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Post by gwiwer on Mar 11, 2024 8:41:22 GMT
Cheers. I am aware that Stagecoach want all buses ZE by 2035 but wonder if the smaller operators in Essex for example will follow? Iinteresting to see will be the coaches whether National Xpress or Oxford Tube etc. Think of it like the conversion from step-entrance to low-floor. The biggest cities (i.e. the best-funded operations) can afford the technology first. As they renew their fleets so the first generation vehicles of the type get cascaded out to regional fleets whilst still in reasonably good shape. The next step is that those fleets in turn cascade tired old vehicles to the small operators who can often afford nothing better but win contracts because they have low overheads and costs. Couple that cascading process with Government-enforced and perhaps financially-assisted legislation to bring about change and you will eventually see much lower emission (or even ZE) buses nationwide but not in the short term. IT is still possible to operate step-entrance vehicles within certain very restricted conditions such as for not more than 20 days per year and / or on special services which do not form part of the normal public transport network. The same may be true for Euro6 and older as newer technology becomes the nationwide norm.
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Post by yunus on Mar 12, 2024 23:40:58 GMT
Random Question:
What is the nearest Diesel operated routes to Tufnell Park in NW London?
Not knowing the area well, I would say it is the 41 & W5 plus other Metroline routes from Archway but happy to be corrected?
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Post by borneobus on Mar 13, 2024 0:47:49 GMT
Random Question: What is the nearest Diesel operated routes to Tufnell Park in NW London? Not knowing the area well, I would say it is the 41 & W5 plus other Metroline routes from Archway but happy to be corrected? Kentish Town 393 Gospel Oak C11 Archway 41/234/C11/W5 with Metroline allocating a small number of VW/TE on 263 and VW on 210 that are now predominantly hybrid
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Post by borneobus on Mar 13, 2024 0:49:44 GMT
Random Question: What is the nearest Diesel operated routes to Tufnell Park in NW London? Not knowing the area well, I would say it is the 41 & W5 plus other Metroline routes from Archway but happy to be corrected? Kentish Town 393 Gospel Oak C11 Archway 41/234/C11/W5 with Metroline PB allocating a small number (pretty much daily) of VW/TE on 263 and W allocating a small number of VW on 210 that are both now predominantly hybrid routes I personally would describe Tufnell Park as 'North' London
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Post by COBO on Mar 21, 2024 8:48:28 GMT
Why in the 90's where operators like London Buslines, Armchair, Sovereign, Grey Green, Kentish Buses and London & District / Arriva The Shires were allowed to operate buses that weren't red in London?
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Post by kmkcheng on Mar 21, 2024 9:24:41 GMT
Why in the 90's where operators like London Buslines, Armchair, Sovereign, Grey Green, Kentish Buses and London & District / Arriva The Shires were allowed to operate buses that weren't red in London? There wasn’t a red rule back then. The operators initially could use whatever colour and livery they wanted. Don’t remember the exact years but around early 2000s an 80% red rule was implemented which is how we had red buses with coloured skirts. A few years later, an 100% red rule was implemented which is what we have today. I’m sure there’s someone on here that has the exact years the rules were applied.
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Post by southlondon413 on Mar 21, 2024 10:26:42 GMT
Why in the 90's where operators like London Buslines, Armchair, Sovereign, Grey Green, Kentish Buses and London & District / Arriva The Shires were allowed to operate buses that weren't red in London? There wasn’t a red rule back then. The operators initially could use whatever colour and livery they wanted. Don’t remember the exact years but around early 2000s an 80% red rule was implemented which is how we had red buses with coloured skirts. A few years later, an 100% red rule was implemented which is what we have today. I’m sure there’s someone on here that has the exact years the rules were applied. Not sure where the 80% rule came from but it likely came with the creation of TfL. The 100% rule for definite was applied on vehicles new and refurbished after October 2010. Some operators like Metroline chose to repaint everything all red, others like GAL didn’t bother which is why there were still vehicles with the charcoal skirt until just a couple of years ago. If I’m not mistaken the last vehicle in London that came new with a livery was GALs E173 which was a late addition to the 337s allocation but went straight to the 453.
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Post by COBO on Mar 21, 2024 10:34:11 GMT
There wasn’t a red rule back then. The operators initially could use whatever colour and livery they wanted. Don’t remember the exact years but around early 2000s an 80% red rule was implemented which is how we had red buses with coloured skirts. A few years later, an 100% red rule was implemented which is what we have today. I’m sure there’s someone on here that has the exact years the rules were applied. Not sure where the 80% rule came from but it likely came with the creation of TfL. The 100% rule for definite was applied on vehicles new and refurbished after October 2010. Some operators like Metroline chose to repaint everything all red, others like GAL didn’t bother which is why there were still vehicles with the charcoal skirt until just a couple of years ago. If I’m not mistaken the last vehicle in London that came new with a livery was GALs E173 which was a late addition to the 337s allocation but went straight to the 453. Are there any GAL vehicle still in the charcoal livery?
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Post by southlondon413 on Mar 21, 2024 10:35:09 GMT
Not sure where the 80% rule came from but it likely came with the creation of TfL. The 100% rule for definite was applied on vehicles new and refurbished after October 2010. Some operators like Metroline chose to repaint everything all red, others like GAL didn’t bother which is why there were still vehicles with the charcoal skirt until just a couple of years ago. If I’m not mistaken the last vehicle in London that came new with a livery was GALs E173 which was a late addition to the 337s allocation but went straight to the 453. Are there any GAL vehicle still in the charcoal livery? As far as I’m aware it’s only ones in the commercial fleet. All their TfL service vehicles should be red now.
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Post by gwiwer on Mar 21, 2024 11:03:53 GMT
Are there any GAL vehicle still in the charcoal livery? As far as I’m aware it’s only ones in the commercial fleet. All their TfL service vehicles should be red now. The "100% red" rule, which still allows for very limited non-red areas such as the black on some types which is a designed-in feature, plus the numerous allover adverts, came about because of growing complaints that "London buses should be red" when many suddenly were not. It didn't help that certain contractors also used old and shabby buses cascaded into London which in the eyes of the public and certain politicians were smoky oily breakdowns on wheels. Many contracted routes were suburban but the Grey Green (green / white) buses on the 24 were very high-profile and passed Parliament. Some of the suburban ones were quite well-known such as the 65 Ealing - Chessington (as it then was) with Armchair's orange and white buses. In a few areas the red "London" bus was in danger of vanishing; Romford was one such where Frontrunner's green / cream buses, Dix in yellow / brown / white "p*ss and poo" livery (as it was sometimes known locally) and Ensign's yellow / white ones seemed to be more common than the "proper" red ones. There were also issues around destination clarity and provision with many of the drafted-in buses having blind-boxes incapable of taking London-style screens and offering only minimal or small-font displays. As this was becoming a political issue the edict went out that henceforth buses on London contracts must be at least 80% red and later "100%" red. Some today are around 75% red with all the black rear ends and staircase panels. The requirements for destination displays have also changed through TfL's years meaning we now have no "via" information at all (unless there are still any older vehicles fitted with such blinds in use) and both ultimate and qualifying points when necessary which are not always as well-understood as they could be.
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Post by southlondon413 on Mar 21, 2024 11:06:49 GMT
As far as I’m aware it’s only ones in the commercial fleet. All their TfL service vehicles should be red now. The "100% red" rule, which still allows for very limited non-red areas such as the black on some types which is a designed-in feature, plus the numerous allover adverts, came about because of growing complaints that "London buses should be red" when many suddenly were not. It didn't help that certain contractors also used old and shabby buses cascaded into London which in the eyes of the public and certain politicians were smoky oily breakdowns on wheels. Many contracted routes were suburban but the Grey Green (green / white) buses on the 24 were very high-profile and passed Parliament. Some of the suburban ones were quite well-known such as the 65 Ealing - Chessington (as it then was) with Armchair's orange and white buses. In a few areas the red "London" bus was in danger of vanishing; Romford was one such where Frontrunner's green / cream buses, Dix in yellow / brown / white "p*ss and poo" livery (as it was sometimes known locally) and Ensign's yellow / white ones seemed to be more common than the "proper" red ones. There were also issues around destination clarity and provision with many of the drafted-in buses having blind-boxes incapable of taking London-style screens and offering only minimal or small-font displays. As this was becoming a political issue the edict went out that henceforth buses on London contracts must be at least 80% red and later "100%" red. Some today are around 75% red with all the black rear ends and staircase panels. The requirements for destination displays have also changed through TfL's years meaning we now have no "via" information at all (unless there are still any older vehicles fitted with such blinds in use) and both ultimate and qualifying points when necessary which are not always as well-understood as they could be. Thanks for mansplaining 😂
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Post by vjaska on Mar 21, 2024 12:45:05 GMT
There wasn’t a red rule back then. The operators initially could use whatever colour and livery they wanted. Don’t remember the exact years but around early 2000s an 80% red rule was implemented which is how we had red buses with coloured skirts. A few years later, an 100% red rule was implemented which is what we have today. I’m sure there’s someone on here that has the exact years the rules were applied. Not sure where the 80% rule came from but it likely came with the creation of TfL. The 100% rule for definite was applied on vehicles new and refurbished after October 2010. Some operators like Metroline chose to repaint everything all red, others like GAL didn’t bother which is why there were still vehicles with the charcoal skirt until just a couple of years ago. If I’m not mistaken the last vehicle in London that came new with a livery was GALs E173 which was a late addition to the 337s allocation but went straight to the 453. Aside from E’s that were ordered for the private hire fleet, E173 was the last to turn up in the livery. It was originally ordered as part of the 337 order but was then held back until the 453’s order and added to that instead
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Post by redexpress on Mar 21, 2024 12:56:49 GMT
Why in the 90's where operators like London Buslines, Armchair, Sovereign, Grey Green, Kentish Buses and London & District / Arriva The Shires were allowed to operate buses that weren't red in London? There wasn’t a red rule back then. The operators initially could use whatever colour and livery they wanted. Don’t remember the exact years but around early 2000s an 80% red rule was implemented which is how we had red buses with coloured skirts. A few years later, an 100% red rule was implemented which is what we have today. I’m sure there’s someone on here that has the exact years the rules were applied. The 80% red rule was first applied to buses entering Zone 1 on contracts starting from late 1996 onwards.
The rule was then extended London-wide for all contracts starting from early 2002 onwards.
From around 2005 the rule changed; instead of 80% red, buses now had to be all-red from the skirt line upwards. This is what led Arriva to drop the "cow horns" from their livery. Metroline also changed to a shallower skirt as from 2004 in anticipation of the rule change.
From 2011 onwards the requirement changed to 100% red.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 21, 2024 13:26:46 GMT
There wasn’t a red rule back then. The operators initially could use whatever colour and livery they wanted. Don’t remember the exact years but around early 2000s an 80% red rule was implemented which is how we had red buses with coloured skirts. A few years later, an 100% red rule was implemented which is what we have today. I’m sure there’s someone on here that has the exact years the rules were applied. The 80% red rule was first applied to buses entering Zone 1 on contracts starting from late 1996 onwards.
The rule was then extended London-wide for all contracts starting from early 2002 onwards.
From around 2005 the rule changed; instead of 80% red, buses now had to be all-red from the skirt line upwards. This is what led Arriva to drop the "cow horns" from their livery. Metroline also changed to a shallower skirt as from 2004 in anticipation of the rule change.
From 2011 onwards the requirement changed to 100% red.
The 80% red rule for zone 1 came about due to complaints that the red bus was disappearing following privatisation and many key red bus zone one were being lost upon re-tender to other operators. This say Capital Citybus have to come up with a red based livery when they won the 91, 25 etc. The skirt line rule came about when the bendy buses were introduced. IIRC any pastel colour was allowed below the skirt. Some operators started painting the buses in the skirtline rule, before the rules had even been applied. I recall both Stagecoach and Arriva did this from 2004. From 2008 Arriva no longer bothered repainting buses with the yellow skirt line and went all-over red.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 21, 2024 20:13:22 GMT
There wasn’t a red rule back then. The operators initially could use whatever colour and livery they wanted. Don’t remember the exact years but around early 2000s an 80% red rule was implemented which is how we had red buses with coloured skirts. A few years later, an 100% red rule was implemented which is what we have today. I’m sure there’s someone on here that has the exact years the rules were applied. The 80% red rule was first applied to buses entering Zone 1 on contracts starting from late 1996 onwards. The rule was then extended London-wide for all contracts starting from early 2002 onwards. From around 2005 the rule changed; instead of 80% red, buses now had to be all-red from the skirt line upwards. This is what led Arriva to drop the "cow horns" from their livery. Metroline also changed to a shallower skirt as from 2004 in anticipation of the rule change. From 2011 onwards the requirement changed to 100% red.
During 2004 LU also ditched the white roof with the TLAs on the 94 having them but the VE/VLEs on the 9, 49 not having them. Bromley was another area the non red livery had greatly reduced with the 119, 126, 138, 146, 246, 261, 320, 336, 352, 354, 358, 367 all using non red buses.
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