole but cutting the 123 to Turnpike Lane Station will not do too much I would say as there are plenty of buses between Turnpike Lane and Wood Green. Personally I would cut the 67 to Turnpike Lane Station instead of the 123 or as suggested to extend the 67 to North Finchley. This 123 cut I think is cutting routes for the sake of it however it was not as intense as the Croydon curtailments a few years ago. In relation to the 232 good proposal to serve the new development… but takes it further from NP can imagine all changeovers may take place at Arnos Grove. In regards to cutting the 67 back to Turnpike Lane it would be a VERY short route. It already got cut back from the Aldgate end (controversially). Cutting the 67 back would be the death knell in my opinion |
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Post by mkay315 on Oct 31, 2023 10:29:19 GMT
One way of keeping the 123 at Wood Green would be to merge the 67 and 329 into one route although they have different frequencies and operators at the moment. The loss of the round the corner Westbury Avenue/High Road link is the only real problem though and TfL probably take the view that people can make alternative arrangements, ie walk, given the distances involved because every journey clearly doesn't matter! Dalston to Enfield is a long trip especially with the traffic. If you want to extend the 67, you could extend it to North Finchley to help out the 221 which does get packed This was something that myself and VMH2537 discussed a few years back on here as one suggestion but the space aspect of things could be an issue on the North Finchley end. Now with the superloop routes coming it will be even more evident. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Oct 31, 2023 10:40:23 GMT
Dalston to Enfield is about 80 minutes so should be manageable but yes the 67 to North Finchley is another option. Question is if we went by the North Finchley approach where would it stand as you have two Superloop routes terminating there, not to mention the 112, 13, 460 and the 134 stopping there too. The SL1 will already support the 221 to an extent between North Finchley and New Southgate, so could just extend the 67 as far as Arnos Grove? |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 31, 2023 11:16:29 GMT
Not only that but why I asked my original question is it's this sort of change that can lead people to deserting public transport. The 91 is a good change but it's then paired up with the 123 change which something that only makes sense in terms of making space of the 91 but doesn't for passengers requiring Wood Green. I know the forum lacks any trust in TfL but maybe they have usage data for the 123 and the cut back can be justified. Changes have to be made sometimes and you can’t keep using the deserting public transport every time you don’t like a proposal. TfL always still has to balance its books! The recent bailout doesn’t mean it has unlimited funds. I think it is not justified. TfL have ambushed various proposals even though data shows it has high usage and has alienated people. They reduced the frequency on the W12 some years ago because they did not want to spend the money to put another bus on the schedule even though ridership was doing well. After the drop from 20-30 mins the people using it declined massively. If you have anything like a vomit, mechanical, tyre blow out, then it instantly becomes an 1 hour service! The 123 cut back is only seems to be for stand space as to give the 91 the space. The 232 re-direction is only to cover this. The nonsense of "to improve the pedestrian environment" on Wood Green High Rd reeks of TfL and local council bull poo. No wonder people are deserting the High Streets, these bufoons and part of the main orchestra-tors of this. As for the proposals it is an overkill for another stupid housing development most likely with stupid overpriced flats on former industrial lands. Good luck on sending the 91 that way. The roads leading up to that way is a dump and made worse by LTN's in that area. Station Rd has W3's and 184's easily losing 10-20 minutes at times in the morning and evening peaks. I can easily see 91's that are on time from Crouch end be 10 late by the time the hit the nonsense of Hornsey High St, then the time they get onto Station Rd another 10 mins and be 20+ late by the time they get to the stand. What they should have done was axe the 67 and extend the 329 over its route or vice versa. |
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Post by DT 11 on Oct 31, 2023 11:34:09 GMT
Very similar to 194 & 450 where both routes split up for the entire route too. 91 extension is a good move I have always though Crouch End was an odd terminus. In relation to other comments in relation to the 91/N91 it certainly does put WN in a good position to run the route with Electrics. Not too familiar with the area as a whole but cutting the 123 to Turnpike Lane Station will not do too much I would say as there are plenty of buses between Turnpike Lane and Wood Green. Personally I would cut the 67 to Turnpike Lane Station instead of the 123 or as suggested to extend the 67 to North Finchley. This 123 cut I think is cutting routes for the sake of it however it was not as intense as the Croydon curtailments a few years ago. In relation to the 232 good proposal to serve the new development… but takes it further from NP can imagine all changeovers may take place at Arnos Grove. In regards to cutting the 67 back to Turnpike Lane it would be a VERY short route. It already got cut back from the Aldgate end (controversially). Cutting the 67 back would be the death knell in my opinion Hence why I suggested it. |
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Post by VMH2537 on Oct 31, 2023 11:46:04 GMT
Question is if we went by the North Finchley approach where would it stand as you have two Superloop routes terminating there, not to mention the 112, 13, 460 and the 134 stopping there too. The SL1 will already support the 221 to an extent between North Finchley and New Southgate, so could just extend the 67 as far as Arnos Grove? However, North Finchley is where the main flow of demand starts, hence is why the previous 5bph shorts were run there. Whilst extending the 67 would be useful, it's going to be excess capacity at the same time as I dont think 13bph necessary needed. What I think should be implemented is a Superloop express service between North Finchley and Turnpike Lane to allow faster and simpler journeys between the Finchley and the Wood Green flows whilst investing in capacity at the same time. |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 31, 2023 12:22:31 GMT
I know the forum lacks any trust in TfL but maybe they have usage data for the 123 and the cut back can be justified. Changes have to be made sometimes and you can’t keep using the deserting public transport every time you don’t like a proposal. TfL always still has to balance its books! The recent bailout doesn’t mean it has unlimited funds. I think it is not justified. TfL have ambushed various proposals even though data shows it has high usage and has alienated people. They reduced the frequency on the W12 some years ago because they did not want to spend the money to put another bus on the schedule even though ridership was doing well. After the drop from 20-30 mins the people using it declined massively. If you have anything like a vomit, mechanical, tyre blow out, then it instantly becomes an 1 hour service! The 123 cut back is only seems to be for stand space as to give the 91 the space. The 232 re-direction is only to cover this. The nonsense of "to improve the pedestrian environment" on Wood Green High Rd reeks of TfL and local council bull poo. No wonder people are deserting the High Streets, these bufoons and part of the main orchestra-tors of this. As for the proposals it is an overkill for another stupid housing development most likely with stupid overpriced flats on former industrial lands. Good luck on sending the 91 that way. The roads leading up to that way is a dump and made worse by LTN's in that area. Station Rd has W3's and 184's easily losing 10-20 minutes at times in the morning and evening peaks. I can easily see 91's that are on time from Crouch end be 10 late by the time the hit the nonsense of Hornsey High St, then the time they get onto Station Rd another 10 mins and be 20+ late by the time they get to the stand. What they should have done was axe the 67 and extend the 329 over its route or vice versa. In fairness people are deserting High Streets everywhere due in no small part to extortionate parking charges but I understand your point. This does seem overkill and I wonder about the 232 rerouting but I guess S106 funds are involved and they have to be spent/wasted somewhere. I agree that merging the 67 and 329 on an 8-9min frequency would be the best option and the 123 and 232 can stay as they are. |
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Post by enviroPB on Oct 31, 2023 15:51:43 GMT
It seems my trip to see my friend in Wood Green last week was very well timed! We had a chat about the development and she was surprised at how big the Heartlands are but was devoid of a bus service.
I strongly suspect that in addition to the stand swapping exercise for the 91, 123 and 232, it seems this change is likely to be cost neutral. Potentially three buses culled from the 123 at Turnpike Lane will directly go to the 91's extension, and I assume the 232 will see no change to its PVR. The new stand on Mayes Road until 2028 will take it close to the High Street, a 3 minute walk depending on where it's located; but ultimately doesn't serve the Heartlands, it's just marginally closer to it.
It's a shame the 123 is getting curtailed to an already bulging Turnpike Lane bus station. Towards Good Green I assume punters get frustrated from the normally standstill Westbury Avenue and walk, but there's enough patronage from the High Road towards Tottenham and further afield for the round the corner link removal to be criticised.
If the 232 was rerouted over the 91's routing before heading to Turnpike Lane, that would be the best outcome for this development. However only having on the 91 which heads to Trouble Trafalgar Square with its many demos will not make for a reliable section. Better two unreliable routes from either direction and the 123 untouched if I were at the helm of the Heartlands planning.
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Post by enviroPB on Oct 31, 2023 15:55:01 GMT
Hmm, not a bad set of changes. Terrible development name but that’s another issue. Again I am surprised TfL aren’t using the 91 extension as an opportunity to curtail it to Aldwych to maintain reliability. Due to the new layout, buses on the 91 technically can't terminate at Aldwych. If they were to, the last stop would be Holborn which would then pose the question of why the bus is being sent along Kingsway to turn around. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Oct 31, 2023 17:20:00 GMT
Hmm, not a bad set of changes. Terrible development name but that’s another issue. Again I am surprised TfL aren’t using the 91 extension as an opportunity to curtail it to Aldwych to maintain reliability. Due to the new layout, buses on the 91 technically can't terminate at Aldwych. If they were to, the last stop would be Holborn which would then pose the question of why the bus is being sent along Kinsway to turn around. An alighting stop would need to be added on the east side of the Aldwych but otherwise it seems feasible if not for the possible lack of stand space. I don't think there are any banned turns which would prevent this. The lack of a shared stop departing north from Aldwych might leave much to be desired though.
In a sense, another possible solution to this which out of coincidence was posted on the fantasy/proposal thread not long ago was extending the 91 to Waterloo in lieu of Trafalgar Square which would avoid the Strand and restore a KX/Waterloo link.
Overall, will be interesting to see if this proposal diverts any passengers from the 29 who would be heading into Central London from Wood Green.
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Post by greenboy on Oct 31, 2023 18:59:33 GMT
Due to the new layout, buses on the 91 technically can't terminate at Aldwych. If they were to, the last stop would be Holborn which would then pose the question of why the bus is being sent along Kinsway to turn around. An alighting stop would need to be added on the east side of the Aldwych but otherwise it seems feasible if not for the possible lack of stand space. I don't think there are any banned turns which would prevent this. The lack of a shared stop departing north from Aldwych might leave much to be desired though.
In a sense, another possible solution to this which out of coincidence was posted on the fantasy/proposal thread not long ago was extending the 91 to Waterloo in lieu of Trafalgar Square which would avoid the Strand and restore a KX/Waterloo link.
Overall, will be interesting to see if this proposal diverts any passengers from the 29 who would be heading into Central London from Wood Green.
I don't think curtailing the 91 at Aldwych or rerouting it to Waterloo is a good idea in fact ideally I think there should be a 87/91 combo at least from Clapham Junction to King's Cross with the outer ends covered by something else. |
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