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Post by rif153 on Jul 7, 2020 20:03:52 GMT
That's a very vague question. Hybrids are definitely greener than the diesels they replaced being Euro VI so lots of toxic particles produced are filtered and burnt rather than being emitted. Also consider the stop start technology which wasn't on older buses ensures that when buses are idling (as they often are in London) they aren't polluting the atmosphere. I also believe that hybrids generate their own electricity (by vibrations from the diesel engines) which is environmentally friendly. But don’t hybrids need diesel as a fuel source? Yes they do. Everything is relative. You have to consider that if you're asking the question of if hybrids are green or not then its really a question of are hybrids green relative to what. Relative to more polluting vehicles that they replaced, yes hybrids are greener. However you could also argue that relative to newer buses which produce less emissions than hybrids aren't as green as newer buses. As I say the vague nature of your question of if ''hybrids are really green?'' meant that I choice to take the position that they are more environmentally friendly than what they replaced.
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Post by COBO on Jul 7, 2020 20:12:10 GMT
But don’t hybrids need diesel as a fuel source? Yes they do. Everything is relative. You have to consider that if you're asking the question of if hybrids are green or not then its really a question of are hybrids green relative to what. Relative to more polluting vehicles that they replaced, yes hybrids are greener. However you could also argue that relative to newer buses which produce less emissions than hybrids aren't as green as newer buses. As I say the vague nature of your question of if ''hybrids are really green?'' meant that I choice to take the position that they are more environmentally friendly than what they replaced. Okay then are hybrids environmentally friendly then compared to their Electric counterparts and Diesel counterparts? And because hybrids drink diesel do they produce fumes?
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Metroline
Jul 7, 2020 21:17:29 GMT
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 7, 2020 21:17:29 GMT
Hybrids supposedly use around 37% less emmisions through a combination of stop/start when idle and in some cases the acceleration of the vehicle is powered by the battery (not the diesel engine, which is when the most fuel is used on traditional vehicles) aswell as the battery to store energy when braking and powering all the electrics on the bus (air cooling, lights etc). A true hybrid should be just diesel motor running steady that keeps the battery charged to drive the wheels.
A smart hybrid simply has stop/start and the wheels are driven directly by the diesel engine with the battery powering all the buses electrics to save a bit a fuel.
Whilst I'm not aware of it in bus form there is also the plug in hybrid where a battery is charged up and will drive the car up till it hits 20mph. Then the engine kicks in to drive the car and offer some recharge to the battery. Again the emissions created by accelerating are saved and when in town you could be travelling at 20mph for a quite some distance.
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 7, 2020 22:54:42 GMT
What make you say they take up a lot of space? Pictures I have seen have tanks under ground just like petrol and diesel, and are dispensed by a petrol pump sized dispensing unit. I'm putting it in the context of 20 vehicles, a whole garage of hydrogens would be quite a tight fit. Large number of tanks could be tedious especially with the pressure needed to control hydrogen Why would you need large number of tanks? Why not one large ones. All the pictures I can find of hydrogen refueling sites have no tanks visible, presumably underground. From reading the hydrogen is stored at low pressure and compressors create pressure. I would have thought one hydrogen pump would take up a lot less space than many charging points.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 7, 2020 23:39:30 GMT
That will cause problems in the future when hydrogen becomes successful and it needs to rolled to all the garages. I can't exactly talk from TfL's point of view about hydrogen vehicles, it's been mentioned but it seems like electric is more of the focus point. Many garages across London are limited in space and even EV charging is difficult, such as Harrow (SO) and even Uxbridge (UX), space is a premium and addition of hydrogen facilities won't make it easier. What is best is for massive garages built from the ground, similar to something like WH or GW but then that's for a few years to come for most garages so all i can say is wait and see I think when it gets to the stage where all new DDs also have to be electric, and the number of existing diesels/hybrids is reducing, operators may make changes to the layout of garages if possible/needed, or replace certain garages with larger or more suitable sites.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 2:18:37 GMT
I can't exactly talk from TfL's point of view about hydrogen vehicles, it's been mentioned but it seems like electric is more of the focus point. Many garages across London are limited in space and even EV charging is difficult, such as Harrow (SO) and even Uxbridge (UX), space is a premium and addition of hydrogen facilities won't make it easier. What is best is for massive garages built from the ground, similar to something like WH or GW but then that's for a few years to come for most garages so all i can say is wait and see I think when it gets to the stage where all new DDs also have to be electric, and the number of existing diesels/hybrids is reducing, operators may make changes to the layout of garages if possible/needed, or replace certain garages with larger or more suitable sites. It's exactly that basically, the "electric plague" hasn't yet reached all garages but it give it a couple years and companies will have to start taking considerations!
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Post by foxhat on Jul 8, 2020 8:19:46 GMT
I'm putting it in the context of 20 vehicles, a whole garage of hydrogens would be quite a tight fit. Large number of tanks could be tedious especially with the pressure needed to control hydrogen Why would you need large number of tanks? Why not one large ones. All the pictures I can find of hydrogen refueling sites have no tanks visible, presumably underground. From reading the hydrogen is stored at low pressure and compressors create pressure. I would have thought one hydrogen pump would take up a lot less space than many charging points. You are correct. At Perivale there will be no change to the layout or capacity of the garage.
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Post by foxhat on Jul 8, 2020 8:19:59 GMT
It also helps that PV is an outdoors garage. I don't believe an indoors garage site will get converted to hydrogen. And if you want to know why, just think of the changes that too place to the RV1, then latterly 444 to avoid either route stopping underneath a bridge or building
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Post by foxhat on Jul 8, 2020 8:35:50 GMT
I can't exactly talk from TfL's point of view about hydrogen vehicles, it's been mentioned but it seems like electric is more of the focus point. Many garages across London are limited in space and even EV charging is difficult, such as Harrow (SO) and even Uxbridge (UX), space is a premium and addition of hydrogen facilities won't make it easier. What is best is for massive garages built from the ground, similar to something like WH or GW but then that's for a few years to come for most garages so all i can say is wait and see I think when it gets to the stage where all new DDs also have to be electric, and the number of existing diesels/hybrids is reducing, operators may make changes to the layout of garages if possible/needed, or replace certain garages with larger or more suitable sites. I'm not sure we will be in a situation where all DD route HAVE to be electric for quite a while. The SD conversion was inevitable as hybrid SDs never really took off. The two main issues with the electric tech are the lost capacity at garage sites and the limiting mileage range. Quite a few routes have vehicles which operate daily mileages well over the 130mile (for SD) or 150mile (for DD) range which must be scheduled. This will often result in additional vehicles having to be ordered just to be able to run a route normally. With the electric tech at the moment, electric contracts require additional fleet spares to cover, an extra cost. Now if TfL were in a good financial position then I could understand the mass conversion but at the moment there is just no economic justification. You will find that most operators with inner London garages in north or west London will not be able to 'move' garage sites as housing takes priority. Moving further out there are more industrial areas however rarely are these is suitable positions for operators to move in to. Abellio were lucky with their new Southall site by Metroline's new Alperton site is going to only have 2/3 of the capacity of the existing site, so that just pushes the problem elsewhere. It is this time when we look at all the garages we have lost in the past and think just how useful they could be today. Namely; Chalk Farm, Finchley, Hendon, Muswell Hill ... possibly Hammersmith & Victoria too.
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Post by LK65EBO on Jul 8, 2020 8:47:51 GMT
I think when it gets to the stage where all new DDs also have to be electric, and the number of existing diesels/hybrids is reducing, operators may make changes to the layout of garages if possible/needed, or replace certain garages with larger or more suitable sites. I'm not sure we will be in a situation where all DD route HAVE to be electric for quite a while. The SD conversion was inevitable as hybrid SDs never really took off. The two main issues with the electric tech are the lost capacity at garage sites and the limiting mileage range. Quite a few routes have vehicles which operate daily mileages well over the 130mile (for SD) or 150mile (for DD) range which must be scheduled. This will often result in additional vehicles having to be ordered just to be able to run a route normally. With the electric tech at the moment, electric contracts require additional fleet spares to cover, an extra cost. Now if TfL were in a good financial position then I could understand the mass conversion but at the moment there is just no economic justification. You will find that most operators with inner London garages in north or west London will not be able to 'move' garage sites as housing takes priority. Moving further out there are more industrial areas however rarely are these is suitable positions for operators to move in to. Abellio were lucky with their new Southall site by Metroline's new Alperton site is going to only have 2/3 of the capacity of the existing site, so that just pushes the problem elsewhere. It is this time when we look at all the garages we have lost in the past and think just how useful they could be today. Namely; Chalk Farm, Finchley, Hendon, Muswell Hill ... possibly Hammersmith & Victoria too. Turnham Green (V) would have been useful as well but I believe that has been replaced by Stamford Brook (V). Wasn't the former Hammersmith garage on the site as we now know to be Hammersmith Bus Station?
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 8, 2020 9:20:43 GMT
I'm not sure we will be in a situation where all DD route HAVE to be electric for quite a while. The SD conversion was inevitable as hybrid SDs never really took off. The two main issues with the electric tech are the lost capacity at garage sites and the limiting mileage range. Quite a few routes have vehicles which operate daily mileages well over the 130mile (for SD) or 150mile (for DD) range which must be scheduled. This will often result in additional vehicles having to be ordered just to be able to run a route normally. With the electric tech at the moment, electric contracts require additional fleet spares to cover, an extra cost. Now if TfL were in a good financial position then I could understand the mass conversion but at the moment there is just no economic justification. You will find that most operators with inner London garages in north or west London will not be able to 'move' garage sites as housing takes priority. Moving further out there are more industrial areas however rarely are these is suitable positions for operators to move in to. Abellio were lucky with their new Southall site by Metroline's new Alperton site is going to only have 2/3 of the capacity of the existing site, so that just pushes the problem elsewhere. It is this time when we look at all the garages we have lost in the past and think just how useful they could be today. Namely; Chalk Farm, Finchley, Hendon, Muswell Hill ... possibly Hammersmith & Victoria too. Turnham Green (V) would have been useful as well but I believe that has been replaced by Stamford Brook (V). Wasn't the former Hammersmith garage on the site as we now know to be Hammersmith Bus Station? Not quite. Hammersmith (R) Riverside BUS garage, the facade has been retained, the doors are now windows, is on the west side of the one way system As it was when a garage attached (Not my photo) Attachment Deleted
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Metroline
Jul 8, 2020 11:06:40 GMT
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Post by MoEnviro on Jul 8, 2020 11:06:40 GMT
It also helps that PV is an outdoors garage. I don't believe an indoors garage site will get converted to hydrogen. And if you want to know why, just think of the changes that too place to the RV1, then latterly 444 to avoid either route stopping underneath a bridge or builin Didn’t the RV1’s stand under a bridge at Tower Gateway?
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Metroline
Jul 8, 2020 11:48:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by vjaska on Jul 8, 2020 11:48:55 GMT
It also helps that PV is an outdoors garage. I don't believe an indoors garage site will get converted to hydrogen. And if you want to know why, just think of the changes that too place to the RV1, then latterly 444 to avoid either route stopping underneath a bridge or builin Didn’t the RV1’s stand under a bridge at Tower Gateway? The stand was roughly half underneath and half in the open but from memory, RV1's would stand in the part that's open air and take on passengers underneath the bridge instead.
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Post by foxhat on Jul 8, 2020 12:29:28 GMT
It also helps that PV is an outdoors garage. I don't believe an indoors garage site will get converted to hydrogen. And if you want to know why, just think of the changes that too place to the RV1, then latterly 444 to avoid either route stopping underneath a bridge or builin Didn’t the RV1’s stand under a bridge at Tower Gateway? Officially they had to stand in the open just prior to the Fenchurch Street rail bridge. If you Google streetview it you will see what they did. The routing had to be adjusted around London Bridge, rerouted away from Bermondsey Street, to avoid buses having to stop under London Bridge station, because if one went off there it would take most of the Southeastern network with it!
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Post by vjaska on Jul 8, 2020 13:38:31 GMT
Didn’t the RV1’s stand under a bridge at Tower Gateway? Officially they had to stand in the open just prior to the Fenchurch Street rail bridge. If you Google streetview it you will see what they did. The routing had to be adjusted around London Bridge, rerouted away from Bermondsey Street, to avoid buses having to stop under London Bridge station, because if one went off there it would take most of the Southeastern network with it! Although they were happy with them serving the first stop at Tower Gateway under the bridge - the buses would stand in the open air bit but the stand doubles up as the first & last stop and when picking up people, it was under the bridge.
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